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01/03/2008 03:04:28 AM · #926 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Uhhh, but isn't that the entire point of being a Christian? If you believed there was another way to heaven that didn't involve Christ you wouldn't be a Christian would you? |
Sure, it's the point of ANY religion. The difference is that disbelievers don't condemn everyone else to some terrible fate for failing to see things their way. There is no judgement rendered- you simply don't agree. |
Buddhism dont work that way, as what i understand. Taoism works in similar ways though.
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01/03/2008 03:26:14 AM · #927 |
If you could prove your faith, then it wouldn't really be "faith" anymore, would it?
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01/03/2008 06:56:57 AM · #928 |
Originally posted by 777STAN:
May God grant you grace to be in that last group, My Friend! :) |
The sad part about your comment is that it pre-supposes that only YOUR God cares for people and that only messengers of your faith are capable of warning the masses of impending doom. Others see things differently.
Ray |
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01/03/2008 07:07:17 AM · #929 |
What do you call it when you are standing on the approach (bowling lane) and you KNOW that you are about to throw a strike - and you do? What do you call it when you are on the putting green and KNOW you are about to sink a 30 footer - and you do? What sense is allowing you to have that foreknowledge? What sense is in play when you are sitting in a resturant, "feel" someone looking at you, turn around - and they are? It is sometimes referred to as the "etheric" sense - aka 6th sense. It has been documented (actually photographed) and demonstrated to be present by many people who have experienced a misfortune. Women who have been assaulted have been interviewed and claimed "I knew that something bad was going to happen", "I could sense it".
How do atheists explain this sense? What about prophecy? Does Nostradomeus illustrate an ability to predict the future? What about Edward Casey? Or Jean Dixon? Or Moses/Daniel/Jesus/ or the John of Revelation? Do the Apritions of Mary have logical explainitions? How do atheists explain the 66 miracle cures at Lourdes - the 66 that even the Council accepts as meeting the requisites of a documented pre-existing condition, immediate cure and the cure was still in effect for at least 5 subsequent years. Are these just coincidences?
Does mathematics have a role in science? Does mathematics prove science or does science prove mathematics? Is astrology (the study of the heavens), a science? Did the Mayan's or Nostradamaeus or the 3 wise men effectively use mathematics to unlock mysteries? Why can the local planetarium reverse the solar system back a couple of thousand years ago and detail the exact movements of the planets and illustrate the movements of Mars/Venus doing a dance in the night sky that earily resembles the "Star" known have identified the Birth of Christ and the travel path of the wise men.
I accept that atheists have a right to their positions. I simply do not understand how anyone can stand on the west rim of the Grand Canyon at sunset, and not "see" the hand of God.
BTW - Happy New Year.
Message edited by author 2008-01-03 07:12:47. |
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01/03/2008 08:33:46 AM · #930 |
Originally posted by Flash:
What do you call it when you are on the putting green and KNOW you are about to sink a 30 footer - and you do? |
Never happens. :-) I can KNOW I'm gonna sink it all day long, and it STILL never happens.
Originally posted by Flash:
I accept that atheists have a right to their positions. I simply do not understand how anyone can stand on the west rim of the Grand Canyon at sunset, and not "see" the hand of God. |
As a multitheist or whatever (I'm not specific in gods), I would suspect a Buddist monk would say the very same thing, only with reference to his deity. And I'm quite sure a Muslim would see the hand of Allah. Perhaps an atheist sees simply wonder manifested. |
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01/03/2008 09:21:37 AM · #931 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by Flash:
What do you call it when you are on the putting green and KNOW you are about to sink a 30 footer - and you do? |
Never happens. :-) I can KNOW I'm gonna sink it all day long, and it STILL never happens.
Originally posted by Flash:
I accept that atheists have a right to their positions. I simply do not understand how anyone can stand on the west rim of the Grand Canyon at sunset, and not "see" the hand of God. |
As a multitheist or whatever (I'm not specific in gods), I would suspect a Buddist monk would say the very same thing, only with reference to his deity. And I'm quite sure a Muslim would see the hand of Allah. Perhaps an atheist sees simply wonder manifested. |
I believe the word you're looking for is pantheist.
