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12/15/2007 01:10:27 AM · #101 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
That 9 FPS is needed for what exactly? To take pictures fast? To make a movie? The Shutter that produces all that power does nothing more than waste battery power. Sure it's a camera, but it only gets 780 Pictures per battery charge. It's the Humvee of cameras. |
Same question basically, because it can...:)
Message edited by author 2007-12-15 01:12:22. |
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12/15/2007 07:21:13 AM · #102 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The problem is the inherent lag in a turbo when accelerating with a gas vehicle. A supercharger, on the other hand, since it is engine driven, has no such lag and, IMO, is the way to both increase power and improve efficiency with "smaller" gasoline engines.
Supercharging would allow a 1.8 or 1.5 liter 4cyl engine to replace a V6, with no decrease, or even an increase, in power while retaining the economy associated with the smaller engine. |
Yeah, but the problem with superchargers is that they're fairly expensive because extremely sensitive to meticulous manufacture and assembly thereby rendering them pretty much outside reasonable costing for mass production.....at least for cars.
Turbo technology has come pretty far in the last decade and a half.....they're nowhere near as fragile and peaky as they used to be, but they're still subject to failure if not cared for pretty conscientiously.
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12/15/2007 07:26:29 AM · #103 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Besides that the Lexas GS450h has 339hp and someone is comparing it with a car with 203hp (That goes like stink) LOL... Case closed in my book, Apples to oranges... |
Yeah, okay.......you have a good handle on that powertrain mapping for that CVT?
Maybe you ought to go drive one, okay so they rebadged it, whoopee, and see what it accelerates like.
Oh, and BTW, you seem to have pointedly ignored about half my questions.
What about the one about the DAF Variomatic.....do a little research and you'll discover why the 500/Taurus runs so well.
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12/15/2007 07:58:09 AM · #104 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Funny I have no problem getting information, factory level is easily accessable via internet. Implode is funny its been said for years and years, same old same old. So ya got out, got to hot for ya I guess. Im glad you did, don't need more negative people who hate pretty much everything about cars, good riddance to bad attitude people. If ya hate what you do I encourage them MOVE ON! |
It has nothing to do with hating what I do, I love cars and always will......it's patently obvious that I've learned a lot more than you have over the years, the first part of which is having a pretty comprehensive view of exactly how much I don't and can't know. There's simply way too much to assimilate in order to be competently informed.
You're sadly mistaken if you think you can get the flow of information off the 'Net......the important relevant info is PROPRIETARY, and the manufacturers will NOT provide it, nor do they have to. YOU CAN NOT GET THIS INFORMATION, and if you do, it's obtained illegally. Yes, they are mandated by law to provide things like the generic OBD-II info that is necessary to enact emission repoairs, but do you really think you have accesss to the datastream of info that is downloaded EVERY DAY at the dealer level? Obviously, you're not even aware of what's going on in the industry. On a daily basis, I was watching fixes coming in for known issues that merely reprogramming an engine or trans processor was taking care of......the kind of issues that you'd swear were a hard mechanical fault. And trust me when I say that the caliber of the existing technicians is not up to the task of the learning curve of the accelerating technology. So where do you think that leaves the people who have to try and sort out problems after the fact?
If you think this is not a problem, then go work at a dealer and take a survey of the comebacks as to their technical issues. There simply are not enough good, qualified techs out there to service these vehicles properly, and nobody's beating a path to the door. Look at the staytisitics for new techs coming in versus older mechanics retiring.....the numbers are frightening.
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Depends on the company you keep.. Ask MattO or BradP some great techs |
I'm a little at a loss to understand the exact context of your comment........BTW, concise communication is crucial in this expanding industry....perhaps you'd care to take an English class or two. Anyway, I'll muddle through as best I can......the company I keep would be actual factory techs, independents who are the go-to guys in the area, and of course, a couple of people I've met over the years at the factory level, and people who actually design and manufacture various automotive related products.
