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12/08/2007 01:50:32 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I just want to mention that StrikeSlip chanted "USA" ironically, since he's Canadian with (from what I gather) no special love for the current administration. |
Yes - and in doing so he made the same point far more cleverly and in far fewer words than me ;-)
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12/10/2007 09:40:39 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
I must admit - the response that the OP elicits in me is slight embarrassment. I have a lot of time for Americans and respect for the USA (despite what some people believe). However, I don't find the sentiments posted by the OP very becoming. |
1. Please do not be embarrassed for me.
2. As has been illustrated in the pages of this thread, there exists a real hatred/annimosity/ towards the US. Those of us in the US are bombarded daily with the coverage of how the world dislikes us, our administrations, our policies, our business practices, and so on.
3. Sometimes one needs to remind themselves (and others) of the good we've done. All are sinners. Removing the plank from one's own eye first, can allow for one to truly see more clearly.
4. I really wish I had some snappy comebacks (like those referenced in the original post) to some of the sarcastic crap I read here in rant.
5. As was originally posted, we only ask for enough land to bury our dead, offer our medical ships to those in need, and participated in ending one of this centuries most pressing advancements, along with the Canadians, Aussies, Brits, etc.
6. I am not opposed to criticizing my own Government. I criticize tax and spend liberals every day - regardless of their political affiliation.
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12/10/2007 09:54:58 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Matthew:
I must admit - the response that the OP elicits in me is slight embarrassment. I have a lot of time for Americans and respect for the USA (despite what some people believe). However, I don't find the sentiments posted by the OP very becoming. |
2. As has been illustrated in the pages of this thread, there exists a real hatred/animosity/ towards the US. Those of us in the US are bombarded daily with the coverage of how the world dislikes us, our administrations, our policies, our business practices, and so on.
...
6. I am not opposed to criticizing my own Government. I criticize tax and spend liberals every day - regardless of their political affiliation. |
If you try just a little, it's not hard to see why the US is disliked, but that's a whole 'nother topic. The US is, for now anyway, the richest most powerful nation on earth and, in general, acts arrogantly about it.
You criticize Liberals for their spending habits, but what about the fiscal irresponsibilities carried out by the so-called conservatives who have shown themselves to be anything but when it comes to fiscal responsibility? |
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12/10/2007 09:56:47 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by Flash:
4. I really wish I had some snappy comebacks (like those referenced in the original post) to some of the sarcastic crap I read here in rant. |
The only snappy comeback you need is "if the old powers weren't so busy enslaving a good portion of the world, they would have had the resources to better defend themselves in the first place and would not have to spend time half a century later trying to spin history to the detriment of those who saved their imperialist asses". |
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12/10/2007 11:36:04 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by Flash:
2. As has been illustrated in the pages of this thread, there exists a real hatred/annimosity/ towards the US. Those of us in the US are bombarded daily with the coverage of how the world dislikes us, our administrations, our policies, our business practices, and so on. |
There have been some extraordinarily bad decisions made in the last six years with a huge negative consequence for the rest of the world. Criticism is due. Don't take it personally.
Originally posted by Flash:
3. Sometimes one needs to remind themselves (and others) of the good we've done. |
Great - but don't be blinded as to the validity of the criticisms at the same time.
Originally posted by Flash:
4. I really wish I had some snappy comebacks (like those referenced in the original post) to some of the sarcastic crap I read here in rant. |
Me too - but I also recognise that the ones you presented were made up. There are plenty of really good, genuine comebacks to choose from - I would recommend Oscar Wilde.
Originally posted by Flash:
5. As was originally posted, we only ask for enough land to bury our dead, offer our medical ships to those in need, and participated in ending one of this centuries most pressing advancements, along with the Canadians, Aussies, Brits, etc. |
Really? Not oil, money, influence, vengeance etc? Of course the US acts out of self interest - as do most if not all nation states. It is a staggering naievity to believe that the US or any country acts out of selfless compassion.
Originally posted by Flash:
6. I am not opposed to criticizing my own Government. I criticize tax and spend liberals every day - regardless of their political affiliation. |
Isn't this a bit self contradictory? |
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12/10/2007 12:47:33 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
There have been some extraordinarily bad decisions made in the last six years with a huge negative consequence for the rest of the world. Criticism is due. Don't take it personally. |
Examples?
edit to add, I'm not doubting bad decisions have been made, I'm just curious which ones you think were extraordinarily bad and had huge negative consequences for the rest of the world.