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01/03/2008 09:38:46 AM · #932 |
Originally posted by 777STAN:
any jpeg I enter into a challenge is at the mercy of another person's monitor for the score I receive from them. If their monitor is only 15", then it stands to reason that I will receive a higher score from them than I would from someone sporting a 27" - 32" monitor (which would, of course, show all the flaws in my work.) |
Your entry wouldn't be any higher resolution on a 32" monitor than a 15" one. Both would be limited to the 640 pixels of your entry. A difference of belief is not a difference of physical perception. If you believe in the Loch Ness Monster and I don't, that's not a calibration issue... there's nothing to look at and you just choose to believe anyway. If your bridge story was literal, I'd point to all the devoted believers who weren't spared unfortunate deaths and say that you were just lucky. If you meant you were spared from not believing what you believe well, umm... good for you. I consider myself equally fortunate for being spared the belief that you're more special than most of the population because of your faith in the deity du jour.
Originally posted by Flash:
How do atheists explain this sense? What about prophecy?... |
Coincidence, attribution and selective memory. If you have a sense that "something" will happen and it doesn't, then there's nothing remarkable to remember. Fortune tellers only appear to be making accurate predictions because people actively try to attribute events to statements vague enough to fit different situations, and if they find some good matches, then any predictions that don't fit are forgotten as quickly as a player's bad season after scoring the championship. I once had a group of people absolutely convinced that I could control the weather. :-/ The appearance of a figure is no more remarkable to me than stories of sailors who saw mermaids with their own eyes... especially since nobody really knows what these people actually looked like, and the position of the planets has no more direct effect on your love life or job prospects than the position of a leaf in Thailand. Maybe less.
Originally posted by Flash:
Why can the local planetarium reverse the solar system back a couple of thousand years ago and detail the exact movements of the planets and illustrate the movements of Mars/Venus doing a dance in the night sky that earily resembles the "Star" known have identified the Birth of Christ and the travel path of the wise men. |
That's a pretty neat trick since we don't actually know when Jesus was born. Nowhere in the Bible is a specific time given (not even the month). You'd think those wise men would have made a note of such an important date, huh? The same applies for Easter.
Originally posted by Flash:
I simply do not understand how anyone can stand on the west rim of the Grand Canyon at sunset, and not "see" the hand of God. |
I am much more impressed with the thought that something as simple and lowly as ordinary sand and water can yield such an impressive result over time than I am with the notion that some magic being poofed a big hole into Arizona. |
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01/03/2008 10:01:50 AM · #933 |
Originally posted by Flash:
What do you call it when you are standing on the approach (bowling lane) and you KNOW that you are about to throw a strike - and you do? What do you call it when you are on the putting green and KNOW you are about to sink a 30 footer - and you do? |
Confidence.
Many more times, I've "known" that something was going to happen and it has not, however, it's nice when it does happen, especially if you call your shot. |
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01/03/2008 10:06:49 AM · #934 |
Originally posted by Flash:
How do atheists explain this sense? What about prophecy? Does Nostradomeus illustrate an ability to predict the future? What about Edward Casey? Or Jean Dixon? Or Moses/Daniel/Jesus/ or the John of Revelation? Do the Apritions of Mary have logical explainitions? How do atheists explain the 66 miracle cures at Lourdes - the 66 that even the Council accepts as meeting the requisites of a documented pre-existing condition, immediate cure and the cure was still in effect for at least 5 subsequent years. Are these just coincidences?
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Vestigial senses from humans' extensive time spent evolving as an elusive, but tasty snack for other, bigger, nastier critters.
Predicting the future is at best, an ability to cast a vague enough prediction that some highly likely event will occur that fits most of the criteria put forth in the prediction. I'm not amazed. |
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01/03/2008 10:14:25 AM · #935 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
How do atheists explain this sense? What about prophecy? Does Nostradomeus illustrate an ability to predict the future? What about Edward Casey? Or Jean Dixon? Or Moses/Daniel/Jesus/ or the John of Revelation? Do the Apritions of Mary have logical explainitions? How do atheists explain the 66 miracle cures at Lourdes - the 66 that even the Council accepts as meeting the requisites of a documented pre-existing condition, immediate cure and the cure was still in effect for at least 5 subsequent years. Are these just coincidences?
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Vestigial senses from humans' extensive time spent evolving as an elusive, but tasty snack for other, bigger, nastier critters.