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Like I said it depends how dedicated is to their choosen career, I love training classes, love to learn more. Been a part of a automotive tech website for the last 12 years. Love to expand knowledge, learn from the engineers of the systems. |
Oh yeah......you'd be one of those guys that are the most dangerous of all who work on cars....those guys that are convinced they know it all.
I have always KNOWN that I lack the appropriate knowledge as the industry changes, and have been careful to do intense research before undertaking something new. I'm not just convinced that I know more than the next guy and charge in blindly.
And the Internet sites?
I was a list admin on a Jag site for two and a half years......predominantly enthusiasts, and you know what? Most didn't have preconceived notions about their own talents so they tended to be open-minded and willing to learn as well as not having bad habits to overcome. I learned one hell of a lot from those people who just loved their cars, instead of being surrounded by people with overblown egos about their own worth. I can't tell you how many times some guy who had all weekend to look at a problem with a different point of view came up with an interesting, and effective, fix for a long term problem.
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Thanks for your negitive shallow view. Im glad the next generation is stepping up, while yours spools out bitching about stuff you don't want to learn. BTW you Ford 500 or is it a Taurus same old same old, doesn't hold a candle to the Lexus... I think your the one resistance to change IMHO... |
In your arrogant fashion, you kind of seem to be selectively addressing minor issues and attacking who I am instead of addressing the actual situation. I'm, once again, not going to bother to try and defend myself to you, I don't care one whit what your opinion is of me, I know what I'm doing in life, but if you don't open your eyes and your mind, you're going to wake up one day and find yourself with no future. There is no consistency in the automotive technical field, there is no national system of licensing, training, and governing who works on cars and how they do so, therefore incompetent, untrustworthy people everywhere operate freely, butchering cars and stealing from people with no possibility of redress other than the civil court system, which automatically has the consumer at a disadvantage because the offending person can blow smoke at the system with technical jargon and suspect rationale for his offenses.....I see that all the time. Are you really so clueless and locked up in the whole scam that you're unwilling to see the problems in the industry and work towards changing them?
I got out of what I do, and did, as a result of complete exhaustion as much as anything else and the honesty to admit that I couldn't keep up. I predominantly worked restoring and maintaining antique and vintage cars the last few years of my shop, but that didn't stop me from still doing occasional general repairs.
It wasn't bad attitude, but a calculated realistic overview that I wouldn't be able to access info that is completely necessary, and the equipment with any realistic expectation of cost that made me re-evaluate my career.
Message edited by author 2007-12-15 13:22:45.
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12/15/2007 09:56:59 AM · #105 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The problem is the inherent lag in a turbo when accelerating with a gas vehicle. A supercharger, on the other hand, since it is engine driven, has no such lag and, IMO, is the way to both increase power and improve efficiency with "smaller" gasoline engines.
Supercharging would allow a 1.8 or 1.5 liter 4cyl engine to replace a V6, with no decrease, or even an increase, in power while retaining the economy associated with the smaller engine. |
Yeah, but the problem with superchargers is that they're fairly expensive because extremely sensitive to meticulous manufacture and assembly thereby rendering them pretty much outside reasonable costing for mass production.....at least for cars.
Turbo technology has come pretty far in the last decade and a half.....they're nowhere near as fragile and peaky as they used to be, but they're still subject to failure if not cared for pretty conscientiously. |
Volkswagen has a supercharger (and a turbo) on their award winning and very efficient Superturbo engine in Europe. Mercedes has a sedan that they sell with a supercharged 4cyl engine in Europe. They used to sell the same engine here in the US, but they replaced it with a V6 that gets 10% less fuel economy and makes fewer hp simply because rather then evaluate the car on performance, customers say, "I want a V6.", which really means, "I want to waste fuel and have less power." Superchargers can also be found on Jaguars, Ford, Audi, BMW and GM vehicles.
As to the cost, it's like anything else, the more of them that are made, the cheaper it is to make them. In that regard, they're no different than any other automotive component. Compared to the premium that people are willing to cough up for a hybrid, the premium for a supercharger is pretty small, particularly when offset by the decrease in cost and weight from having a smaller engine.
