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11/29/2007 08:11:05 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
When dealing with people who base their entire lives on fervent belief in things unseen, it is not 'crazy' for them to take a strong view about who does or does not belong to their club. |
It IS crazy for them to claim they're Christians in one place and then claim they're not in another. If you can't stick to the same story, you lose all credibility for believing in it. |
Honestly I'd have to wade through all these posts to see for myself, and I'm not about to do that so I'll take your word for it that RonB is doing this. |
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11/29/2007 08:40:38 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
When dealing with people who base their entire lives on fervent belief in things unseen, it is not 'crazy' for them to take a strong view about who does or does not belong to their club. |
Originally posted by scalvert:
It IS crazy for them to claim they're Christians in one place and then claim they're not in another. If you can't stick to the same story, you lose all credibility for believing in it. |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Honestly I'd have to wade through all these posts to see for myself, and I'm not about to do that so I'll take your word for it that RonB is doing this. |
Yeah......I'll back up Shannon on that.
He has a tendency to row with only one oar in the water some days......8>)
I personally am at a complete loss to understand how anyone with any understanding of what is known as THE Holy Trinity could not consider Catholics as Christians.
I realize that most Protestantism doesn't have the whole "Holy Ghost" thing going on; but Catholics absolutely, positively, most assuredly view Jesus as the Son of God.
Can you have this fundamental precept and NOT be Christian??????
Message edited by author 2007-11-29 20:41:48.
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11/29/2007 08:48:20 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
No, actually, I really wanted to know what the US was like. Over the course of this thread I had no idea about the whole Catholic/Christian thing until I read it here. In fact, this thread has already answered my question about which country is more religiously nuts. |
The US, I think, is pretty lax, really, but it depends on where you are. Mostly, I've found that religion is not a topic of polite conversation, right up there with politics.
My father was an atheist, my mother was a methodist, my partner was a Solipsist, then a Satanist, then atheist, and now agnostic (I think), and I'm pagan. My little bro went through a 'Christian' phase and one of my dearer friends is Catholic. It's interesting to see how different it is, yet oddly similar. I grew up in California, and as I recall, it was more acceptable to be agnostic, atheist, or generic Christian than it was to be devoutly anything. In AZ, it's pretty much the same except the religious are sometimes treated like dangerous animals.
Atheism may be a tough gig from time to time, but try debating the legitimacy of religion when the atheists want you to prove Christianity and you happen to be a religious non-Christian. ;)
But I feel for you. The hippy side of me wants to tell you to be open about your beliefs and fight for the acceptance of your fellow and future atheists. The more practical part of me says to keep your head down and not make any sudden movements. Your choice.
Message edited by author 2007-11-29 20:49:36. |
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11/29/2007 09:12:45 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Honestly I'd have to wade through all these posts to see for myself, and I'm not about to do that so I'll take your word for it that RonB is doing this. |
No need. At 01/08/2007 03:51:30 PM here, Ron includes Catholics as Christians-
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Do you acknowledge that you are in a minority in a community largely focussed around the passing on of religious belief by parents, however, and that your choice of religious belief reflects the society around you? |
...you have got to be kidding :-). I live in the U.S. where only 76 percent of Protestants and 64 percent of Catholics ( the two largest "Christian" denominations in the U.S. ) even admit to the existence of God, let alone in the rest of Christian doctrine ( heaven, hell, angels, demons, etc. ) |
And yet in this thread he defends the claim that Catholics aren't Christians:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Louis:
Catholics are Christians. To suggest otherwise is either spectacular ignorance, or a political need to abscond the definition of "Christian", for what ultimate nefarious purpose only time will tell. |
The definition of Christian is: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. Catholicism teaches belief ABOUT Christ and is NOT based on the teachings of Jesus. Jesus never taught that salvation came thru baptism; Jesus never taught that ANY man had spiritual authority over another ( excommunication? ); Jesus never taught that confession was only valid if made to a priest; etc. etc. |
Perhaps the larger point is that Christians can't even agree on what constitutes a Christian! You'd think that the word of an omniscient being who demands faith could at least inspire some low level agreement among the most fervent believers all reading the same basic words. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who understands evolution as fact claiming that Darwin wasn't "really" an evolutionist, yet as soon as you mention any competing view, sex abuse, burning heretics, etc., it turns out that those people aren't "really" Christian. We fought over slavery and women's rights with some people claiming biblical endorsement of their positions, and now it turns out those people weren't "really" Christian. Mark my words- years from now, we'll find out that people who protest gay rights today weren't "really" Christian either. :-/
Message edited by author 2007-11-29 21:25:34. |
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11/29/2007 09:13:38 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
So what you are saying is that if I am a Catholic and I believe in Christ that I may not be a Christian? See and all this time I thought if you believed in Christ you were Christian and I thought Catholics believed in Christ.
