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02/15/2008 12:52:53 PM · #1 |
As many of you know before my hiatus from this site I was very much into photographing ballet. My daughter was involved and I traded studio space for opportunities for shoot practice and events. I did try and sell some show pictures here and there but never had much luck getting the parents to buy (despite rave reviews by them). Since then the studio head and my family have had a falling out (for simplicity lets just leave it at that).
Now here's the thing, I have 20,000+ pictures of these kids that are hands down the best work I have ever done. They are portraits and candids and all the kinds of stuff I truly love to shoot (and I think I excel at) but normally don't have the opportunity to shoot (see other thread about my problems meeting people).
I'd love to show off some of my work here in my portfolio and maybe on a flikr or smugmug type site. People could then see the kind of work I enjoy and what I'm capable of and I think it would be easier to attract people that are interested using me for that kind of work. I didn't get any releases because at the time the studio had a photo release for all the girls and it was all done very informally (more of a hobby, the selling was just a "bonus").
What can I safely do with these photos? Can I post some up various places? Or because they are of kids and they were taken in a business with no formal release from me are they now just junk that I may as well delete because no one can ever see them? |
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02/15/2008 12:58:22 PM · #2 |
YI believe you can show shots without releases, just cannot make money off them.
However, I see where youre going with this. Kids have always been a touchy subject for me to shoot or post because of all the bad rap the interenet and those darn photo pedophile freaks have done. If you make it a ballet theme, I dont see any harm there. But I wouldnt just post random children shots. Make some theme with them so peopel can clearly see what youre up to.
thats my 2 pennies for you. :) |
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02/15/2008 01:19:24 PM · #3 |
Dan,
You have alluded to feelings that may be hurt between the two parties. Yourself and ex/Studio?
I would not dare to tread on the possibility that anyone would use those hard feelings against you to disparage or shine a less than favorable light on your work.
IMHO - Get rid of them, or contact each group separately, inform them of your purge of the studio shots and that they have a limited time to purchase all rights to a CD of the images before destruction.
JD. |
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02/15/2008 01:23:59 PM · #4 |
If you keep them for no other reason, keep them for the learning experience that going back and looking at your past work can provide.
Don't delete them. DVD's are cheap.
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02/15/2008 01:37:43 PM · #5 |
| Actually, Yes, I completely agree with Leroy. They have much value. I was looking at it from the worst possible POV and voicing that opinion, however I do not think that you can take the chance of posting these items on the web without pushing the envelope of who may or may not lash out from that point of view. |
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02/15/2008 01:45:47 PM · #6 |
What you can do with them depends on the laws where you live.
In the US you can't do much. Without a valid model release there isn't much that can be done with them here. Even though we only compete for "ribbons" here, some enterprising young lawyer might make it into court if they really pushed, because model releases are not a requirement for entery in our contests.
The rule of thumb that I have found to be true is, that more famous you are or the more famous the pictures become, the more likely there is to be someone who has "issues".
Since there is someone whom you know that already has "issues" with you I would say that you could probably get by with carrying them in a portfolio for person to person chats. To post them on the internet might only invite retaliation. They don't havew to win a court case to cost you a lot of heartache and money. Arcanist has a good idea, offer them as a last chance sale. You don't necessarily need to destroy them, media is cheap. But I wouldn't put them on a web site.
Regards,
-alex
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02/15/2008 01:59:00 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
...keep them for the learning experience that going back and looking at your past work can provide... |
You could. Not having seen any of the images you refer to, I can't say with certainty, but on principle, I wouldn't worry about shots which a) do not reveal a recognizable likeness of their subject(s) and b) which are clearly artistic work by any reasonable definition. I'd also keep those with seven or more human subjects in them.
Yet, Arcanist makes a valid point: anyone motivated to sue you, can...
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02/15/2008 01:59:26 PM · #8 |
If I were you, I would smash up a bunch of CDs, then mail the smashed bits to all of the parents to demonstrate what's happening to the photos of their children.
;-)
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02/15/2008 01:59:36 PM · #9 |
Thanks guys. It's not the answerer I WANTED to hear but it's the one I was kind of expecting.
The beef with the studio was really with the way the studio head was interacting with my daughter, there wasn't really any problem with my work. The parents didn't have a problem with me but it's a tight nit group and I've seen them turn on others based upon the feelings of the studio head.
Bottom line is it's a pretty rural area and I couldn't get the parents to shell out $20 for DVDs of full size images during the shows - I highly doubt I'll get them to pay for them now (months later). There just isn't the market for that kind of thing over there (I'm in a larger city now).
I suppose I'll probably hand pick out some of my favorites and back them up on DVD as suggested and just chuck the rest. Just seems like such a waste :( |
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02/15/2008 02:00:42 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
If I were you, I would smash up a bunch of CDs, then mail the smashed bits to all of the parents to demonstrate what's happening to the photos of their children.
;-) |
LOL - we have a winner! ;) |
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02/15/2008 02:01:49 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Just seems like such a waste :( |
Not really man it could be cathartic. You know out with the old and in with the new!