Message edited by author 2007-12-10 13:20:35.
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12/10/2007 01:21:05 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Matthew:
There have been some extraordinarily bad decisions made in the last six years with a huge negative consequence for the rest of the world. Criticism is due. Don't take it personally. |
Examples? |
Iraq and Iran have been the biggest two blunders. I would be amazed if anyone, especially with the benefit of hindsight, would look back on the policies relating to each country and think "job well done". Also, the adoption of policies contrary to basic human rights law such as extraordinary rendition severely undermine the moral authority of the state.
Policies relating to the environment play very badly outside the US: arguing that better environmental controls might harm your competitiveness with other countries might play well at home, but not so well in competitor nations where a more responsible attitude is being taken.
There are a multitude of other irritations: protectionism in relation to certain industries (eg steel), export of flawed anti-fraud requirements (eg SOx), non-reciprocal approach on extradition (eg the NatWest Three)... etc
As I say, don't take it personally - the criticisms are of policies, not citizens. There are plenty of good things too, but you don't need my praise any more than I need your praise (which I don't expect) for all the good that the UK does in the world.
Here is a good quote I came across by Ivan Illich that might help explain what it is like to look from the outside in to the US:
The compulsion to do good is an innate American trait. Only North Americans seem to believe that they always should, may, and actually can choose somebody with whom to share their blessings. Ultimately this attitude leads to bombing people into the acceptance of gifts.
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12/10/2007 01:40:09 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Iraq and Iran have been the biggest two blunders. I would be amazed if anyone, especially with the benefit of hindsight, would look back on the policies relating to each country and think "job well done". |
Time will tell whether or not it was wise to plant a military in the middle of the biggest oil producing region on the planet when the demand for oil is increasing even as its supplies are dwindling.
I'm thinking (hoping) policy planners take more than a 4 year view on their strategies and have more than headline-news length patience in waiting for the desired outcome. |
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12/10/2007 01:48:39 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Originally posted by Matthew:
Iraq and Iran have been the biggest two blunders. I would be amazed if anyone, especially with the benefit of hindsight, would look back on the policies relating to each country and think "job well done". |
Time will tell whether or not it was wise to plant a military in the middle of the biggest oil producing region on the planet when the demand for oil is increasing even as its supplies are dwindling. |
What! Don Rumsfeld (and others) assured us it wasn't about the oil. I guess time will tell whether having government leaders routinely lie to their constituents is a wise idea ... |
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12/10/2007 02:04:29 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Originally posted by Matthew:
Iraq and Iran have been the biggest two blunders. I would be amazed if anyone, especially with the benefit of hindsight, would look back on the policies relating to each country and think "job well done". |
Time will tell whether or not it was wise to plant a military in the middle of the biggest oil producing region on the planet when the demand for oil is increasing even as its supplies are dwindling. |
What! Don Rumsfeld (and others) assured us it wasn't about the oil. I guess time will tell whether having government leaders routinely lie to their constituents is a wise idea ... |
They've been doing it for millenia so I think time has indeed told... |
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12/10/2007 02:06:44 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Time will tell whether or not it was wise to plant a military in the middle of the biggest oil producing region on the planet when the demand for oil is increasing even as its supplies are dwindling.
I'm thinking (hoping) policy planners take more than a 4 year view on their strategies and have more than headline-news length patience in waiting for the desired outcome. |
True. But quite contrary to the stated policies/intentions (not that I am that naieve), and not entirely in keeping with the short termism prevalent in western politics today.
Oh - and given the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives, and the displacement of millions, morally utterly reprehensible.
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12/10/2007 02:51:30 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Time will tell whether or not it was wise to plant a military in the middle of the biggest oil producing region on the planet when the demand for oil is increasing even as its supplies are dwindling.
I'm thinking (hoping) policy planners take more than a 4 year view on their strategies and have more than headline-news length patience in waiting for the desired outcome. |
At least you're admitting what the current US government never would. One of the underpinnings of criticism against military action in the middle east has been to get away from dependence on foreign oil. For that matter, dependence on oil period. However, the Bush administration has done nothing in this regard. Drilling in ANWR would have done very little and would have spoiled one of the few remaining natural wild areas in the world. How many do we have left?
By getting involved militarily in the middle east the Bush administration has destabilized the whole region and this will continue for a long time to come. Now, with the ongoing threats to Iran (despite the latest 2007 National Intelligence Estimate), the Bush administration can potentially pull other countries into this morass, such as China and Russia and create even more instability. A new arms race is unfolding and Bush is no prognosticator regarding a possible world war III, he's an instigator.
