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01/23/2008 10:58:20 PM · #51 |
I think 'no ribbon' challenges are a GREAT idea! However, I do agree that when I do ribbon in a regular challenge, I want it to be "real" as well.
So, how about a compromise? Hats are a great idea!, but for now how about something digital other than a ribbon. For example, a hat on our little profile head... like the santa hats we had at Christmas. I would be proud of one of those for now until I get a ribbon. Doesn't have to be a hat on the head, but something along those lines that don't take away from the ribbon.
An easy compromise is not out of the question here, I don't think.
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01/23/2008 11:00:14 PM · #52 |
I also think that 'non-ribbon' challenges might just produce some different and unique photos that DPC might benefit from seeing.
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01/23/2008 11:03:16 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by cynthiann:
I also think that 'non-ribbon' challenges might just produce some different and unique photos that DPC might benefit from seeing. |
I think Don and company does that quite well with the oobie award as well as yappie award |
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01/23/2008 11:15:54 PM · #54 |
fwiw, i think that having non-ribboner challenge opposite a masters' challenges is a perfectly fine idea for a one-time thing, or even every once in a while, probably no need for it to be more often that that.
as to the stigma of winning a non-ribboner's challenge, won't the challenge title say it all? it sits right under the image so what's the big deal? and if that particular ribbon ain't good enough for you, hey, don't enter that challenge. is the stigma any worse than winning a ribbon with a 6 instead of a 7? or winning a challenge where you had to have given more comments than you've received? or winning a challenge that only had a handful of entries? |
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01/23/2008 11:19:42 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
fwiw, i think that having non-ribboner challenge opposite a masters' challenges is a perfectly fine idea for a one-time thing, or even every once in a while, probably no need for it to be more often that that.
as to the stigma of winning a non-ribboner's challenge, won't the challenge title say it all? it sits right under the image so what's the big deal? and if that particular ribbon ain't good enough for you, hey, don't enter that challenge. is the stigma any worse than winning a ribbon with a 6 instead of a 7? or winning a challenge where you had to have given more comments than you've received? or winning a challenge that only had a handful of entries? |
point well taken. Thank you for pointing that out |
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01/23/2008 11:29:18 PM · #56 |
| This is a fascinating discussion so far. I'm not sure exactly what I want to contribute, but I know it's touched on a lot of different things that have made me feel whiney lately. I'm not sure, though, that I understand fully what the issue is? What is the specific problem we're attempting to solve here? |
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01/23/2008 11:30:50 PM · #57 |
I am appauled, as many parents are likely feeling the same way, that my daughter got a trophy for her team getting last place in her T-Ball league. Though I sincerely applaud her for her perserverance, this pathetic facade of heroism as a means of elevating underperforance in a competetive environment is shameful and getting to be a bit sickening. In this context, the solution is simple. Pay attention and take better photos! I had no formal training but seem to eek out a decent photo once in a while and yes, come off with a ribbon. Prior to my first digital in 2004, I had taken maybe 12 pictures in my life. Am I gifted, am I an alien, or am I just damned determined to make myself better by taking better photos and/or learning to use post processing methods that will yield better results?
Look at Joey lawrence. The cockiest member here for years but the guy is PURE GENIOUS. He can take a better picture with a cell phone than most of us can with our high end DSLRs. I've blasted him in comments on things I though were crap and he comes back and slaps me in the face with some of the most creative images I've seen. Adventures abroad in exotic locations. Bookings from those who are interested in learning of this talented phenomenon called Joey Lawrence. BRAVO for him and his determination!
Anthony Robbins made a very valid statement when he said that if you want to have a better life, raise your standards. If you want to do better, be better.
Getting to a level of excellence in any endeavor is attainable if you are willing to question, learn and practice. Unfortunately many use this venue as their practice area and gripe when they are judged harshly for their practice pictures. If these are their best pictures, then learn to take better pictures and we will learn to give you better scores.
