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12/19/2007 09:14:36 PM · #101 |
a little OT, but since you felt it necessary to throw this into the conversation...
with only cursory research, that article is a completely biased load of crap, with only faint shreds of truth. not only were those who were 'enslaved' illegal aliens, but the enslavers are illegals...original story (posted weeks ago) here... |
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12/19/2007 09:31:55 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Is your friend's husband a lettuce picker? a hotel maid? dishwasher?
Those are the predominant types of jobs held by illegals. Citizens would not do those kinds of jobs for, especially not for the wages they pay. Unless you're prepared for a ten-fold increase in the cost of agricultural products, you should re-think that.
I'm more concerned about technical jobs (and the expertise to perform them) being shipped overseas to Asia.
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Those jobs pay less because there are illegals accepting the lower pay. And yes if i have to pay more for an apple so that the worker gets a fair salary, i will gladly do that. |
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12/19/2007 09:34:36 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by jemison:
Originally posted by Gotaka:
I am afraid Ron Paul is the only true President on the platform of either party. The only one who has been opposed to the war from the outset and wants to get out as soon as possible. |
Not so...both Kucinich and Richardson were opposed from the beginning and want us out ASAP.
If I had my way, the Rupubli-cons would never ever get their hands on power again. Never. Never. Of course, I've been saying that since '68. |
Yea I agree with that. However, Ron Paul is probably the only grassroots candidate who may have a chance against the big corporate candidates, the darlings of the old media. Kucinich is actually very good friend of Ron, but I hate to admit it, I don't know much about Richardson. I am betting Kucinich is going to endorse Ron Paul (his wife already made that clear when she was asking for a ticket with Paul).
PS I am very delighted to see people here are very receptive rather than impulsive towards the elections and especially Ron Paul.
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12/19/2007 09:35:41 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
How much does tuition at a good state school cost these days anyway? |
One can always apply to Harvard -- under their new policy, those with a family income under $60,000 will pay no tuition. |
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12/19/2007 09:37:29 PM · #105 |
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12/19/2007 09:40:03 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Chinabun:
E) get rid of illegals who take our jobs (my best friend is about to lose her house because they fired her contractor husband and are paying illegals to do the job for half the cost)
AND! They should also fire the people who work in the immigration department when you call and inform them of the illegals (where they are, who they work for) and they never get back to you or act like they will do anything about it. |
Is your friend's husband a lettuce picker? a hotel maid? dishwasher?
Those are the predominant types of jobs held by illegals. Citizens would not do those kinds of jobs for, especially not for the wages they pay. Unless you're prepared for a ten-fold increase in the cost of agricultural products, you should re-think that.
I'm more concerned about technical jobs (and the expertise to perform them) being shipped overseas to Asia.
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Gotta disagree with you a bit Spaz as far as the jobs effected by illegal immigration. The area I live has seen a MAJOR influx and the construction industry is being hit hard. Many contractors are firing their experienced crews and hiring the cheaper labor just to make a bigger profit. Thankfully my husband does not work for one of those outfits but nearly everyday he's talking to guys who've had to settle for jobs that are paying half of what they used to make...and the wages truly suck here to begin with. Luckily my husband works for a business that specializes in old home restoration, being "Director of Historic Preservation", his job is fairly secure considering it is in construction to begin with. There is also the problem of communication, when one of the subs send out an entire crew that doesn't speak english...things get difficult to say the least.
There needs to be stiffer penalties for those who hire illegal workers...way stiffer, make it hurt and maybe they'll stop doing it. I don't care where someone is from, but I want them to be here legally and pay their taxes...I really don't think that's asking too much. |
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12/19/2007 09:42:44 PM · #107 |
Hillary Clinton 8 years, then Jeff bush 8 years then Chelsea Clinton 8 years, then some other Bush family member 8 years, then another Clinton family members... and so on :(
We should wake up and get rid of the old and give opportunity someone new.