:-D |
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02/15/2008 02:02:20 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
If I were you, I would smash up a bunch of CDs, then mail the smashed bits to all of the parents to demonstrate what's happening to the photos of their children.
;-) |
I can be useful to dissemble people's emotions, if you're going to reconstruct them as well. If you don't, it just hurts. :-/ |
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02/15/2008 02:12:32 PM · #13 |
If at the time the photos were taken you had the studio's permission and the parents had signed a generic release, then you should have no problem using them for "personal or educational" use. You should be able to post them for feedback (e.g. here) or include them in a personal portfolio (printed or on-line) advertising your own services.
You would not be able to use them for "commercial" purposes, e.g. posting as stock or using as a stock image yourself in a design for a client.
You should be able to sell an individual "fine art print" -- but not mass reproductions such as posters or greeting cards.
I would certainly back them up for permanent archiving, and not completely delete them, but I do that with everything I shoot. |
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02/15/2008 02:34:57 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If at the time the photos were taken you had the studio's permission and the parents had signed a generic release, then you should have no problem using them for "personal or educational" use. You should be able to post them for feedback (e.g. here) or include them in a personal portfolio (printed or on-line) advertising your own services.
You would not be able to use them for "commercial" purposes, e.g. posting as stock or using as a stock image yourself in a design for a client.
You should be able to sell an individual "fine art print" -- but not mass reproductions such as posters or greeting cards.
I would certainly back them up for permanent archiving, and not completely delete them, but I do that with everything I shoot. |
I'm going to agree with GeneralE. If you had permission at the time the shots were taken and the studio had a generic photo release, you should be fine. As far as a model release is concerned, I don't believe they are required for your personal and/or self promotional use given you had permission to create the images in the first place. I wouldn't go out and sell the images without a release from the model (not the studio), but that is much different then displaying within your own portfolio.
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02/15/2008 02:40:51 PM · #15 |
Well I have no interest in selling th photos at this point (heck, I'm ready to just delete them). They are representative of my skills and abilities though and I'd like to be able to showcase some to say - "hey, this is who I am and what I can do".
Right now in my DPC portfolio I just have the 2 challenges I've entered and neither really represent my abilities much. Plus I like shooting people and it'll likely be a while before I have any people to shoot again. |
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02/15/2008 02:52:27 PM · #16 |
| Definetely agree with Nusbaum and General E. I put up display images here in our gallery, on our website and in our portfolios without any sort of release. As long as we aren't selling them then there is no problem. If someone gets a little upset you can take it down out of curtosy but you really shouldn't have to. |
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02/15/2008 03:05:40 PM · #17 |
Cathartism (is this even a word?) and all other things aside, the one thing to take away from this experience is this...
Get yourself a solid model release that you use with all photo shoots. Get people (adults) to sign them and then if ever faced with a situation like this again, you'll be able to keep it all, use it all, and make money with it all ... without guilt or fear of retribution. |
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02/15/2008 03:11:45 PM · #18 |
| Heck..keep them, post them and take it as an incredible experience. When you post..post your settings and such so we can learn too. :-)) |
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02/15/2008 04:22:33 PM · #19 |
Just an idea here...
Myself, I would take all of the shots and organize them into some sort of order where you could reference easily...such as maybe by date and name of dancer(s, if you remember them all). After you know you are able to come up with this, post a sign at the dance studio or in the newspaper that says something to the effect that you had been taking photographs at the shindigs from such through such a date and that you are in the market to sell some of the pictures and /or cds of them. Although noone wanted any at the time you asked, it is possible that maybe you missed some that would have paid you for them, and maybe the ones who did say no have changed their mind.
You are right...that is a helluva waste to just delete them all. I would try and find some avenue to capitalize on them. If nothing comes of them, well...you aren't really out anything.
And if anyone does contact you, you can ask for releases from them at that time, relieving you of that worry.
As I said... simply one of my hare-brained ideas.! :)
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02/15/2008 08:10:07 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Cathartism (is this even a word?) and all other things aside |
I believe the word you're looking for is "catharsis". However if you wanted to bend it into, say, "catharticalisatory effects" I'd smile. :)
As for the OP - gotta agree, don't destroy the work. Firstly, it's work that you're proud of. And even if you don't find any uses for it now, there's nothing to say that you won't find uses for it later - e.g. if your relationship with the studio improves, or if you want to show examples of your work to other studios as part of a portfolio (which could be printed rather than online, to avoid any qualms you might have about online portfolios being published/public).
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02/16/2008 02:43:04 PM · #21 |
Storage is cheap. Keep them. Sell photos on paper or cards, not CDs. Post that you have pictures from xxx dance studio for the years yyy to yyy, and that they are available for purchase by the subjects. Send an email once a year (before Christmas, or some other event). If you have the time and the names to go with the faces, email an individual watermarked copy with a Christmas (or other) card frame around it to the parents so they will get ideas. Even mention that becasue of the cost of processing (ie your time, the cost of printing, etc) the price will be going up next year (and so on).
Sooner or later, someone will want a copy. You may have to wait till the kids grow up and have kids of their own, but then the pictures will be more valuable. And will cost more. |
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