Discussions like this are why some of the best photographers have lost interest in this site. Why would they do better when the bar keeps getting lower? Why does the keep going lower, because we're too damn lazy to jump.
You may think you can or think you cannot. Either way you are right. "Henry Ford"
I feel better now.
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01/23/2008 11:38:58 PM · #58 |
| Nice job! I feel better too. It took a parent to show up and speak the truth |
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01/23/2008 11:41:10 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by cynthiann:
I also think that 'non-ribbon' challenges might just produce some different and unique photos that DPC might benefit from seeing. |
That would be nice but I'm not sure I understand how that might come about. Wouldn't that require a change in voter behavior and not who's barred from entering? If we have a non-ribbon only challenge where the subject is say "Water", I'd imagine we'd have a lot of people trying to shoot water drops, waterfalls, etc, not just because they are popular but because you won't have to go up against the likes of IreneM, DrAchoo, etc.
Besides, few people are really interested in seeing unique imagery. The community at large almost always attacks anything that might pump in some creativity (ex. expert editing) or they don't help promote some of the more unique challenge suggestions made. My last challenge suggestion was called "Abstract Humanity and that thread was finished faster then it took me to type the opening post. Fact is people don't want to think whether it be behind the camera or on the voting page and the only way to change that is to require it more often. Challenges like Framing III or Six does nothing of the sort. |
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01/23/2008 11:42:01 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Look at Joey lawrence. The cockiest member here for years... |
Are you nuts?? (just kidding)
I would argue that there is a certain person in the west (U.S.) that could easily claim that title! I don't want to name names, so that's as specific as I'll get (for now). ;-)
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01/23/2008 11:58:48 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by cynthiann:
I also think that 'non-ribbon' challenges might just produce some different and unique photos that DPC might benefit from seeing. |
That would be nice but I'm not sure I understand how that might come about. Wouldn't that require a change in voter behavior and not who's barred from entering? If we have a non-ribbon only challenge where the subject is say "Water", I'd imagine we'd have a lot of people trying to shoot water drops, waterfalls, etc, not just because they are popular but because you won't have to go up against the likes of IreneM, DrAchoo, etc.
Besides, few people are really interested in seeing unique imagery. The community at large almost always attacks anything that might pump in some creativity (ex. expert editing) or they don't help promote some of the more unique challenge suggestions made. My last challenge suggestion was called "Abstract Humanity and that thread was finished faster then it took me to type the opening post. Fact is people don't want to think whether it be behind the camera or on the voting page and the only way to change that is to require it more often. Challenges like Framing III or Six does nothing of the sort. |
You're right, we may end up with water drops and water falls, ...we almost certainly will, but we we may not.
But be that as it may, I still think an occasional, or even annual "non-ribboners" challenge would be a good idea to light a fire under some of the new-comers should they choose to participate. We don't have to "cheapen the ribbon" by giving it out to the winners. But some kind of digital recognition on their profile would be reward enough.
Alternatively, I'd also like to see an expert challenge for ribboners only.
Message edited by author 2008-01-24 00:01:03.
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01/23/2008 11:58:55 PM · #62 |
I agree wholeheartedly with  Ivo! |
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01/23/2008 11:59:15 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
fwiw, i think that having non-ribboner challenge opposite a masters' challenges is a perfectly fine idea for a one-time thing, or even every once in a while, probably no need for it to be more often that that.
as to the stigma of winning a non-ribboner's challenge, won't the challenge title say it all? it sits right under the image so what's the big deal? and if that particular ribbon ain't good enough for you, hey, don't enter that challenge. is the stigma any worse than winning a ribbon with a 6 instead of a 7? or winning a challenge where you had to have given more comments than you've received? or winning a challenge that only had a handful of entries? |
At least a master's challenge would give those who have won several challenges a new and harder challenge to met. What would be accomplished in a non-ribboner challenge other than making it easier to join the ribbon club? Is it that important that everyone get a ribbon? If it's not about the "status" then what other purpose does it serve? |
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01/24/2008 12:01:25 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
the solution is simple. Pay attention and take better photos! |
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but couldn't help but notice the irony that your first ribbon was in a challenge that was only open to people with no ribbons. Most of the top 20 finishers in that challenge have since won ribbons (often multiple) in regular challenges by continuing to work hard and practice... in spite of not ribboning in a handicapped field. You don't need a ribbon for encouragement when a positive comment or pride in your own progress is such a good motivator. |
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01/24/2008 12:07:13 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Discussions like this are why some of the best photographers have lost interest in this site. Why would they do better when the bar keeps getting lower? Why does the keep going lower, because we're too damn lazy to jump.