Message edited by author 2007-12-11 03:54:44. |
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12/10/2007 03:06:27 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
By getting involved militarily in the middle east the Bush administration has destabilized the whole region and this will continue for a long time to come. |
Saying the region has been destabilized implies that it was stable before. I don't think that's the case. Iraq invaded Kuwait and probably had an eye on Saudi, numerous nations have serious internal issues which always seem to be ready to boil over into revolution (or already did in some cases), then there is the constant conflict between Israel and her neighbor states. A long list of problems that generally involve bloodshed on varying scales.
If anyone set the stage for a middle east focused WW3 it was not the US, it was the former powers who ran the place and left a mess for everyone else to be bothered by. |
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12/10/2007 04:19:12 PM · #89 |
Mathew,
I partially agree and partially disagree on those bad decisions, but it is pointless arguing as neither of us will change our opinion and neither of is right or wrong on these subjective matters.
I am curious how you would rate the US compared to previous nations that have held the same or similar position in the world throughout history? Who are we doing better then, who are we doing worse then?
And just for fun, what are some of the things you think we̢۪ve done right in recent years?
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12/10/2007 04:34:12 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
And just for fun, what are some of the things you think we̢۪ve done right in recent years? |
Fixing the Hubble telescope? |
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12/10/2007 04:34:45 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
If anyone set the stage for a middle east focused WW3 it was not the US, it was the former powers who ran the place and left a mess for everyone else to be bothered by. |
Must be the British and the French.
After all, it was largely due to their efforts that the nation we know as Iraq was cobbled together from bands of warring tribes in 1920.
It's been messed up ever since.
Of course, the US invasion has done nothing but make the situation better and soon the rival factions in Iraq will all be holding hands and singing love songs to each other instead of blowing themselves up and killing each other. Any day now.
Message edited by author 2007-12-10 19:48:30.
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12/10/2007 05:21:28 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Flash:
6. I am not opposed to criticizing my own Government. I criticize tax and spend liberals every day - regardless of their political affiliation. |
I'm curious how you distinguish between those who criticize the government and hate the U.S. and those like yourself who criticize the government and don't hate the U.S.? |
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12/11/2007 07:03:32 AM · #93 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Flash:
6. I am not opposed to criticizing my own Government. I criticize tax and spend liberals every day - regardless of their political affiliation. |
I'm curious how you distinguish between those who criticize the government and hate the U.S. and those like yourself who criticize the government and don't hate the U.S.? |
It is based on balance. In my case, I post "pro" US positions and some "criticisms". For many of the posters here in rant, I only read criticisms. For instance, I do not recall you ever having posted a "Pro" US comment. You may have, but if you have, I missed it. (of course I took a long sebatical from this site and in my absence you may have posted many Pro-US positions.)
It is merely balance. I would expect that anyone having a "love" for their country would eagerly post criticism AND praise - often enough to where a reasonable reader could discern that balance.
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12/11/2007 02:30:58 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Flash:
I'm curious how you distinguish between those who criticize the government and hate the U.S. and those like yourself who criticize the government and don't hate the U.S.? |
It is based on balance. In my case, I post "pro" US positions and some "criticisms". For many of the posters here in rant, I only read criticisms. For instance, I do not recall you ever having posted a "Pro" US comment. You may have, but if you have, I missed it. (of course I took a long sebatical from this site and in my absence you may have posted many Pro-US positions.)
It is merely balance. I would expect that anyone having a "love" for their country would eagerly post criticism AND praise - often enough to where a reasonable reader could discern that balance. |
Well, there are many reasons you might perceive me in particular and others in these forums generally to be overly critical of the U.S. Speaking for myself only, my participation on this website has taken place entirely during the tenure of the Bush administration. I abhor the policies of this administration, and I loathe the principal players, so naturally when participating in threads on current events my comments will tend to be overwhelmingly negative regarding current U.S. foreign and domestic policies. Also, because in my opinion the Bush crew represents the lowest of what this country has to offer politically, culturally, and by way of individual morals and ethics, my comments would tend again to be overwhelmingly negative regarding what might be called the American "ethos" as it is currently manifesting itself.