Predicting the future is at best, an ability to cast a vague enough prediction that some highly likely event will occur that fits most of the criteria put forth in the prediction. I'm not amazed. |
At least this clarifies for me at least, why such a disparity exists between myself and other posters here. I lean heavily towards recognition of the spritual, while others do not. |
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01/03/2008 10:23:18 AM · #936 |
Originally posted by Flash:
What do you call it when you are standing on the approach (bowling lane) and you KNOW that you are about to throw a strike - and you do? |
Coincidence. Maybe I misunderstand, but if you are calling this feeling the voice of God whispering in your ear that you are about to strike it big, I can only paraphrase Nietzsche and suggest that a deity with such a bass-ackwards sense of priorities would need to be abolished even if he existed.
Originally posted by Flash:
What do you call it when you are on the putting green and KNOW you are about to sink a 30 footer - and you do? ... What sense is in play when you are sitting in a resturant, "feel" someone looking at you, turn around - and they are?...How do atheists explain this sense? |
There's nothing to be explained. When superstition meets hope in the absence of testable data, you and any number of people can believe anything you like, which in itself doesn't count for any kind of proof of anything.
Originally posted by Flash:
I simply do not understand how anyone can stand on the west rim of the Grand Canyon at sunset, and not "see" the hand of God. |
I don't understand how people can be faced with irrefutable scientific evidence - of water erosion, for example - and not accept that it reasonably explains the observable universe around us. |
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01/03/2008 10:24:19 AM · #937 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Does mathematics have a role in science? Does mathematics prove science or does science prove mathematics? Is astrology (the study of the heavens), a science? Did the Mayan's or Nostradamaeus or the 3 wise men effectively use mathematics to unlock mysteries? Why can the local planetarium reverse the solar system back a couple of thousand years ago and detail the exact movements of the planets and illustrate the movements of Mars/Venus doing a dance in the night sky that earily resembles the "Star" known have identified the Birth of Christ and the travel path of the wise men.
I accept that atheists have a right to their positions. I simply do not understand how anyone can stand on the west rim of the Grand Canyon at sunset, and not "see" the hand of God.
BTW - Happy New Year. |
It helps if you think of mathematics as what it is; a language. One that can be used to describe and communicate scientific phenomena, as well as many other things. Mathematics doesn't prove science, nor does science prove mathematics.
Astrology is not the study of the heavens, it supposes that the motions of the planets relative to the constellations affects human behavior, which is not the case. It's amusing, and somewhat sad, that people believe in it enough that such things get printed in the paper, but it's no more true than what you read in the comics.
Astronomy, however is a science.
When I stand on the west rim of the Grand Canyon, or in the face of any natural wonder, big or small, I see the inherent beauty and wonder of the natural, evolving universe that has grown from a huge explosive event billions of years ago and grown into life and all that surrounds us, at least as we know it on this isolated speck of water and rock. In short, I look into the "face" of creation, but I don't see the hands, feet or any other body parts of God.
Happpy New Year to you as well. |
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01/03/2008 10:34:03 AM · #938 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
Why can the local planetarium reverse the solar system back a couple of thousand years ago and detail the exact movements of the planets and illustrate the movements of Mars/Venus doing a dance in the night sky that earily resembles the "Star" known have identified the Birth of Christ and the travel path of the wise men. |
That's a pretty neat trick since we don't actually know when Jesus was born. Nowhere in the Bible is a specific time given (not even the month). You'd think those wise men would have made a note of such an important date, huh? The same applies for Easter.
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Actually, what I think you mean is that the bible does not sepcifically name a date and time, as in a month/year. The planetarium presentation (although a few years ago that I saw it), placed this planetary movement to about 2034 years ago. It took several months (maybe even a couple of years) to complete the planetary "dance" and this corresponded with one of the gospels accounts of the wise men seeking a young child. Additionally, Herod put forth an edict to slay all males under the age of 3, giving further credence to the age of Christ as older than a newborn, when visited by the wisemen. Given the time it would take to travel the distances recorded and the movement of the planets during this time period and the variation of Christ's age at death (somewhere between 33-37 yrs old), there then exists multiple pieces, that bear a plausible explanation for the reference of the "star", the account of the wisemen, the edict of death to all males under 3, and the bible reference to christ as a small child when visited. This presentation included a probable birth of summer and that coincides with Jewish teachings referencing the feasts and the predicted coming.