Hmmmm... |
He doesn't have a clue. Catholics are Christians. To suggest otherwise is either spectacular ignorance, or a political need to abscond the definition of "Christian", for what ultimate nefarious purpose only time will tell. |
The definition of Christian is: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. Catholicism teaches belief ABOUT Christ and is NOT based on the teachings of Jesus. Jesus never taught that salvation came thru baptism; Jesus never taught that ANY man had spiritual authority over another ( excommunication? ); Jesus never taught that confession was only valid if made to a priest; etc. etc.
I'm sorry, Louis, but it is you who do not have a clue. It's not surprising, because you obviously have no basis for understanding what faith is, and certainly no understanding of what it means to be born again.
On another note, it is getting extremely tiresome having you time and time again denigrate those with whom you disagree by claiming that they are clueless. |
In other words, you claim that unless someone meets your definition of a Christian, they aren't one. Nice that you know the mind of God. |
1) It's not MY definition of Christian - it came directly from the American Heritage Dictionary.
2) I would not presume to know the mind of God. Heck, I can't even begin to know the mind of Louis, let alone God. |
So, you define your faith based on the American Heritage Dictionary?
I thought Christians revered the bible as the word of God and not the dictionary. To each his own, I guess.
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11/29/2007 09:25:32 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I thought Christians revered the bible as the word of God and not the dictionary. To each his own, I guess. |
I believe in this dictionary ... ;-)
Sample:
DICTIONARY, n. A malevolent literary device for cramping the growth
of a language and making it hard and inelastic. This dictionary,
however, is a most useful work. |
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11/29/2007 09:38:40 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Honestly I'd have to wade through all these posts to see for myself, and I'm not about to do that so I'll take your word for it that RonB is doing this. |
No need. At 01/08/2007 03:51:30 PM here, Ron includes Catholics as Christians-
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Do you acknowledge that you are in a minority in a community largely focussed around the passing on of religious belief by parents, however, and that your choice of religious belief reflects the society around you? |
...you have got to be kidding :-). I live in the U.S. where only 76 percent of Protestants and 64 percent of Catholics ( the two largest "Christian" denominations in the U.S. ) even admit to the existence of God, let alone in the rest of Christian doctrine ( heaven, hell, angels, demons, etc. ) |
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He even quoted the word. I think you're going out of your way to find some inconsistency where there isn't one. He can view Catholics and Protestants as "Christian" religions (as opposed to Judaism or Islam) without accepting that those who believe differently than his own denomination are indeed "Christians". I believe I did see him elaborate on what he believes are the insurmountable differences in faith between Catholicism and whatever it is he believes somewhere down below.
It's a subtle difference, but it's certainly not an uncommon mode of thought among the church goers.
Anyway, going on about how religious people can't even agree on the basic tenants of their supposed 'common beliefs' sets a new standard for pointing out the obvious. |
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11/29/2007 11:20:22 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Honestly I'd have to wade through all these posts to see for myself, and I'm not about to do that so I'll take your word for it that RonB is doing this. |
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You would do well to NOT take his word for it.