I say go Fred Thomson :) |
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12/19/2007 09:56:30 PM · #108 |
| Damn. I had not decided on how to vote. But now it's clear, I simply have to move. Next dilema...Canada or Mexico....I don't speak spanish but it's warmer there. Hmmmmm..dilema, dilema. |
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12/19/2007 09:58:49 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Is your friend's husband a lettuce picker? a hotel maid? dishwasher?
Those are the predominant types of jobs held by illegals. Citizens would not do those kinds of jobs for, especially not for the wages they pay. Unless you're prepared for a ten-fold increase in the cost of agricultural products, you should re-think that. |
The going rate to hire one back in AZ for day labor was $10-15/hour. Considering they get paid cash, that's $15-20 for you and me since we pay taxes. How many Americans would work for $15-20/hour? The work was mostly landscaping, but also skilled construction trades such as drywall, concrete, painting, framing, masonry... It drives wages down and put a lot of hard working Americans out of work. I've seen it first hand.
edit to add link that backs up my experience:
//www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/business/yourmoney/03view.html?pagewanted=print
I don't agree with the point of the article, but their facts back up my argument that they are paid pretty well and don't just do the jobs Americans won't.
Message edited by author 2007-12-19 22:16:42.
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12/19/2007 10:11:02 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
Hillary Clinton 8 years, then Jeff bush 8 years then Chelsea Clinton 8 years, then some other Bush family member 8 years, then another Clinton family members... and so on :(
We should wake up and get rid of the old and give opportunity someone new.
I say go Fred Thomson :) |
I'm gonna have to root for 'ol Fred myself, I really like him, seems like he has his head on straight, and i like that he's a bit older, and could earn some respect, if Hillary Clinton wins, I will likely move to Iceland.
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12/19/2007 10:15:38 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by ryand:
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
Hillary Clinton 8 years, then Jeff bush 8 years then Chelsea Clinton 8 years, then some other Bush family member 8 years, then another Clinton family members... and so on :(
We should wake up and get rid of the old and give opportunity someone new.
I say go Fred Thomson :) |
I'm gonna have to root for 'ol Fred myself, I really like him, seems like he has his head on straight, and i like that he's a bit older, and could earn some respect, if Hillary Clinton wins, I will likely move to Iceland. |
I like Fred best of who is running, but he needs to get off his butt and make the news so people hear about him!
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12/19/2007 10:17:11 PM · #112 |
heck, let all (the rest) of the illegals come to NC.
They can get a driver's license without proof of citizenship.
When they get a driver's license they can register to vote.
Annnnd, if the governor has his way, if they are illegal, they can still attend community colleges in the state. (one source I read said for free, others didn't mention that). |
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12/19/2007 10:26:04 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by kolasi:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Is your friend's husband a lettuce picker? a hotel maid? dishwasher?
Those are the predominant types of jobs held by illegals. Citizens would not do those kinds of jobs for, especially not for the wages they pay. Unless you're prepared for a ten-fold increase in the cost of agricultural products, you should re-think that.
I'm more concerned about technical jobs (and the expertise to perform them) being shipped overseas to Asia.
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Those jobs pay less because there are illegals accepting the lower pay. And yes if i have to pay more for an apple so that the worker gets a fair salary, i will gladly do that. |
You'd be willing to multiply your grocery bill by 5 and pay that??
It's not just the fact that an apple would cost $2, a head of lettuce $5, it would drive up the cost of milk, bread and just about any other food item to ridiculous levels.
How about doubling your room rate at hotels?
Tripling the cost of your meal out?
Assuming the farmers could even find people willing to do the work at any wage. Americans are not going to stoop over in the hot sun, picking produce for 12 hr/day for a job that only lasts 3-4 months out of the year.
Then you'll be posting on here, bemoaning the fact that there just aren't any farms left and how your grocery bill is now more than your mortgage payment.
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12/19/2007 10:43:40 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by kolasi:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Is your friend's husband a lettuce picker? a hotel maid? dishwasher?
Those are the predominant types of jobs held by illegals. Citizens would not do those kinds of jobs for, especially not for the wages they pay. Unless you're prepared for a ten-fold increase in the cost of agricultural products, you should re-think that.
I'm more concerned about technical jobs (and the expertise to perform them) being shipped overseas to Asia.