Message edited by author 2007-12-15 10:01:17.
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12/15/2007 01:31:46 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Volkswagen has a supercharger (and a turbo) on their award winning and very efficient Superturbo engine in Europe. Mercedes has a sedan that they sell with a supercharged 4cyl engine in Europe. They used to sell the same engine here in the US, but they replaced it with a V6 that gets 10% less fuel economy and makes fewer hp simply because rather then evaluate the car on performance, customers say, "I want a V6.", which really means, "I want to waste fuel and have less power." Superchargers can also be found on Jaguars, Ford, Audi, BMW and GM vehicles.
As to the cost, it's like anything else, the more of them that are made, the cheaper it is to make them. In that regard, they're no different than any other automotive component. Compared to the premium that people are willing to cough up for a hybrid, the premium for a supercharger is pretty small, particularly when offset by the decrease in cost and weight from having a smaller engine. |
The unfortunate thing about blowers, be they exhaust or belt driven is that here in the US, they are predominantly perceived as a performance enhancement rather than as devices of efficiency. As long as that mindset persists, there will be no change here. Europeans understand this because gas is $6 a gallon, and they tax the hell out of any engine over 2.0 litres.
Imagine a lightweight, 1.1 four cylinder supercharged, AND turbocharged car that gets 65 mpg! Impossible? Hardly......but the US consumer would not stand still for it if it meant giving up the 0-60 times of being able to haul the kids to a soccer game once a week. We don't learn........we have more heavy, gas guzzling vehicles on the road now than we did during the Arab oil embargo in 1973.....and we thought we were going to run out of oil then!
So we don't get the good stuff, and all the R&D is done in Europe because they care and want to make cars more efficient.
We have the best resources in the world to design and manufacture the finest cars anywhere, and we don't utilize the capabilities. It's really a shame.
And as long as both the manufacturers, and the consumers here in the US patently refuse to take responsibility for their profligate waste of resources, it's not likely to get any better.
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12/15/2007 01:38:19 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
That 9 FPS is needed for what exactly? To take pictures fast? To make a movie? The Shutter that produces all that power does nothing more than waste battery power. Sure it's a camera, but it only gets 780 Pictures per battery charge. It's the Humvee of cameras. |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Same question basically, because it can...:) |
Are you for real???????
There is no relevance on any level to these performance comparisons!
We're talking about some gas guzzling, hyper-expensive, pretentious excuse for an answer to a question that was never asked, not a camera!
Are you seriously trying to draw a corollary here?
There actually are sports and fashion photographers that CAN, and do utilize these features, but on no level is the performance of that Lexus justified on any level. Maybe as a police car......I'd love to be at the town meeting when they suggested replacing the Crown Vic with that! LOL!!!
Oh, and it's in really bad form to grossly misquote someone in such a manner......but perhaps you never picked that up with your vast Internet experience.
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12/15/2007 05:03:01 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It has nothing to do with hating what I do, I love cars and always will......it's patently obvious that I've learned a lot more than you have over the years, the first part of which is having a pretty comprehensive view of exactly how much I don't and can't know. There's simply way too much to assimilate in order to be competently informed.
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Sorry I rubbed your fur the wrong way, Im not saying I know everything, but I can get the information (Factory info) right off the net. Sure you might have to pay $10-$20 dollars for a 24hour access, but its factory information, from the factory websites, same as the dealer uses.
Factory websites
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
You're sadly mistaken if you think you can get the flow of information off the 'Net......the important relevant info is PROPRIETARY, and the manufacturers will NOT provide it, nor do they have to. YOU CAN NOT GET THIS INFORMATION, and if you do, it's obtained illegally. Yes, they are mandated by law to provide things like the generic OBD-II info that is necessary to enact emission repoairs, but do you really think you have accesss to the datastream of info that is downloaded EVERY DAY at the dealer level? Obviously, you're not even aware of what's going on in the industry. On a daily basis, I was watching fixes coming in for known issues that merely reprogramming an engine or trans processor was taking care of......the kind of issues that you'd swear were a hard mechanical fault. And trust me when I say that the caliber of the existing technicians is not up to the task of the learning curve of the accelerating technology. So where do you think that leaves the people who have to try and sort out problems after the fact?
