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02/18/2008 02:12:03 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
The simplest solution would be just for the SC to give more weight to the photographer's opinion than the commentor's perceived right and delete more freely for reported posts.
If it really is valuable, constructive criticism then maybe leave it but err on the side of supporting the photographers. |
Perfect. Err on the side of the photographer's wishes. This is the way it should be. This reduces or eliminates the need for an out-and-out delete feature. |
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02/18/2008 02:12:17 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by Gordon:
The simplest solution would be just for the SC to give more weight to the photographer's opinion than the commentor's perceived right and delete more freely for reported posts.
If it really is valuable, constructive criticism then maybe leave it but err on the side of supporting the photographers. |
Hear Hear! |
Agreed.
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02/18/2008 02:16:31 PM · #103 |
I do think that a note should be sent to the commenter letting them know that the comment was deleted and why.
A bit of "education" on the commenters side could not be a bad thing in reducing the problem at its root.
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02/18/2008 02:17:28 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Don't tell me you are advocating only super-models for nude ... because that would seriously affect my opinion of you. |
No. There's two types of nude photography. One is the artistic form of lines, form, and shape in usually a very controlled lighting environment. Tasteful and easy to appreciate the human body in it's amazing form and intricacies. The second type of nude is the sexual, promiscuous type that implies the sexual act or some engagement of sex. The kind that can create a lustful (or repulsive) response. It's the second type that if the model is not attractive (IMO or some viewer in general) then it's not appealing. Again, attractiveness is subjective.
To be more to the point, and with no disrespect intended to you, I found your recent entry 'Framed' to be of the second type of nude photography and therefore the model's appearance to have an impact on whether I liked the photo or not. In this case I did not find the model attractive and also didn't care for the theme/content either.
As will all art, many factors can influence the likes/dislikes of various art presentations. |
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02/18/2008 02:20:23 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
No. There's two types of nude photography. ... |
Yeah, ok, but "Framed" is not even in question (and I know it's a border-line image), but rather other comments:
This one for example:
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=640041
It certainly does not come close to the "erotic" line.
Either way, I fail to see how it justifies criticizingly the model(s).
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 14:25:00.
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02/18/2008 02:22:53 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Don't tell me you are advocating only super-models for nude ... because that would seriously affect my opinion of you. |
No. There's two types of nude photography. One is the artistic form of lines, form, and shape in usually a very controlled lighting environment. Tasteful and easy to appreciate the human body in it's amazing form and intricacies. The second type of nude is the sexual, promiscuous type that implies the sexual act or some engagement of sex. The kind that can create a lustful (or repulsive) response. It's the second type that if the model is not attractive (IMO or some viewer in general) then it's not appealing. Again, attractiveness is subjective.
To be more to the point, and with no disrespect intended to you, I found your recent entry 'Framed' to be of the second type of nude photography and therefore the model's appearance to have an impact on whether I liked the photo or not. In this case I did not find the model attractive and also didn't care for the theme/content either.
As will all art, many factors can influence the likes/dislikes of various art presentations. |
Bravo!
A very eloquently written example of a negative comment meant to be constructive. Certainly not one to be deleted.
Much more appreciated and less troubling to the model than... 'She has a big a**.'
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02/18/2008 02:24:44 PM · #107 |
Is the the photo in question?
[thumb]647994[/thumb] |
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02/18/2008 02:26:28 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Point one: allowing user-deletion of comments is, IMO, a horrible idea. If it ever happened, we'd see a huge dumbing down of the visible feedback on this site.
Point two: I'd have NO problem with adding to the ToS something like "negative comments on the appearance of human models is mean-spirited, hurtful to the models, serves no useful purpose. and will not be tolerated." End of problem...
R. |
Robert, I could deal with point two, if SC is liberal with the implementation. IMO, if it's offensive enough for the photographer to report it, it SHOULD be deleted, no questions asked. |
Well, yeah, and this added line in ToS would give them the ammunition they need to do it, based on what they have responded thus far in this thread. It's real simple; there's NO need, EVER, to make a negative comment about the appearance of a model in an image. It serves no useful purpose and it's potentially hurtful to the model. This IS your point, right? So if we get it in the ToC then we give SC the perfect tool to justify the deletion.
R.
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02/18/2008 02:30:05 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
'not an attractive belly' is constructive criticism ?
Now I understand my wife's comments to me so much better. |
it's just as constructive as "pretty eyes" or "beautiful hair" and way more constructive then "great shot".
"not an attractive belly" is the viewers opinion on something in the photo that they do or don't like. If we are talking about an airplane instead of a person (belly of an airplane), is the comment constructive?
Now, I didn't read the comment, no one posted it, and I don't dare go to leroy's page from work, but if "not an attractive belly" is rude, we have problems.