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Those jobs pay less because there are illegals accepting the lower pay. And yes if i have to pay more for an apple so that the worker gets a fair salary, i will gladly do that. |
You'd be willing to multiply your grocery bill by 5 and pay that??
It's not just the fact that an apple would cost $2, a head of lettuce $5, it would drive up the cost of milk, bread and just about any other food item to ridiculous levels.
How about doubling your room rate at hotels?
Tripling the cost of your meal out?
Assuming the farmers could even find people willing to do the work at any wage. Americans are not going to stoop over in the hot sun, picking produce for 12 hr/day for a job that only lasts 3-4 months out of the year.
Then you'll be posting on here, bemoaning the fact that there just aren't any farms left and how your grocery bill is now more than your mortgage payment. |
First, people would do the jobs.
Second, it doesn't really matter, they are illegal, if they come in through the ways that we have setup, I would be glad to hire them, but the point is, they aren't paying taxes, they aren't paying social security, they are getting drivers licenses (and a lot of them have never driven before making our roads more dangerous), they are stealing our jobs. I would love for them to come and live here if they will come through the legal channels, the reason they are doing it for so cheap, is because they aren't paying the taxes.
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12/19/2007 10:47:36 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You'd be willing to multiply your grocery bill by 5 and pay that??
It's not just the fact that an apple would cost $2, a head of lettuce $5, it would drive up the cost of milk, bread and just about any other food item to ridiculous levels.
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I wouldn't mind, if I had a choice. What we don't talk about is the increased price of the food we pay for through farm subsidies. The same farmers who get the subsidies also pay their laborers the farm wage (which make a joke of minimum wage); or they hire illegals who are not subject to taxation or worker's compensation insurance.
I believe that our food should be grown in a free market, without the intervention of government and corporate interests. |
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12/19/2007 11:12:02 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by ryand:
... if they come in through the ways that we have setup ... |
... they'd be waiting up to four years for their application to be processed. |
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12/19/2007 11:15:38 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You'd be willing to multiply your grocery bill by 5 and pay that??
It's not just the fact that an apple would cost $2, a head of lettuce $5, it would drive up the cost of milk, bread and just about any other food item to ridiculous levels.
How about doubling your room rate at hotels?
Tripling the cost of your meal out?
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Lets see the math behind those numbers. How does a hotel room rate double just because the maid's pay goes up a little? Even if the maid's pay doubles? If it took an hour to do a room that would add what, $10/room? Per the illegal immigrant friendly NY Times they make about the same as legal citizens. only they don't pay taxes and they don't reinvest the money in the US.
But yes, I'm willing to pay more if it means all those jobs are now filled with tax paying Americans that spend their money here.
And, I agree with the article that there would possibly/probably be a labor shortage, which is why I'd be in favor of legal migrant workers that pay taxes, come here legally, and go home.
Frankly, I'm shocked that you are against oursourcing American tech jobs, but have no problem with manual labor being outsourced.
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12/19/2007 11:30:25 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You'd be willing to multiply your grocery bill by 5 and pay that??
It's not just the fact that an apple would cost $2, a head of lettuce $5, it would drive up the cost of milk, bread and just about any other food item to ridiculous levels.
How about doubling your room rate at hotels?
Tripling the cost of your meal out?
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Lets see the math behind those numbers. How does a hotel room rate double just because the maid's pay goes up a little? Even if the maid's pay doubles? If it took an hour to do a room that would add what, $10/room? Per the illegal immigrant friendly NY Times they make about the same as legal citizens. only they don't pay taxes and they don't reinvest the money in the US.
But yes, I'm willing to pay more if it means all those jobs are now filled with tax paying Americans that spend their money here.
And, I agree with the article that there would possibly/probably be a labor shortage, which is why I'd be in favor of legal migrant workers that pay taxes, come here legally, and go home.
Frankly, I'm shocked that you are against oursourcing American tech jobs, but have no problem with manual labor being outsourced. |
eh yeah with same logic about paying 10 fold for fruit, I could say well why should I pay 10 fold the cost of IT work when I can get it so cheap if its outsoursed.