You may think you can or think you cannot. Either way you are right. "Henry Ford"
I feel better now. |
John,
I know what you are saying, and what you say is all true. But so are many of the things the others are saying. Myself... I like it the way it is now...cause I like to see how I compare with some of the best on the site. Let me also add... I have yet shot a photo that I thought could be rated above a 6...by ME. But I can see the other side too.
I was a freelance photojournalist for a while after I closed the darkroom and left the Army. The pictures I took then were straight "information" shots. There is a burning building...click...I have the picture. I didn't HAVE to think about competition, ratings or whatever. I just needed to get the shot. And I was good at getting this "picture" rather than a photograph. Kept me in shrimp, steak and women for 20 years! On this site, I am having a he** of a time cause now I have to think of the "after" alot more than I ever did before.
We have a ton of people signing up, have recently signed up, or have been here a while who have yet to reach the top 20. Not that their talent isn't there ... some are really good. But competing with the best the site has CAN become a stigma that is not surmountable.
What if there were to be a subset of DPC where only 'newbies' and members who have yet to climb out of the cellar (That's me!!) could compete against each other. Only, the difference would be that ALL of the shots could be critiqued by one of the better photog members. That way, not only would they have the competition aspect, but they could also learn.
These members could be called "Rookies", for lack of a better term. And rather than have the results on the DPC mainpage... we could post them on a sub-page just for the Rookies.
Ok... I am throwing something up in the air that probably isn't feasible, but focuspoint and the others are right...to an extent. It can be defeating when you work hard on your photo, submit it, and then get blown out of the water by the absolutely wonderful works of Judi, Scalvert, DrAchoo, Bear_Music and so many other wonderful photogs on the site.
This idea of mine isn't so much "leveling the playing field" as it would be letting the not-so-stunning photogs (like me!) work within a group that would be more to their own level.
Hope I haven't upset anyone. Not intended to be that way. I just see both sides of this debate.
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01/24/2008 12:12:33 AM · #66 |
| Just to throw my thought in here, don't you want to challenge yourself as a photographer against some of the best and try to set the bar higher for yourself, instead of setting it at a lower stage just to make yourself feel better? Lifes tough, learn from the best, keep going at it, and push yourself. |
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01/24/2008 12:13:02 AM · #67 |
Here's a funky idea...
Have a challenge only for ribboners. The catch is--the bottom five lose one ribbon (their highest ranking ribbon)! ;-)
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01/24/2008 12:25:26 AM · #68 |
Maybe a challenge only for brown ribbon recipients?
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01/24/2008 12:27:50 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by Dantzr:
competing with the best the site has CAN become a stigma that is not surmountable. |
Half of the Open challenge ribbons this week went to first-timers... beating out many regular ribbon winners. |
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01/24/2008 12:38:35 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by AperturePriority:
Here's a funky idea...
Have a challenge only for ribboners. The catch is--the bottom five lose one ribbon (their highest ranking ribbon)! ;-) |
LOL. That would be interesting. It wouldn't mean much to lose 1 or 5 ribbons if you're Scalvert or DrAchoo though. |
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01/24/2008 12:41:43 AM · #71 |
| Aren't you losing sight of the fact that the ribbon winners may not be the best in the challenge photographicaly but they are what the voters like and want! Look at any of the top photographic magazines and you wont see this obsession with knife edge sharpness that DPC voters have! You will also see a wide range of subjects photographed in many ways some times breaking the rules of photography and turning out all the better for it. We must also remember the wide range of cameras on DPC from pro to entry level although this should not make a difference it sometimes does. I know That I am a little off point but what I am trying to say is that maybe it is the voters we should be looking at and some criteria for them to be able to vote on certain challenges. |
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01/24/2008 12:42:40 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Maybe a challenge only for brown ribbon recipients? |
I'd like to see that one for sure - just to see the improvement if they have payed attention.