And the delete comment button??? I guess we have finally gotten to the point where we think we can just delete everything we don't like and life is good... Sad.
I guess two good things about the delete comment button:
1. No more whining about comments
2. No more whining about people not marking comments other then "great shot" helpful.
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02/18/2008 02:32:08 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by iamkmaniam:
I don't mean to throw gasoline on a fire, but there was another thread where Leroy commented that his model had "Junk in her trunk" I though this was rude and was blasted for saying that I though this was slanderous. To me that statement means Fat AS* Now he's complaining that some else commented that his model had a belly. I think thats a double standard. I beleive that the photographer is no longer able to be objective with photos containing these models.
Kevin
Edit to post link
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=736932&highlight=porn |
Um yeah he said it about his own model and she is a friend of his and they were playing around. Hardly the same thing dude. |
So what your saying is that if a friend leaves a derogatory comment it's OK but if you don't know the person it's not. A bad or offensive comment is the same no matter who leaves it. I don't understand your line of reasoning. |
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02/18/2008 02:32:59 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
[quote=glad2badad]
Yeah, ok, but "Framed" is not even in question (and I know it's a border-line image), but rather other comments:
This one for example:
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=640041
It certainly does not come close to the "erotic" line.
Either way, I fail to see how it justifies criticizingly the model(s). |
Come on Leroy. You've got to be kidding me. There were two comments on the photo you posted the link to (Tri-X) that mention anything about the model (or subject). You consider those rude? The guy's belly does fill the curve on the girl pretty well, you gotta admit. :-) The comment didn't say "what a fat gut", etc... The second comment said that the subject is "boring - lacking interest". Maybe that commenter wants more than one nipple for nudes - who knows? In any case, these aren't bad or over-the-top rude - certainly not of the nature to be considered for deleting. Not IMO anyway... |
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02/18/2008 02:36:39 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
[quote=glad2badad]
Yeah, ok, but "Framed" is not even in question (and I know it's a border-line image), but rather other comments:
This one for example:
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=640041
It certainly does not come close to the "erotic" line.
Either way, I fail to see how it justifies criticizingly the model(s). |
Come on Leroy. You've got to be kidding me. There were two comments on the photo you posted the link to (Tri-X) that mention anything about the model (or subject). You consider those rude? The guy's belly does fill the curve on the girl pretty well, you gotta admit. :-) The comment didn't say "what a fat gut", etc... The second comment said that the subject is "boring - lacking interest". Maybe that commenter wants more than one nipple for nudes - who knows? In any case, these aren't bad or over-the-top rude - certainly not of the nature to be considered for deleting. Not IMO anyway... |
The comment I'm really pissed about is gone...I deleted the photo and the commenter deleted his comment after I retaliated.
However, it implied the model looked like a $20 whore. You want to defend that defamation suit?
Maybe, I should drop it. Let people say anything they want and instruct models to file suits against the publisher!
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02/18/2008 02:38:17 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Gordon:
'not an attractive belly' is constructive criticism ?
Now I understand my wife's comments to me so much better. |
it's just as constructive as "pretty eyes" or "beautiful hair" and way more constructive then "great shot".
"not an attractive belly" is the viewers opinion on something in the photo that they do or don't like. If we are talking about an airplane instead of a person (belly of an airplane), is the comment constructive?
Now, I didn't read the comment, no one posted it, and I don't dare go to leroy's page from work, but if "not an attractive belly" is rude, we have problems.
And the delete comment button??? I guess we have finally gotten to the point where we think we can just delete everything we don't like and life is good... Sad.
I guess two good things about the delete comment button:
1. No more whining about comments
2. No more whining about people not marking comments other then "great shot" helpful. |
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
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02/18/2008 02:41:25 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
The comment I'm really pissed about is gone...I deleted the photo and the commenter deleted his comment after I retaliated.
However, it implied the model looked like a $20 whore. You want to defend that defamation suit?
Maybe, I should drop it. Let people say anything they want and instruct models to file suits against the publisher! |
Ok. Obviously, I didn't see that comment or photo that I can recall.
A comment left as you've stated ("implied the model looked like a $20 whore") is over the top and I can understand getting ticked about that. That would be one I'd report also.
Are you saying that this comment was reported and NOT removed or hidden by SC? And may I ask, what triggered this thread today? The comment you just referred to, or something else entirely? |
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02/18/2008 02:44:06 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by Qart:
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
It's been my experience that the ones that make the comments have little experience in portraiture (none the less nudes). It might be a form of jealousy, who knows?
But yeah, if I uploaded a photo of a child and someone said< "that kid needs her eyes fixed" I'd be equally unpleased with the comment.