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Yes you can download it right from their websites. You do have to have a subscription, and use of the factory scan tool is the best way. Domestics use a Tech2, IDS(PDS), DRB3(starscan). Then you too can flash away, course I don't recommend just flashing to the latest, inless the flash is going to address the problem
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If you think this is not a problem, then go work at a dealer and take a survey of the comebacks as to their technical issues. There simply are not enough good, qualified techs out there to service these vehicles properly, and nobody's beating a path to the door. Look at the staytisitics for new techs coming in versus older mechanics retiring.....the numbers are frightening.
[quote=MQuinn]Depends on the company you keep.. Ask MattO or BradP some great techs |
I'm a little at a loss to understand the exact context of your comment........BTW, concise communication is crucial in this expanding industry....perhaps you'd care to take an English class or two. Anyway, I'll muddle through as best I can......the company I keep would be actual factory techs, independents who are the go-to guys in the area, and of course, a couple of people I've met over the years at the factory level, and people who actually design and manufacture various automotive related products.
[/qoute]
Hmmm, now, now staytisitics guy, we are just communicating. Just Im not doom and gloom on this industry, I see as it as a niche thats weeding out those that can't keep up. I love the pace this industry is going, more and more computerized. Plug in a factory scanner and see what the car is doing. Heck technology has made it easier for me, no more guessing...
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I have always KNOWN that I lack the appropriate knowledge as the industry changes, and have been careful to do intense research before undertaking something new. I'm not just convinced that I know more than the next guy and charge in blindly.
And the Internet sites?
I was a list admin on a Jag site for two and a half years......predominantly enthusiasts, and you know what? Most didn't have preconceived notions about their own talents so they tended to be open-minded and willing to learn as well as not having bad habits to overcome. I learned one hell of a lot from those people who just loved their cars, instead of being surrounded by people with overblown egos about their own worth. I can't tell you how many times some guy who had all weekend to look at a problem with a different point of view came up with an interesting, and effective, fix for a long term problem.
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Jag site.. I don't work on Jags to be honest, not a popular car around here. But heres on that I have been on for the last 12 years iATN totally opened my eyes to this field, learning from 50,000 techs around the world.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
In your arrogant fashion, you kind of seem to be selectively addressing minor issues and attacking who I am instead of addressing the actual situation. I'm, once again, not going to bother to try and defend myself to you, I don't care one whit what your opinion is of me, I know what I'm doing in life, but if you don't open your eyes and your mind, you're going to wake up one day and find yourself with no future. There is no consistency in the automotive technical field, there is no national system of licensing, training, and governing who works on cars and how they do so, therefore incompetent, untrustworthy people everywhere operate freely, butchering cars and stealing from people with no possibility of redress other than the civil court system, which automatically has the consumer at a disadvantage because the offending person can blow smoke at the system with technical jargon and suspect rationale for his offenses.....I see that all the time. Are you really so clueless and locked up in the whole scam that you're unwilling to see the problems in the industry and work towards changing them?
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Sure there are problems, and yes Im trying to help from the inside using NASTF, ASA, and the iATN to work on the issues. But you know what these are not new issue, nor are they issues just in the automotive industry. Every industry has it hacks, plain and simple..
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I got out of what I do, and did, as a result of complete exhaustion as much as anything else and the honesty to admit that I couldn't keep up. I predominantly worked restoring and maintaining antique and vintage cars the last few years of my shop, but that didn't stop me from still doing occasional general repairs.
