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11/08/2007 03:29:46 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by hywind:
For all the viewers with reasons for the difference of viewers to votes,saying that voters keep going back to look at the image, what is the reply to the difference at the beginning of the voting, there is no reason to go back at this stage as the viewer has not seen many photos.
Votes: 16
Views: 36
Avg Vote: 6.3750
Comments: 1 |
In a members challenge, some of the discrepancy is views by folks unable to vote, just checking out the entries. (In other words, registered members who can't vote on members challenges.)
Some who enter the challenge, will quickly scroll through the images just to see what the competition has done, saving their voting for when they have more time.
Some people scan the whole pile by paging through before going back to the beginning to vote. Just get a sense of the lay of the land, see?
Lots of times when I am voting I will vote right on through, rapidly, the images I consider "average", giving them 4's and 5's, and skipping over the ones I consider exceptionally good or bad, to which I will return on a second pass.
All these can produce numbers like you have shown.
R.
Message edited by author 2007-11-08 15:30:32.
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11/08/2007 03:38:38 PM · #27 |
When I vote I start at the top of the page left side and vote on every image that comes before me and often do a 75% to 100% vote, I then go back and comment if in the mood on my top selections down to 7, if I give a 3 not very often I give a comment as well.
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11/08/2007 03:42:00 PM · #28 |
Brian, Robert and others are right, there are many reasons why some images get more views than others.
Your originally posted reasoning, that high scoring images somehow are a threat to viewers, and your conclusion that a different way of voting would eliminate this threat, really doesn't make much sense. I really think you're on the wrong track if you think that high scoring images are getting more views because they're a threat to the viewer.
High scoring images get more views simply because they're in general more interesting to look at; they elicit a stronger response by viewers, it's part of what makes them higher scoring.
[he, he, edited spelling]
Message edited by author 2007-11-08 15:50:49. |
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11/08/2007 03:45:19 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by hywind:
Originally posted by timfythetoo:
For me quite often after I vote in a challenge I will look at certain images again. I am the type of voter who, if up at rollover, votes immediately on all of them and then I go back and "rack and stack" giving those images I voted high on at least another view or two each. And then I often give them another view if they are images that I felt stood out enough to show Aimee (as she doesnt vote as much anymore just due to a time factor). So if by some chance I voted high on a ribbon winner I gave them anywhere from 3 to 7 views - if not more. To echo other thoughts, if the vote count (not the view count) was skewed heavily I would wonder, but in a FS of over 500 images, even if the vote count is 20 votes different than other images I would think that this would be a somehwat normal difference.
And odds are I rarely go back to my low voted images unless it was so bad that I needed a laugh. |
Nice type to admit you have a laugh at someone trying just as hard as you, but not as experienced at this point.
And you must have a lot of time on your hands to be able to spend the time you say on voting in a challenge.
It would be interesting to know your select all score as you admit in selecting before rack and stack. Must be all 4's and then you only stack the good ones leaving the others floundering with your early score. |
A personal attack on Tim is not the answer here. Please, do not resort to personal attacks. |
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11/08/2007 03:53:08 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Brian, Robert and others are right, there are many reasons why some images get more views than others.
Your originally posted reasoning, that high scoring images somehow are a thread to viewers, and your conclusion that a different way of voting would eliminate this thread, really doesn't make much sense. I really think you're on the wrong track if you think that high scoring images are getting more views because they're a thread to the viewer.
High scoring images get more views simply because they're in general more interesting to look at; they elicit a stronger response by viewers, it's part of what makes them higher scoring. |
Ursula, I hear every word that has been said in this very interesting view of voting, I was not meaning to show any disrespect to any member or registered user, or DPC not having a level playing field, it is just that the figures seemed to stand out in this challenge or I took more notice after this challenge because the winning photos had poor vote numbers barely 25% considering the number of entries.
PS: I apologize to Tim and any member who has taken it personal. Just trying to express my thoughts.
Message edited by author 2007-11-08 16:01:06.
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11/08/2007 04:03:59 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by hywind:
Originally posted by ursula:
Brian, Robert and others are right, there are many reasons why some images get more views than others.
Your originally posted reasoning, that high scoring images somehow are a thread to viewers, and your conclusion that a different way of voting would eliminate this thread, really doesn't make much sense. I really think you're on the wrong track if you think that high scoring images are getting more views because they're a thread to the viewer.