Or your misunderstanding might be due to a difference in personal style. I think when one is a natural-born skeptic and critic, one tends to look at, for example, the current state of politics, let's say American politics, and say what are we doing wrong and how can we fix it? How can our society better live up to the ideals set out in the Constitution? -- for example. Speaking for myself, I've never gone in for waving the flag for its own sake. That's an empty gesture that doesn't mean anything to me.
In any event, I hope that explanation helps. |
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12/11/2007 02:31:15 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Flash:
6. I am not opposed to criticizing my own Government. I criticize tax and spend liberals every day - regardless of their political affiliation. |
I'm curious how you distinguish between those who criticize the government and hate the U.S. and those like yourself who criticize the government and don't hate the U.S.? |
As an informational aside, I'd like to answer this question, not for the op, but rather if it were directed at the US government. The vast majority of Congress, both democrat and republican, would respond: by "the centers of excellence," of course, established through the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007. (HR 1955)
Overwhelmingly passed in the House and has now moved onto the Senate and is being reviewed by the Senate Judiciary committee. The bill would establish a commission, along with Dept of Homeland Security "centers of excellence," academic researchers based in universities, to study what is considered acceptable and unacceptable forms of dissent. The bill itself does not establish any ideology, or forms of activism or behavior as illegal but could lead to other legislation that would.
You can read more about it HERE.
Or just do a Google search. |
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12/11/2007 02:56:07 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Flash:
I'm curious how you distinguish between those who criticize the government and hate the U.S. and those like yourself who criticize the government and don't hate the U.S.? |
It is based on balance. In my case, I post "pro" US positions and some "criticisms". For many of the posters here in rant, I only read criticisms. For instance, I do not recall you ever having posted a "Pro" US comment. You may have, but if you have, I missed it. (of course I took a long sebatical from this site and in my absence you may have posted many Pro-US positions.)
It is merely balance. I would expect that anyone having a "love" for their country would eagerly post criticism AND praise - often enough to where a reasonable reader could discern that balance. |
Well, there are many reasons you might perceive me in particular and others in these forums generally to be overly critical of the U.S. Speaking for myself only, my participation on this website has taken place entirely during the tenure of the Bush administration. I abhor the policies of this administration, and I loathe the principal players, so naturally when participating in threads on current events my comments will tend to be overwhelmingly negative regarding current U.S. foreign and domestic policies. Also, because in my opinion the Bush crew represents the lowest of what this country has to offer politically, culturally, and by way of individual morals and ethics, my comments would tend again to be overwhelmingly negative regarding what might be called the American "ethos" as it is currently manifesting itself.
Or your misunderstanding might be due to a difference in personal style. I think when one is a natural-born skeptic and critic, one tends to look at, for example, the current state of politics, let's say American politics, and say what are we doing wrong and how can we fix it? How can our society better live up to the ideals set out in the Constitution? -- for example. Speaking for myself, I've never gone in for waving the flag for its own sake. That's an empty gesture that doesn't mean anything to me.
In any event, I hope that explanation helps. |
I accept your explaination.
I have historically not been of the same mindset that I am today. As a product of the 60/70's and the anti-war protest crowd, I have spent many hours criticizing our government, marching against troop deployments, etc. As I have aged, I am not so proud of my past. I have become more patriotic in my beliefs and attending Rolling Thunder in Washington DC the Memorial Day after 9-11, and seeing first hand the VN wall memorial was a truly moving experience. After finding a close friends name on that wall, I vowed to never again speak/act in any way that might be considered detrimental to those who serve in our militaries. I made subsequent trips to DC as a type of pennence, if you will, to make myself whole against my early days.
I fully understand how one can feel strongly about and against one's government. As much as I may dislike some administration policies, I won't participate in the some of the bashing that I read in some rant posts. Been there and done that. Those days are behind me.
For those who were offended by my OP - I can only offer the sentiment that my intention was not to offend. I recognized that the events were likely not true, but if they were, I wish I'd said that.
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12/11/2007 10:47:33 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I have historically not been of the same mindset that I am today. As a product of the 60/70's and the anti-war protest crowd, I have spent many hours criticizing our government, marching against troop deployments, etc. As I have aged, I am not so proud of my past. I have become more patriotic in my beliefs and attending Rolling Thunder in Washington DC the Memorial Day after 9-11, and seeing first hand the VN wall memorial was a truly moving experience. After finding a close friends name on that wall, I vowed to never again speak/act in any way that might be considered detrimental to those who serve in our militaries. I made subsequent trips to DC as a type of pennence, if you will, to make myself whole against my early days.