It is sufficient for me to conclude that those choosing to ignore information other than hard fact, may of course choose to do so. I gleen information from a multitude of sources, compare, analyze, and if plausible, then leave open the possibility. Proven - No. Plausible - given the evidence, yes. |
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01/03/2008 10:44:27 AM · #939 |
Originally posted by Flash:
It is sufficient for me to conclude that those choosing to ignore information other than hard fact, may of course choose to do so. |
Those facts aren't that hard. I don't know anything about what you saw or the intentions of the people who presented it to you (there are enough people around masquerading as scientists that one should be wary), but even assuming that all the science is sound and there was some kind astronomical event 2,034 years ago, so what? Maybe it signified the latest avatar of Vishnu, or that exactly 2,034 years later, a new flavour of Doritos would be launched. The point is, anyone can interpret any event after the fact, astronomical or otherwise, in any way they like. My interpretation is that the presenters, assuming they had hard scientific data for their claims, fit the perfectly predictable movement of a couple of planets in the solar system around a mythical story that takes place in very roughly that time.
By the way, for someone with fundamental beliefs such as yourself, 2,034 years ago isn't good enough. The planetary movement would have to have occurred exactly 2,012 years ago to fit with the story as presented in the new testament. |
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01/03/2008 10:47:45 AM · #940 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Flash:
What do you call it when you are standing on the approach (bowling lane) and you KNOW that you are about to throw a strike - and you do? |
Coincidence. Maybe I misunderstand, but if you are calling this feeling the voice of God whispering in your ear that you are about to strike it big, I can only paraphrase Nietzsche and suggest that a deity with such a bass-ackwards sense of priorities would need to be abolished even if he existed. |
You did mis-understand. I was first establishing what to me is an absolute given, based upon personal experience and what I believe to be an experience of others as well - that man can and does "pre know" some things. For most of us that "foreknowledge" is short term, meaning within the next few seconds or minutes. Martial Arts and self defense teachers have long used the etheric sense as a "proven" ability -(Some soldiers refer to it as bullet ducking). Some claim to know things even a few days in advance. IF this is true, and I believe it is, then I asked, do some possess an even greater ability (as in prophecy - here is where God might come in) and then I listed various examples of historic as well as modern day "prophets". IF some possess a greater ability to tap into "foreknowledge", then how do atheists explain away prophecy. I even referenced mathematics and its use by the Mayans and Nostradamus in their astrological calculations - attempting to include what I percieve to be a more "acceptable" scientific method. My answer as I read it, is that atheists explain it away, by ignoring that it exists. Fair enough. I simply see things differently. |
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01/03/2008 10:52:18 AM · #941 |
Originally posted by Flash:
My answer as I read it, is that atheists explain it away, by ignoring that it exists. |
Actually noooo, that would be what you're doing. You're ignoring the existence of perfectly rational, reasonable explanations for all the things you're talking about, and choosing to find meaning in the irrational and supernatural. |
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01/03/2008 10:53:18 AM · #942 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Astrology is not the study of the heavens, it supposes that the motions of the planets relative to the constellations affects human behavior, which is not the case. It's amusing, and somewhat sad, that people believe in it enough that such things get printed in the paper, but it's no more true than what you read in the comics.