High scoring images get more views simply because they're in general more interesting to look at; they elicit a stronger response by viewers, it's part of what makes them higher scoring. |
Ursula, I hear every word that has been said in this very interesting view of voting, I was not meaning to show any disrespect to any member or registered user, or DPC not having a level playing field, it is just that the figures seemed to stand out in this challenge or I took more notice after this challenge because the winning photos had poor vote numbers barely 25% considering the number of entries. |
I think I understand what you're saying. Tell me if I hear you correctly, you're saying that because the voting system doesn't require viewers to vote on first pass, fewer votes are cast. You're saying people are viewing the images without voting, and even that maybe some viewers are intimidated to vote on certain images (the "threat" part). Is that more or less it?
I think that your observation that in this particular challenge (and others lately) the number of votes casts is low is correct. However, the conclusion that the images are threatening or that a tweak to the voting system would help here is wrong IMO.
First of all, there are good reason why it is not required that viewers vote at first pass. One that comes to mind immediately is friend voting: if I know who the photographer of an image is, which I do more often than I would probably like, I don't vote on those images as a matter of principle. I have to be able to bypass those images. There are other reasons too. I really don't think that forcing viewer to vote at first pass would be a good idea or help much of anything.
Second, in your original post you make it sound like you're comparing total views to total votes, not total entries to total votes. I think the point you're trying to make is more a comparison of entries to votes than views to votes.
Remember also that this week we had six challenges to vote on, six! That's a lot of images to vote on. That, if anything, probably goes a long way to explain the low numbers for votes received. |
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11/08/2007 04:08:24 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Remember also that this week we had six challenges to vote on, six! That's a lot of images to vote on. That, if anything, probably goes a long way to explain the low numbers for votes received. |
And perhaps gives some weight to the arguement for increasing the voting period for Free Studies to two weeks, or better still the entire following month. |
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11/08/2007 04:10:28 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by hywind:
And you must have a lot of time on your hands to be able to spend the time you say on voting in a challenge.
It would be interesting to know your select all score as you admit in selecting before rack and stack. Must be all 4's and then you only stack the good ones leaving the others floundering with your early score. |
Actually I tend to vote in a similar way to Tim, and I also try to look at ever image in any challenge I vote on in full size - not just thumbnail.
This method may sound complex and long winded to some, but I get confused at people arguing that the voting patterns may not be fair, then when people explain the time and effort they put in to try and ensure the photo's are all put in the correct ordered and levelled against each other , there are complaints on that !!
Personally I think that making one view and one vote on a challenge of hundreds of pictures is madness - you have no idea how good the other shots are going to be, and unless you vote them all in one sitting you may well feel differently about them the next day.
I'm astonished that everyone doesn't carry out a levelling exercise, and indeed go back on the final night to check things still look right.
Am I putting too much effort in here ? Should I be more random ? |
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11/08/2007 04:13:32 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by ursula:
Remember also that this week we had six challenges to vote on, six! That's a lot of images to vote on. That, if anything, probably goes a long way to explain the low numbers for votes received. |
And perhaps gives some weight to the arguement for increasing the voting period for Free Studies to two weeks, or better still the entire following month. |
A whole month, IMHO, would be way too much time. Two weeks is worth considering.
I don't know. I have been finding it harder and harder to get myself to vote lately. In my case, more time really wouldn't make that much of a difference. It's more a matter of figuring out how to get interested in voting again.
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11/08/2007 05:17:41 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by hywind:
Nice type to admit you have a laugh at someone trying just as hard as you, but not as experienced at this point.
And you must have a lot of time on your hands to be able to spend the time you say on voting in a challenge.
It would be interesting to know your select all score as you admit in selecting before rack and stack. Must be all 4's and then you only stack the good ones leaving the others floundering with your early score. |
I was at one point that inexperienced person, and I can look back at my own images and laugh at them wondering what the heck I was thinking. Actually - I don't have to go that far back in my portfolio to do that. I am not laughing at the person - I am laughing at the image.
Next - I am a stay at home dad and I do spend a lot (way too much time) at this site looking at images. I am an addict.
Lastly - you can see my average score given. It is higher than when I first started as I have been trying to be more generous with my votes. I vote from 4-7 as a base vote. Some images get an 8 or 9 off the bat, some get a 2 or 3. But not many on the low side anymore. When I rack and stack I only bump up. I work from my 7-9s primarily. Images I voted 4-6 I tend not to go back into. They didnt have the initial impact to get the 7.
I vote high on the images I like. I look multiple times at the images I like. I vote on every image in a challenge and I feel I vote fair. And if anyone ever wants to know what I voted on their image I will tell them.
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11/09/2007 02:23:40 AM · #36 |
think I understand what you're saying. Tell me if I hear you correctly, you're saying that because the voting system doesn't require viewers to vote on first pass, fewer votes are cast. You're saying people are viewing the images without voting, and even that maybe some viewers are intimidated to vote on certain images (the "threat" part). Is that more or less it?