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02/18/2008 02:46:07 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by Qart:
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
Actually I don't, but personally speaking, if I post a photo of myself nude, comments such as (note I'm not saying these do or don't apply to me):
"butt is too hairy"
"shave your models back"
"unattractive belly"
"too skinny"
"eyes too close"
"too muscular" (this one probably applies to me) :)
are not going to offend me. If your model can't take it, they should not be a model and should not have photos posted pubicly. The real world isn't all roses.
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02/18/2008 02:48:19 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Qart:
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
Actually I don't, but personally speaking, if I post a photo of myself nude, comments such as (note I'm not saying these do or don't apply to me):
"butt is too hairy"
"shave your models back"
"unattractive belly"
"too skinny"
"eyes too close"
"too muscular" (this one probably applies to me) :)
are not going to offend me. If your model can't take it, they should not be a model and should not have photos posted pubicly. The real world isn't all roses. |
how do any of those comments help you as a photographer though? This isn't a model critique site. |
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02/18/2008 02:50:09 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Qart:
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
It's been my experience that the ones that make the comments have little experience in portraiture (none the less nudes). It might be a form of jealousy, who knows?
But yeah, if I uploaded a photo of a child and someone said< "that kid needs her eyes fixed" I'd be equally unpleased with the comment. |
Well that comment did happen. As did a number of others along the way that were less than considerate of feelings for those who were kind enough to pose. A PM in most cases resolved the issue. But why should we have to take it upon ourselves to police. No one is asking for the right to delete at will... and contrary to what some think... I'm sure the delete comment feature would be used with more respect than the comment poster excercised. |
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02/18/2008 02:50:57 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by Qart:
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
I Disagree and I do work with models as part of my job in advertising and hear many mean and vulgar comments and sometimes they hear them too. It's part of the job. The successful ones toughen up. Everyone has a right to their opinion. One just hopes that they're tactful enough to state it and not offend. Unforunately, some aren't. But if you're going to be in that business it part of the turf. |
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02/18/2008 02:51:51 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Are you saying that this comment was reported and NOT removed or hidden by SC? And may I ask, what triggered this thread today? The comment you just referred to, or something else entirely? |
They may have had the commenter not thought about his comment after I was equally rude. I dunno. Although comments left from an SC above seem to imply they would not have. I've been here before and had to remove images from my portfolio in order to get a comment removed. It's not fun to be forced to throw out a bunch of real comments in order to get rid of an unfavorable.
So, it's more of a lack of control in protecting my subjects from unfavorable remarks that sparked and will continue to spark reaction.
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02/18/2008 02:52:34 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
Originally posted by Qart:
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
I Disagree and I do work with models as part of my job in advertising and hear many mean and vulgar comments and sometimes they hear them too. It's part of the job. The successful ones toughen up. Everyone has a right to their opinion. One just hopes that they're tactful enough to state it and not offend. Unforunately, some aren't. But if you're going to be in that business it part of the turf. |
This is an amateur photog site... they're NOT in the business. |
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02/18/2008 02:56:25 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
Originally posted by Qart:
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
I Disagree and I do work with models as part of my job in advertising and hear many mean and vulgar comments and sometimes they hear them too. It's part of the job. The successful ones toughen up. Everyone has a right to their opinion. One just hopes that they're tactful enough to state it and not offend. Unforunately, some aren't. But if you're going to be in that business it part of the turf. |
Advertising is an UGLY field and should definitely not be used as a basis for civil behavior.
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02/18/2008 02:57:14 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Qart:
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
Actually I don't, but personally speaking, if I post a photo of myself nude, comments such as (note I'm not saying these do or don't apply to me):
"butt is too hairy"
"shave your models back"
"unattractive belly"
"too skinny"
"eyes too close"
"too muscular" (this one probably applies to me) :)
are not going to offend me. If your model can't take it, they should not be a model and should not have photos posted pubicly. The real world isn't all roses. |
how do any of those comments help you as a photographer though? This isn't a model critique site. |
It tells me things I can hide, or things to look for in my next model to make my photo better.
ETA:
Just as a "unattractive belly" comment on my airplane shot would tell me to not shoot the belly of that aircraft. Or "that ugly tree is distracting" in my landscape shot lets me know maybe I should remove it from the composition.
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 15:01:13.
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02/18/2008 02:58:44 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
how do any of those comments help you as a photographer though? This isn't a model critique site. |
Hell, as messed up as ModelMayhem is, they don't even allow unprovoked comments like that.
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02/18/2008 03:00:37 PM · #125 |
"Because your girl's teeth are so crooked, I'd recommend portraits where she smiles with her mouth closed"
I'd like to see if there would even be a discussion if that was the comment... |
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