It wasn't bad attitude, but a calculated realistic overview that I wouldn't be able to access info that is completely necessary, and the equipment with any realistic expectation of cost that made me re-evaluate my career. |
As I orginally stated hybrid cars don't cost anymore to produce, but they do offer fuel savings, and emissions savings. Factory info is available, at those sites I linked. Yes factory tooling and info does cost money, but it really depends on your focus of car makes you work on. I work on mainly Domestics, Asian, VW/Audi, we won't even do an oil change on a BMW, or MB, simply because we lack the tooling or working knowledge to work on these makes. |
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12/15/2007 11:04:29 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Sorry I rubbed your fur the wrong way, Im not saying I know everything, but I can get the information (Factory info) right off the net. Sure you might have to pay $10-$20 dollars for a 24hour access, but its factory information, from the factory websites, same as the dealer uses.
Factory websites |
You're not listening.....and I'm just going to give up after this, because I know I can't talk to a closed mind.
I have NOTHING to gain from this whole discussion, except possibly having given someone a seed of doubt and motivation to look further than what they do now.
The information that you can get is only the rudimentary information that the manufacturer is required to give the aftermarket by government mandate. And possibly older, not terribly relevant information. what's their advantage to making propprietary info available to the aftermarket? The biggest drive in service at the dealer level is to recapture the service work that gets lost after the warranty period. The dealers are driven by the parent company to pull in the work that they've lost over the years.
Have you heard about the Ford speed control switch recall? Ford has sent out recall letters to vehicles going back more than twenty years, and the accompanying literature to the dealer? It says that these cars that have been out of the dealer that will be coming in for this recall are an excellent opportunity to reclaim lost service work!
How slimy is that!!!!! Because the industry is hurting and they want every nickel they can get, they're taking a legitimate recall from a few vehicles and expanding it to suck in vehicles that are NOT affected. So they are NOT going to divulge anything that they do not have to for as long as they can. When you work for a dealer, you WILL be fired on the spot if you're discovered disseminating information to an outside tech. Why do you suppose that is?
And as far as the flow goes? EVERY SINGLE DAY the update download takes from fifteen minutes to multiple hours to download and I'm talking IDS/WDS/TSBs/FSMs/Recalls........this is NOT information that you are likely to be able to acquire in some cases for years.
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Yes you can download it right from their websites. You do have to have a subscription, and use of the factory scan tool is the best way. Domestics use a Tech2, IDS(PDS), DRB3(starscan). Then you too can flash away, course I don't recommend just flashing to the latest, inless the flash is going to address the problem |
Trust me, you cannot get into //www.FMCDealer.com
Just for giggles, click it and read it.
Not without a DEALER/Ford issued password and the accompanying job.
After six months at the dealer, I was just starting to get a really good handle on how powerful a tool this was and I was on it all day, every day when I was there.
I got locked out within 48 hours of the end of my job.....I checked.
THEY WILL NOT GIVE YOU RELEVANT INFORMATION.
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Hmmm, now, now staytisitics guy, we are just communicating. Just Im not doom and gloom on this industry, I see as it as a niche thats weeding out those that can't keep up. I love the pace this industry is going, more and more computerized. Plug in a factory scanner and see what the car is doing. Heck technology has made it easier for me, no more guessing... |
All a scan tool tells you is what it's programmed to tell you. You can isolate certain things but it's useless for intermittent issues in most cases, not to mention the whole flat rate debacle, and any tool is only as good as the person using it. There are an awful lot of techs that have technical training and not real world experience. And too many trainees, and new techs are under the misguided idea that a scan tool is going to do the diagnostic work for you.....it will NOT. You have to not only know how to get the information properly, but you have to have the skill and experience to understand the system that you're monitoring, and then interpret the information correctly.
You drive into Pep Boys or Advance Auto with a Check Engine light on, and they'll scan it for nothing. You get told that it's an O2 sensor.......so go ahead, tell the folks out there how many different things could be going on that'll flip an O2 sensor code.
And don't forget to mention that some cars have four of them and you really nmeed a proper scanner that you can read a datastream to tell what's going on, etc, etc......
And I wish you would quit dismissing a serious open view of the industry as doom and gloom. I'm just being honest, which is way more than most people in the industry will be. You want to think I've been weeded out due to my ineptitude, you go right ahead, but I know what's out there, and I'll tell you what.....you just start up a thread with this title, "We all trust auto mechanics, don't we." and see how far that flies.