Astronomy, however is a science. |
I was hoping that my definition of "astrology" would be clear by including the use of mathematics, the Mayans and Nostradomus. The 3 wise men were known as "astrologers". Nostradomus was know as an "astrologer". They studied astronomy or the movement of the heavens. Thus my reference to astrology. I meant it in its historical context not its modern one. |
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01/03/2008 10:59:03 AM · #943 |
Originally posted by Flash:
It is sufficient for me to conclude that those choosing to ignore information other than hard fact, may of course choose to do so. I gleen information from a multitude of sources, compare, analyze, and if plausible, then leave open the possibility. |
"Gleen" this: without specific times and dates, planets are all but useless as directional guides. Need evidence? Go outside and pick any star or planet. Walk ten paces toward it and note where you're headed. Go outside a few hours later and walk 10 paces toward that same star or planet. Unless you happened to pick Polaris (which is neither prominent nor 2000 years old), you'll be walking to a very different town. Go outside months later and you won't even find that star as it's hidden by daylight. Without specific dates and times, any directional information you glean from a planetarium will be meaningless. You give me a window of months or years, and I'll find a bright star or planet that points to anywhere you want. This is evidence? |
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01/03/2008 11:03:18 AM · #944 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Flash:
My answer as I read it, is that atheists explain it away, by ignoring that it exists. |
Actually noooo, that would be what you're doing. You're ignoring the existence of perfectly rational, reasonable explanations for all the things you're talking about, and choosing to find meaning in the irrational and supernatural. |
There is no rational explanation on why sometiomes I have "foreknowledge" and most times I do not. There is no rational explanation on why some people have an enhanced ability to tune in their "etheric". There is no rational explanation why some soldiers "sense" that they need to move from a particular spot and moments later that very spot they were in explodes. These to me are so absolute, that they qualify as givens. Upon which the rest of the argument is then presented. If you cannot agree on the premise, then there is no sense to the balance of the agument. If you limit mankind to only 5 senses, then any discussion of "foreknowledge" (except through experience - I can know that my pencil will fall the next time I let it go from my hand, as it fell the last 1000 times I let it go), and any attempt to explain God(s) via prophecy is futile. |
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01/03/2008 11:08:35 AM · #945 |
Originally posted by Flash:
There is no rational explanation on why sometiomes I have "foreknowledge" and most times I do not. There is no rational explanation why some soldiers "sense" that they need to move from a particular spot and moments later that very spot they were in explodes. |
It's called guessing. Sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong. Only the soldier who guesses correctly will be around to tell you about his foreknowledge. For the other guy's foreknowledge, some assembly will be required. |
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01/03/2008 11:10:02 AM · #946 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
...... some assembly will be required. |
Ewwwwie!
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01/03/2008 11:12:04 AM · #947 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I was hoping that my definition of "astrology" would be clear by including the use of mathematics, the Mayans and Nostradomus. The 3 wise men were known as "astrologers". Nostradomus was know as an "astrologer". They studied astronomy or the movement of the heavens. Thus my reference to astrology. I meant it in its historical context not its modern one. |
The modern definition of astrology is the same as the historical one. Superstitions about the stars' influence on daily life were even more prevalent back then than they are now. |
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01/03/2008 11:13:07 AM · #948 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
"Gleen" this: without specific times and dates, planets are all but useless as directional guides. Need evidence? Go outside and pick any star or planet. Walk ten paces toward it and note where you're headed. Go outside a few hours later and walk 10 paces toward that same star or planet. |
Except, when the planets (2 bright planets), due to their orbit, "appear" to be connected and travel a singular line from point A to point B, maintaining position to each other over the course of several months/years. This planetary event is a perception from earth and its viewable occurrence is on some "x" time table - typically thousands and thousands of years apart. |
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01/03/2008 11:14:39 AM · #949 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Astrology is not the study of the heavens, it supposes that the motions of the planets relative to the constellations affects human behavior, which is not the case. It's amusing, and somewhat sad, that people believe in it enough that such things get printed in the paper, but it's no more true than what you read in the comics.
Astronomy, however is a science. |
I was hoping that my definition of "astrology" would be clear by including the use of mathematics, the Mayans and Nostradamus. The 3 wise men were known as "astrologers". Nostradamus was know as an "astrologer". They studied astronomy or the movement of the heavens. Thus my reference to astrology. I meant it in its historical context not its modern one. |
As far as I know, the Mayans did not use their study of the heavens to predict future cataclysmic events, but as a tool for keeping track of time, seasons, events etc.
Nostradamus on the other hand, did engage in such foolishness. His predictions/prophecies are no more true than any modern astrologers.
As for the three wise men, I know of no documentation of their activities aside from what's in the Bible. Maybe they simply studied the heavens to know when to plant crops etc. Maybe they read more into it and believed celestial events had a causal relationship with events here on earth. Without more information, it's hard to say.
The "science" of astrology was no more valid then, than it is now. It's roughly the same as Phrenology. Correlation does not prove a causal relationship.
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01/03/2008 11:15:59 AM · #950 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
The modern definition of astrology is the same as the historical one. |
I believe this is incorrect. |
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