Originally posted by scalvert:
No need. At 01/08/2007 03:51:30 PM here, Ron includes Catholics as Christians-
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Do you acknowledge that you are in a minority in a community largely focussed around the passing on of religious belief by parents, however, and that your choice of religious belief reflects the society around you? |
...you have got to be kidding :-). I live in the U.S. where only 76 percent of Protestants and 64 percent of Catholics ( the two largest "Christian" denominations in the U.S. ) even admit to the existence of God, let alone in the rest of Christian doctrine ( heaven, hell, angels, demons, etc. ) |
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Please note well that I used the word 'Christian' twice in my response which you quoted from another thread. In the second instance it was NOT, repeat NOT enclosed in quotation marks; in the first instance it WAS so enclosed. Now take note that the use of quotation marks in literary style has ( among others ) the following meaning ( ref Encarta):
"Quotation marks are often used to make a particular word or phrase stand out from the surrounding text, usually to draw attention to it or because the author is using it self-consciously or skeptically: compound words such as "toothbrush" and "red currant";in a more "family-friendly" environment."
In case you didn't grasp the reason why I included the first use of the word 'Christian' in quotation marks. Let me explain - it's because I do not consider either Protestants or Catholics as "Christians" by default - even though they are often given that description.
Originally posted by scalvert:
And yet in this thread he defends the claim that Catholics aren't Christians:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Louis:
Catholics are Christians. To suggest otherwise is either spectacular ignorance, or a political need to abscond the definition of "Christian", for what ultimate nefarious purpose only time will tell. |
The definition of Christian is: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. Catholicism teaches belief ABOUT Christ and is NOT based on the teachings of Jesus. Jesus never taught that salvation came thru baptism; Jesus never taught that ANY man had spiritual authority over another ( excommunication? ); Jesus never taught that confession was only valid if made to a priest; etc. etc. |
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Please note that I did NOT say that Catholics ( members of the Catholic Church ) aren't Christians ( as you claim I did ) - I said only that Catholicism ( the religion ) is not in line with Christ's teaching, which it isn't ( for the reasons I stated, and others ).
Originally posted by scalvert:
Perhaps the larger point is that Christians can't even agree on what constitutes a Christian! |
That's absolutely correct, because the term has been co-opted to include many people and organizations whose teachings are not aligned with Christ's teachings, who obviously, disagree with those Christians who do not share their views.
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11/29/2007 11:30:12 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Let me explain - it's because I do not consider either Protestants or Catholics as "Christians" by default... |
Originally posted by RonB:
Please note that I did NOT say that Catholics ( members of the Catholic Church ) aren't Christians... |
Uhhhh.... right. Clear as mud! Thank you for elucidating that so well.
Message edited by author 2007-11-29 23:30:31. |
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11/29/2007 11:34:39 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
So, you define your faith based on the American Heritage Dictionary?
I thought Christians revered the bible as the word of God and not the dictionary. To each his own, I guess. |
Absolutely not. I DID use the dictionary to provide a commonly accepted definition for the word 'Christian' so that it was clear to all what I meant when using the word in context. I WOULD have used Scripture ( the Word of God ), but the word 'Christian' is never used in the Bible. The nearest meaningful term in Scripture is 'disciple' or 'follower' of Christ, and the dictionary definition of 'Christian' that I quoted has essentially the same meaning. |
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11/29/2007 11:48:19 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
So, you define your faith based on the American Heritage Dictionary?
I thought Christians revered the bible as the word of God and not the dictionary. To each his own, I guess. |
Absolutely not. I DID use the dictionary to provide a commonly accepted definition for the word 'Christian' so that it was clear to all what I meant when using the word in context. I WOULD have used Scripture ( the Word of God ), but the word 'Christian' is never used in the Bible. The nearest meaningful term in Scripture is 'disciple' or 'follower' of Christ, and the dictionary definition of 'Christian' that I quoted has essentially the same meaning. |
If the term "Christian" is not in the bible, then I take it that means "Christianity" is a fabrication of man and not of Christ.
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11/30/2007 12:01:06 AM · #162 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
This is usually the part where he'll come back and claim that by "Christian" he didn't mean Christian. Whatever. It's like battling a cartoon character... just when you think you've got him, the laws of physics or reason no longer apply. *sigh* :-/ |
Originally posted by RonB:
In case you didn't grasp the reason why I included the first use of the word 'Christian' in quotation marks. Let me explain - it's because I do not consider either Protestants or Catholics as "Christians" by default - even though they are often given that description. |
Right on schedule.