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Jag site.. I don't work on Jags to be honest, not a popular car around here. But heres on that I have been on for the last 12 years iATN totally opened my eyes to this field, learning from 50,000 techs around the world. |
Gee.....now why'd I know that was the site you were going to mention. Personally, I never cared much for the site because of what seemed to me to be a pretty much across the board tendency to treat newcomers like sh*t until they "Paid their dues" or some such nonsense, and I figured I just wasn't the right kind of smart guy to make it there. So I pretty much figured they didn't need my meager input, so I gave up on it. At the time I got the same kind of attitude that you expressed about Jags, and didn't see much there for them, so as that was a manistream vehicle for me at the time, I went the specialty site route. The funny thing is, with the site I ended up on, I made a lot of long term friends, learned a great deal, and had people all over the world whom I shared info back and forth with on a daily basis. Awesome stuff.
As to not working on Jags...why not? They're just cars, and as far as not popular, in most cases, I kind of found out that the majority of the problems with them were due to them not being maintained and repaired properly and their owners not being educated as to how to do so. I've repaired and driven Jags for two decades or so and found them to be as reliable, and in some cases, more reliable, than many other lines. They're just cars. Of course, there is that whole mindset that goes along with any high-end European car that they're maintenance and repair whores, but that has diminished since the rest of the world has caught up with all the technological advantages that the Europeans have enjoyed, in some cases as early as the '30s and '40s.
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Sure there are problems, and yes Im trying to help from the inside using NASTF, ASA, and the iATN to work on the issues. But you know what these are not new issue, nor are they issues just in the automotive industry. Every industry has it hacks, plain and simple.. |
Not to the levels that the automotive industry has, you know it, and saying that every industry has their hacks is obfuscation of the serious facts that it is an industry with no system of checks and balances other than survival of the fittest. Even lawyers have ethics guidelines they have to follow; not so with the automobile industry. Why is it that you don't want to talk about any of this and you want to try and cloud it?
Originally posted by MQuinn:
As I orginally stated hybrid cars don't cost anymore to produce, but they do offer fuel savings, and emissions savings. Factory info is available, at those sites I linked. Yes factory tooling and info does cost money, but it really depends on your focus of car makes you work on. I work on mainly Domestics, Asian, VW/Audi, we won't even do an oil change on a BMW, or MB, simply because we lack the tooling or working knowledge to work on these makes. |
Hey, I'm done trying to get you to admit some basic truths.....yes hybrids do cost more to manufacture AND purchase, and if you don't want to see that, fine, it's your story, you stick with it. At least you have admitted that there are certain vehicles you won't even touch, and there's a whole plethora of info, tools, and experience that you don't have, and choose not to become involved.....that was a whole lot of my initial premise, thereby creating the problem as there is dubious future in specializing due to information availability, and as the technology advances, it will be more and more difiicult to be competent as a general service facility.
Hey, remember when you could buy factory service manuals for a few dollars? Now you can only get the info on licensed discs, they are generally for vehicles outside the base warranty coverage, anfd they cost on the average, $2500+ for the series, and you don't generally get the updates from running production changes, but the original repair instructions.And special tools? Try buying them from the factory sometime.
There's just too much out there, it's advancing too fast, and the manufacturers are getting worse in their determination to cut the aftermarket out of the loop. I just didn't see trying to fight that. I've been in the business for over thirty years, I'm not 25 any more and trying to change the world. I know that nothing's going to change tomorrow, and I can recognize an exercise in futility now that I'm a little older, and avoid it before it buries me. If you want to call me culled from the herd due to weakness, so be it, but I have a whole lot less stress in my life, and I see an awful lot of people whom I respect and admire in this industry who have done it for a long time cutting their losses and moving into different fields as well. That tells me something, too. I had actually hung in there for about five years longer than some of my peers, and that was predominantly due to my having a niche market share.
Hey, I wish you the best of luck in your ventures; I hope that you show the same dogged determination in taking care of your customers that you've shown here, and may you never have one you can't fix.....but I'm really afraid that the death knell has sounded for the small guys and the larger independents are not far behind.