Plus the prices will nto have to be that high, Dole and Sunkist will just have a lower profit margin which i could care less about |
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12/19/2007 11:38:17 PM · #119 |
What I'd like to see is labor laws enforced on the employer side. The problem is not the workers coming in, they're just trying to feed their families. The problem is that huge corporate employers use this labor knowingly, because they know they can get away with it. It's an end run around labor laws.
Start prosecuting employers for paying below minimum (regardless of the legal status of the worker) and your problem dissapears. Criminalizing the workers does no one any good, it's just a way to shift the focus away from the structural problems underlying the whole system.
Not that any of the candidates from either party would ever think of taking this on. |
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12/19/2007 11:50:11 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by eamurdock:
What I'd like to see is labor laws enforced on the employer side. The problem is not the workers coming in, they're just trying to feed their families. The problem is that huge corporate employers use this labor knowingly, because they know they can get away with it. It's an end run around labor laws.
Start prosecuting employers for paying below minimum (regardless of the legal status of the worker) and your problem dissapears. Criminalizing the workers does no one any good, it's just a way to shift the focus away from the structural problems underlying the whole system.
Not that any of the candidates from either party would ever think of taking this on. |
I think this may be the first time I agree 100% with one of your posts!
AZ just put in place strict laws like this. First offense they lose their business license for a week, second offense the lose it for good (if i remember right)!
edit to add news link to the law in AZ
//www.fool.com/news/associated-press/2007/12/18/az-sanctions-probes-to-start-in-january.aspx
Message edited by author 2007-12-19 23:54:03.
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12/19/2007 11:50:27 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by eamurdock:
What I'd like to see is labor laws enforced on the employer side. The problem is not the workers coming in, they're just trying to feed their families. The problem is that huge corporate employers use this labor knowingly, because they know they can get away with it. It's an end run around labor laws.
Start prosecuting employers for paying below minimum (regardless of the legal status of the worker) and your problem dissapears. Criminalizing the workers does no one any good, it's just a way to shift the focus away from the structural problems underlying the whole system.
Not that any of the candidates from either party would ever think of taking this on. |
How about this six-point solution?
* Physically secure our borders and coastlines. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country before we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals.
* Enforce visa rules. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays their visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired visas.
* No amnesty. Estimates suggest that 10 to 20 million people are in our country illegally. That̢۪s a lot of people to reward for breaking our laws.
* No welfare for illegal aliens. Americans have welcomed immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. But taxpayers should not pay for illegal immigrants who use hospitals, clinics, schools, roads, and social services.
* End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong.
* Pass true immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. But current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity. Legal immigrants from all countries should face the same rules and waiting periods.
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12/20/2007 12:05:22 AM · #122 |
1) Ok, recognizing that "physically securing the border" in any real way is a practical impossibility. But I'm all for taking reasonable steps to control who comes in.
2) Again, I agree in principle but in reality this will be difficult.
3) Don't agree 100% here, as most of them are here as part of a system that we knowingly and deliberately created. And as I stated above, the immigrants are not the problem, the system and the employers are. The finger pointing at the poorest of workers is a smokescreen, and a deliberate and strategic one.
4) Again, don't agree - but my take (as I've stated else where) is that health care is a human right. Also kids that are here are just kids and don't get any say in the matter... they deserve to be taken care of.
5) well, there goes the citizenship of most of us. Or is it only new immigrants you want to get rid of?
6) I expect we disagree on the details, but I absolutely agree that reform is needed.
Gotta go to bed... no doubt I'll be back tomorrow. ;) |
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12/20/2007 12:11:38 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by eamurdock:
5) well, there goes the citizenship of most of us. Or is it only new immigrants you want to get rid of? |
Yes, I think the Pilgrims have definitely overstayed their visas. |
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12/20/2007 12:47:33 AM · #124 |
| Wow, did this thread ever run off topic!! |
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12/20/2007 06:20:09 AM · #125 |
I can't imagine why someone would come to this country to be treated this way. Maybe we're sending people over the boarder to kidnap them, like in slavery days. |
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