Originally posted by RonB:
Please note that I did NOT say that Catholics ( members of the Catholic Church ) aren't Christians ( as you claim I did )... |
Um... look no further than your last post above:
Originally posted by RonB:
I do not consider either Protestants or Catholics as "Christians" by default |
In case that's not clear enough:
Originally posted by RonB:
...it is illogical to hold... that all Catholics are Christians... |
You then go on to explain how some basic tenets of Catholic tradition are totally incompatible with Christianity in your view, thus very clearly implying that anyone practicing Catholicism cannot be true Christians. You even elaborated on that point:
Originally posted by RonB:
The definition of Christian is: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. Catholicism teaches belief ABOUT Christ and is NOT based on the teachings of Jesus. Jesus never taught that salvation came thru baptism; Jesus never taught that ANY man had spiritual authority over another ( excommunication? ); Jesus never taught that confession was only valid if made to a priest; etc. etc. |
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11/30/2007 12:06:04 AM · #163 |
What ever happened to staying on topic? The content in this thread is most decidedly not about "Atheism in Christian societies" yet no warnings have been made about people going off topic at least none I saw. This thread is a joke. The amount of respect on the topic at hand equally so. Although I'm not in the least surprised given how atheists are treated in society.
Message edited by author 2007-11-30 00:07:35.
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11/30/2007 12:07:31 AM · #164 |
| What better way to explain than by example? ;-) |
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11/30/2007 12:10:11 AM · #165 |
Maybe the dictionary wasn't clear so  RonB decided to take both sides, so he'd be half right.
Message edited by author 2007-11-30 00:11:08.
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11/30/2007 09:21:50 AM · #166 |
I believe what Ron B is attempting to say is that just because you are a Catholic or a Protestant doesn't make you a Christian. In fact, he could even be saying that not all Christians are Christians after all. He is, if I'm understanding this correctly, saying that one must actually believe that the Christian Jesus existed and that he was Christ to be a Christian. If they do not believe in the religion, no matter what religion their family brought them up as or what they were taught or what they say they are, (they being the Catholic or Protestant or Christian or whatever in question) they only qualify as such if they actually believe it.
Message edited by author 2007-11-30 09:24:02. |
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11/30/2007 09:50:58 AM · #167 |
Originally posted by MrBradHeisler:
I believe what Ron B is attempting to say is that just because you are a Catholic or a Protestant doesn't make you a Christian. |
I might buy that if it hadn't been posted to defend this:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
This was Catholic, not Christian. |
Hawkeye was very clear in his opinion through multiple posts that Catholicism is not a form of Christianity, and even posted a link equating Catholicism with Paganism.
Originally posted by MrBradHeisler:
He is, if I'm understanding this correctly, saying that one must actually believe that the Christian Jesus existed and that he was Christ to be a Christian. |
Ron also defined a Christian as one who follows the teachings of Jesus and then went out of his way to point out that Catholicism "is NOT based on the teachings of Jesus." Belief alone is apparently not enough. |
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11/30/2007 11:46:07 AM · #168 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by MrBradHeisler:
I believe what Ron B is attempting to say is that just because you are a Catholic or a Protestant doesn't make you a Christian. |
I might buy that if it hadn't been posted to defend this:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
This was Catholic, not Christian. |
Hawkeye was very clear in his opinion through multiple posts that Catholicism is not a form of Christianity, and even posted a link equating Catholicism with Paganism. |
Catholic, the adjective ( Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church ) is not a synonym for Christian, the adjective ( Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus ).
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by MrBradHeisler:
He is, if I'm understanding this correctly, saying that one must actually believe that the Christian Jesus existed and that he was Christ to be a Christian. |
Ron also defined a Christian as one who follows the teachings of Jesus and then went out of his way to point out that Catholicism "is NOT based on the teachings of Jesus." Belief alone is apparently not enough. |
Shannon, Please try to keep separate in your mind that actually BEING a Christian and being CALLED a Christian are different - being one is a reality, being called one is just a label. Calling an orange an 'APPLE' does not actually make it an apple. And calling someone a 'Christian' does not actually make them a Christian. Only God knows whether a person is a Christian in reality. It really doesn't matter what you call them.