And that's pretty much the end of what I got to say.....I expect Dr. Nick with his horse icon momentarily........8>) YMMV!
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12/16/2007 01:36:12 AM · #110 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
That 9 FPS is needed for what exactly? To take pictures fast? To make a movie? The Shutter that produces all that power does nothing more than waste battery power. Sure it's a camera, but it only gets 780 Pictures per battery charge. It's the Humvee of cameras. |
Same question basically, because it can...:) |
No, not the same at all.
You cited the Lexus as an example of a great hybrid car. It's not. For a hybrid, it's extremely wasteful and inefficient. If it got 65 or 70 mpg, then I'd be impressed, but it doesn't do much better, if at all, than a regular gasoline powered non-hybrid.
I don't see how, aside from this being a photography site, a camera relates to the topic at hand.
FYI - it's way beyond rude to alter someone else's quotes to suit your purposes. I just can't tell if you're really that much of an ass or just ignorant on the matter. If the former, at least your true colors are showing. If the latter, consider yourself informed.
Message edited by author 2007-12-16 01:38:59.
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12/16/2007 01:38:55 AM · #111 |
| Gold Five: Stay on target... Stay on target... |
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12/16/2007 01:39:44 AM · #112 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Gold Five: Stay on target... Stay on target... |
Just where do you think you are anyway?
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12/16/2007 01:41:30 AM · #113 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Gold Five: Stay on target... Stay on target... |
Just where do you think you are anyway? |
Judging by the state of the conversation, I think I'm in a Ford dealership somewhere outside of Stockholme. |
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12/16/2007 01:47:05 AM · #114 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Gold Five: Stay on target... Stay on target... |
Just where do you think you are anyway? |
Judging by the state of the conversation, I think I'm in a Ford dealership somewhere outside of Stockholme. |
Give it a few and we'll be halfway back to Schenectady.
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12/16/2007 01:01:29 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Flash is nitpicking and using the article to criticize Gore and his political “brethren” by suggesting they may try to control the sizes of houses in which people live (implying governmental meddling in people's lives). |
I don't think anyone that is criticizing Gore, actually cares about how big peoples houses are, the point is that Gore is raising all this stuff up about Global Warming, and how we need to do stuff about it and then he is going out and buying a 10,000 sq. foot house that is "hurting the environment." Shoot, he can have a 100,000 sq. foot house if he'll stop badgering us about "global warming." But the point here is that he is being extremely hypocritical. Usually people that try and tell people about stuff live it out. I certainly wouldn't want to be in the following of someone who doesn't even support what he tells everybody else to support.
Message edited by author 2007-12-16 13:01:59.
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12/16/2007 09:22:07 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by ryand:
Shoot, he can have a 100,000 sq. foot house if he'll stop badgering us about "global warming." But the point here is that he is being extremely hypocritical. Usually people that try and tell people about stuff live it out. |
Did you read the newspaper article about how his house was upgraded, and is now one of the greenest houses in America? To quote the article: "...a building-industry group has praised the house as one of the nation's most environmentally friendly."
Also, even if he is a hypocrite, what does that matter? He's not the only source on the planet warning you of global warming. One person's hypocrisy does not negate an issue raised by thousands of scientists.
In relation to all this, I find it extremely interesting how a person's political and social views are tied in with their abhorrence of Gore on a personal level, and that sometimes this translates into rejecting the science of global warming. Isn't that irrational? |
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12/16/2007 10:50:03 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by Louis:
In relation to all this, I find it extremely interesting how a person's political and social views are tied in with their abhorrence of Gore on a personal level, and that sometimes this translates into rejecting the science of global warming. Isn't that irrational? |
I don't reject it because he's a loser, i reject it because he is a liar. He lied in his movie and he exaggerates global warming quite extremely, and quite unnecessarily. I honestly think its all just a move by him so he can gain power, which has worked quite well.
Message edited by author 2007-12-16 22:54:29.