I fully understand how one can feel strongly about and against one's government. As much as I may dislike some administration policies, I won't participate in the some of the bashing that I read in some rant posts. Been there and done that. Those days are behind me.
For those who were offended by my OP - I can only offer the sentiment that my intention was not to offend. I recognized that the events were likely not true, but if they were, I wish I'd said that. |
Well, we see things quite differently. As I see it, in a democracy the government acts in our (its citizens) names, it should be acting with our consent, and we are responsible for its actions, as well as for the consequences of its policies. Therefore I consider it my civic duty and my personal responsibility to act to stop or prevent my government doing the wrong thing, and to act to bring about the policies I think are right and just, especially in a time of war. You would probably see any such action in a time of war as inappropriate or unpatriotic, and I see your silence as complicity in some truly horrendous crimes. So be it.
As for ranting, or "bashing" as you call it, sometimes one just needs to rant, although it probably is counter-productive most of the time. |
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12/11/2007 11:16:56 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Therefore I consider it my civic duty and my personal responsibility to act to stop or prevent my government doing the wrong thing, and to act to bring about the policies I think are right and just, especially in a time of war. You would probably see any such action in a time of war as inappropriate or unpatriotic, and I see your silence as complicity in some truly horrendous crimes. So be it. |
So having learned that you are completely unable to prevent a government from doing as it damn well pleases, even in a democracy, what's the next step? |
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12/12/2007 08:30:00 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Flash:
I have historically not been of the same mindset that I am today. As a product of the 60/70's and the anti-war protest crowd, I have spent many hours criticizing our government, marching against troop deployments, etc. As I have aged, I am not so proud of my past. I have become more patriotic in my beliefs and attending Rolling Thunder in Washington DC the Memorial Day after 9-11, and seeing first hand the VN wall memorial was a truly moving experience. After finding a close friends name on that wall, I vowed to never again speak/act in any way that might be considered detrimental to those who serve in our militaries. I made subsequent trips to DC as a type of pennence, if you will, to make myself whole against my early days.
I fully understand how one can feel strongly about and against one's government. As much as I may dislike some administration policies, I won't participate in the some of the bashing that I read in some rant posts. Been there and done that. Those days are behind me.
For those who were offended by my OP - I can only offer the sentiment that my intention was not to offend. I recognized that the events were likely not true, but if they were, I wish I'd said that. |
Well, we see things quite differently. As I see it, in a democracy the government acts in our (its citizens) names, it should be acting with our consent, and we are responsible for its actions, as well as for the consequences of its policies. Therefore I consider it my civic duty and my personal responsibility to act to stop or prevent my government doing the wrong thing, and to act to bring about the policies I think are right and just, especially in a time of war. You would probably see any such action in a time of war as inappropriate or unpatriotic, and I see your silence as complicity in some truly horrendous crimes. So be it.
As for ranting, or "bashing" as you call it, sometimes one just needs to rant, although it probably is counter-productive most of the time. |
We do see things differently now, although in my past that was not the case. Regarding war, there is always "arm chair quarterbacking". This is good as it allows for future strategies. I submit to you that much of the arm chair criticism of Viet Nam was that we were too undecided, meaning we had a congress that was not committed to getting the job done. In the present war with Irag/Afganistan, the criticism is that we are too committed. I submit that many more lives were lost in VN due to our hesitancies, thus todays approach is superior to that, imo. I also ask you to consider not the rehtoric but the strategy of having a pressence in Afganistan and Iraq, which according to my geography both border Iran. Iraq also borders Syria, thus by being stationed where we are, we have both a deterent effect and a response ability - if needed. Something we should have been more willing to engage in with Laos.
edit to add; I should have included "Monday morning" along with arm chair.
Message edited by author 2007-12-12 08:31:48.
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12/13/2007 02:05:40 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Here is a good quote I came across by Ivan Illich that might help explain what it is like to look from the outside in to the US:
The compulsion to do good is an innate American trait. Only North Americans seem to believe that they always should, may, and actually can choose somebody with whom to share their blessings. Ultimately this attitude leads to bombing people into the acceptance of gifts. |
Hey now! As a Canadian I take offence to the use of "Only North Americans". Please do not EVER lump Canada in with our American neighbours. I am Canadian and proud of it. With that exception I mostly agree with what Mathew has said.
edit because I decided I really don't want to get involved in this stuff... except to point out that America is not "all North Americans"
Message edited by author 2007-12-13 02:15:21.
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