Use the term however it suits you. I would prefer that people not co-opt the term Christian to include doctrine that is patently not in line with the teachings of Christ, but obviously, my preferences mean little to those who cannot perceive the differences - or insist that the differences do not matter.
And, fwiw, belief alone IS enough. Scripture says:
""The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." ( Romans 10:8-9 )
It has been said that there won't be any Baptists in Heaven. No Presbyterians, either. Nor Catholics, nor Lutherans, nor Methodists, nor any of the other various denominations. There will only be Christians. The label isn't enough to get anyone in - and if they do get in, the label will no longer have any meaning. |
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11/30/2007 12:07:02 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by RonB:
It has been said that there won't be any Baptists in Heaven. No Presbyterians, either. Nor Catholics, nor Lutherans, nor Methodists, nor any of the other various denominations. There will only be Christians. The label isn't enough to get anyone in - and if they do get in, the label will no longer have any meaning. |
*YAAAAAWN*... talk about co-opted. This has to be the most 'jacked thread in DPC history. |
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11/30/2007 12:39:27 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by RonB:
It has been said that there won't be any Baptists in Heaven. No Presbyterians, either. Nor Catholics, nor Lutherans, nor Methodists, nor any of the other various denominations. There will only be Christians. The label isn't enough to get anyone in - and if they do get in, the label will no longer have any meaning. |
*YAAAAAWN*... talk about co-opted. This has to be the most 'jacked thread in DPC history. |
I believe that the hijack of the thread began with Shannon's post on 11/29/2007 at 11:36:36 AM when he said (in response to HawkeyeLonewolf's assertion that "We Christians have no right to abuse or harass anyone" ):
Originally posted by scalvert:
Riiiiiight. Witch hunts, Inquisitions, Crusades, abortion clinic bombings, sectarian violence, sanctioned slavery, gay rights protests, sexual abuse by priests, mandatory school prayer, right down to more "benign" matters such as disapproval of an offspring's choice of spouse on the basis of religious belief alone... this is spin? |
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11/30/2007 12:43:37 PM · #171 |
| In Heaven, threads always stay on topic. |
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11/30/2007 12:53:39 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by RonB:
I believe that the hijack of the thread began with Shannon's post on 11/29/2007 at 11:36:36 AM when he said (in response to HawkeyeLonewolf's assertion that "We Christians have no right to abuse or harass anyone" ) |
How is listing examples of religious intolerance/bias/abuse a highjack of a thread essentially about tolerance in a predominately religious society? |
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11/30/2007 12:58:32 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Catholic, the adjective ( Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church ) is not a synonym for Christian, the adjective (Professing belief in Jesus as Christ)... And, fwiw, belief alone IS enough. |
So you object to the notion that Catholics believe in Jesus as Christ? I'm pretty sure Catholics would disagree (and that alone is a pretty decent example of intolerance/bias against anyone who doesn't believe exactly as you do).
Message edited by author 2007-11-30 12:59:42. |
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11/30/2007 12:59:05 PM · #174 |
| I'm only complaining because poor jhonan asked a very good question, and this has turned into yet another thread about affirmations of beliefs. I'm guilty of taking it way off topic too. At least his eyes were opened about the general state of affairs. |
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11/30/2007 01:06:50 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
I believe that the hijack of the thread began with Shannon's post on 11/29/2007 at 11:36:36 AM when he said (in response to HawkeyeLonewolf's assertion that "We Christians have no right to abuse or harass anyone" ) |
How is listing examples of religious intolerance/bias/abuse a highjack of a thread essentially about tolerance in a predominately religious society? |
If you had posted the list in an independent posting, and referred to historical intolerance by religious factions in general, it probably would not have resulted in taking the thread off topic. But you didn't. You posted it as a direct rebuttal to a positive statement AGAINST harrassment by HawkeyeLonewolf by Christians, thus tying the list to actions by Christians. As a result, HawkeyeLonewolf was spurred to defend Christianity. And that took the thread off topic. |
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