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12/17/2007 01:39:22 AM · #118 |
Originally posted by ryand:
Originally posted by Louis:
In relation to all this, I find it extremely interesting how a person's political and social views are tied in with their abhorrence of Gore on a personal level, and that sometimes this translates into rejecting the science of global warming. Isn't that irrational? |
I don't reject it because he's a loser, i reject it because he is a liar. He lied in his movie and he exaggerates global warming quite extremely, and quite unnecessarily. I honestly think its all just a move by him so he can gain power, which has worked quite well. |
Then you must reject almost everyone. There are plenty of other liars telling much bigger lies with much bigger consequences for you to get upset with. Take for example all of the lies fed to the world by the current administration to justify a war that's killed tens of thousands.
No one's going to die if Al Gore gets some attention and people start to actually conserve energy for a change instead of squandering it like there's an endless supply. So, if he exaggerated a bit, so what?
And, of course, I'm sure that you ALWAYS tell the absolute truth, no matter the consequences, right?
Message edited by author 2007-12-17 01:40:27.
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12/17/2007 10:11:23 AM · #119 |
Originally posted by ryand:
I don't reject it because he's a loser, i reject it because he is a liar. He lied in his movie and he exaggerates global warming quite extremely, and quite unnecessarily. I honestly think its all just a move by him so he can gain power, which has worked quite well. |
I'll bet you can't demonstrate one fact that he's lied about. And I'd be surprised if you watched the entire movie. And you didn't really address what difference it makes even if he's the world's most contemptable liar and hypocrite, when thousands of others are saying the same thing, and have said the same thing long before his voice became popular. Is it because of your right-wing religious politics that global warming isn't happening? |
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12/17/2007 10:19:55 AM · #120 |
I don't really want to debate if yall are just going to slam on me, you can slam on my logic all you want, and then I am willing to debate with you, but right now yall are just attacking me, which doesn't really appeal to me.
Message edited by author 2007-12-17 10:20:22.
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12/17/2007 10:24:06 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by ryand:
I don't really want to debate if yall are just going to slam on me, you can slam on my logic all you want, and then I am willing to debate with you, but right now yall are just attacking me, which doesn't really appeal to me. |
Slamming? Howso? You made a point, and it was countered. That is debate. If you wanted to be merely agreed with, you should have made sure you were speaking to like-minded individuals. |
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12/17/2007 10:24:55 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by ryand:
I don't really want to debate if yall are just going to slam on me, you can slam on my logic all you want, and then I am willing to debate with you, but right now yall are just attacking me, which doesn't really appeal to me. |
Slamming? Howso? You made a point, and it was countered. That is debate. If you wanted to be merely agreed with, you should have made sure you were speaking to like-minded individuals. |
By immediately trouncing on him for his 'right-wing religious politics' maybe? |
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12/17/2007 10:26:24 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by ryand:
I don't really want to debate if yall are just going to slam on me, you can slam on my logic all you want, and then I am willing to debate with you, but right now yall are just attacking me, which doesn't really appeal to me. |
Slamming? Howso? You made a point, and it was countered. That is debate. If you wanted to be merely agreed with, you should have made sure you were speaking to like-minded individuals. |
By immediately trouncing on him for his 'right-wing religious politics' maybe? |
Yeah... probably.
edit: but it was an honest question. :P
Message edited by author 2007-12-17 10:27:04. |
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12/17/2007 10:33:22 AM · #124 |
Yes, routerguy had it right, and from spazmo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
And, of course, I'm sure that you ALWAYS tell the absolute truth, no matter the consequences, right? |
Hey i'm up for debating, but i don't really care for personal attacks.
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12/17/2007 10:37:46 AM · #125 |
Originally posted by ryand:
Yes, routerguy had it right, and from spazmo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
And, of course, I'm sure that you ALWAYS tell the absolute truth, no matter the consequences, right? |
Hey i'm up for debating, but i don't really care for personal attacks. |
Ok, so ignore the remark about your personal politics, and answer the rest. (Or don't if you're put off.) |
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