Is Brown only dead last place? Otherwise I could play in that challenge because I have come so close so many times. |
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01/24/2008 12:45:17 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by photokariangel:
Just to throw my thought in here, don't you want to challenge yourself as a photographer against some of the best and try to set the bar higher for yourself, instead of setting it at a lower stage just to make yourself feel better? Lifes tough, learn from the best, keep going at it, and push yourself. |
Kari... you are right. Compete against the best and strive to improve. Good thought. But some people do not have the time, money or patience to start from zilch and dig their selves in till they can make it to the top. I try and do as you suggest... but life puts up roadblocks sometimes.
I love DPC and just about all who are on the site. When I boot up the ol' PC, the first place I go is this site and peruse it's hidden gems. When I have time to take photos, I do so and if they fit a Challenge I try and enter. So far, my highest rated entry has been a 5.1328 after entering 11 Challenges. But I have a thick skin so unless someone posting a comment is really an ASSinine person, I seldom get upset. I know that my photos have a long way to go.
But there are a lot of new photogs here. Some people who bought their first camera and, while looking on the Internet for accessories happened to come across DPC. These people could easily get to the point where they say to themselves...what is the point? I'll never get as good as those others. And they will find a site somewhere that is aimed and populated by lesser talented photogs and picture-takers.
You have a talented eye for photography and obviously a wonderful set of goals. But remember, some people have families, jobs and much more that takes precedence over their photography. What seems like an wonderful thing to shoot for to you might seem completely insurmountable to many others.
All the people who would like to see some changes are saying is that maybe if there were different levels to DPC that maybe it would make it more competitive for us at the bottom of the spectrum.
Sorry! My 2 cents sometimes ends up being a dime.
Mike
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01/24/2008 12:47:39 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by sulamk:
Aren't you losing sight of the fact that the ribbon winners may not be the best in the challenge photographicaly but they are what the voters like and want! Look at any of the top photographic magazines and you wont see this obsession with knife edge sharpness that DPC voters have! You will also see a wide range of subjects photographed in many ways some times breaking the rules of photography and turning out all the better for it. We must also remember the wide range of cameras on DPC from pro to entry level although this should not make a difference it sometimes does. I know That I am a little off point but what I am trying to say is that maybe it is the voters we should be looking at and some criteria for them to be able to vote on certain challenges. |
You touch on a good point. The general public isn't the one doing the voting here. It's other photographers or inspiring photographers so the emphasis tends to be more on the technical side of things. The best way to use this site is to learn what does well here and then adapt it to the audience you wish to attract. |
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01/24/2008 12:49:09 AM · #75 |
| I don't post much in the forums. (I just get a laugh at what I read some times). I'm just average here. I went to another site a year or so ago and enjoy just sharing my images. You get daily awards for the most popular. (got around a hundred). They do contest too. (5 top 3 finishes out of 15). Met some good people. Yet its just not the same. (not to dis the other site, I really enjoy it). To compete with the likes of the ribbon hogs and many other top photographers here is just a rush. I get pissed some times on low scores. (childhood challenge). Yet my best of 2007 is around 6.5. just to cool. I guess what I'm saying is if you just want the ribbon there are site out there that the average person here would do real well at. I may not ribbon again here, but if I out score DrAchoo in the best of 2007 it's just like winning a ribbon to me.... Lol. Just for the record most all my images are done with basic editing rule set or very minor advance editing. Ok, the meds are kicking in. That's my story and I'm sticking to it....Lol |
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