Yes Ursula, this is the theme of my original thread you have turned it the right way and the meaning also. Is there a positive answer or have all avenues been explored.
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11/09/2007 06:11:13 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by ursula:
... the conclusion that the images are threatening or that a tweak to the voting system would help here is wrong IMO.
... I really don't think that forcing viewer to vote at first pass would be a good idea or help much of anything.
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I agree.
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11/09/2007 07:57:53 AM · #38 |
With all due respect, far more disturbing is the images entered:votes per image ratio. 500+ images, ~120 votes? I'd expect 2:1 at the very, very least. If everyone waits for others to vote, there will be no scores to worry about.
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11/09/2007 09:29:50 AM · #39 |
I was also dissappointed at the number of votes on this challenge I only got 107 (if I remember correctly). My first day score was 6.57 with 30 odd votes and I ended up with 5.9xxx and 107 votes. I do think that a lot of people vote by selecting thumbnails that stand out and clicking on only those and voting not to protect their own images but they vote on pictures that appeal to them based on the thumbnail. I have not entered a lot of challenges since DPL and also find that I havent had time to vote on a lot of challenges even if I havent entered. This past week had a lot of challenges to vote on and this also affected the numbers I am sure. When I vote on a challenge I try really hard to vote on 100%, but that again doesnt always work out. There are so many things that can affect the outcome of each challenge. Maybe, as suggested, two weeks for voting on a FS will help, it is worth thinking about?
Another 2 cents from me FWIW.
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11/09/2007 10:44:33 AM · #40 |
| Normal challenges were split to keep the number of submissions under control. Worked there, it can work here. I'd suggest again to split the free study into 4, one per editing set and make them exclusive. |
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11/09/2007 10:46:20 AM · #41 |
| Where is the justice in the world? My FS scores 6+ and only gets 110 votes, my current Popcorn entry is a very low 5 and already has 142 votes - my average doesn't like this trend |
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11/09/2007 12:21:10 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by david_c:
With all due respect, far more disturbing is the images entered:votes per image ratio. 500+ images, ~120 votes? I'd expect 2:1 at the very, very least. If everyone waits for others to vote, there will be no scores to worry about. |
Originally posted by hywind:
....
Yes Ursula, this is the theme of my original thread you have turned it the right way and the meaning also. Is there a positive answer or have all avenues been explored. |
I agree. It is a disturbing observation. All avenues have not been explored, not by any means. Exactly what would change this, I don't know, at this point I don't think anybody does.
At SC we've been throwing around all sorts of ideas on this. We've been trying to figure out why it's happening, when it started, what to do about it.
As I said before, for myself, I find it more and more difficult to get motivated to vote, and I don't know how to get the "joy of voting" back. In my case it doesn't have anything to do with finding the site or the images intimidating, and I have a fast connection, so voting presentation is not an issue per se. It's simply a loss of joy, and for myself, if there's no joy in it, I have a difficult time doing it. People need to want to vote, I often don't anymore. I wonder if that's happening to many of us.
Maybe as members here we're just getting old. Sometimes I think it's the narcissist in all of us peeking out - we want to get votes, comments, accolades, but giving them is so much more difficult. Sometimes I think it's that the site has grown so big - so many people and personalities to figure into the big picture, so much more room for tension and ugliness, and simply so many pictures to look at, comment on, vote on. I really don't know.
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11/09/2007 12:36:30 PM · #43 |
I also wondered why I scored so high in the beginning. Well over 6.4 and then gradually ended up at 5.8something. My own personal rule is that if I enter, I feel obligated to vote. Perhaps there can be a tracking method to this (if you enter you have to vote). This could allow for penalties and subtractions from your score. On the flip side you could be rewarded with an extra bonus score based on how many votes you cast. Say, .01 points per vote cast to add to your own score???
Surely if 500+ entries were received I expected 500 votes. The powers-that-be need to attempt to correct this, and I realize there are no good solutions, but continuing the way it is seems a bit unfair...I need to get busy and enter another photo...AND VOTE! |
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11/09/2007 01:25:18 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by photom1946:
... My own personal rule is that if I enter, I feel obligated to vote. ... |
And others feel the opposite. This (vote/not vote on challenges entered) has been discussed before. Using the search feature of the site I found a couple of prior discussions.
Here's an opening quote for this thread:
Originally posted by GueDesigns:
"I feel that 1, you cannot vote in a challeng that you have entered, I personally make it a point not to vote in challenges that I have entered due to bias." |
A handful of prior threads discussing mandatory/required voting, etc... (I'm sure there's more).
Voting on large entry challenges
Voting numbers
vote on 1 complete challenge before you can enter
Auto DQ if you don't vote...
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11/09/2007 01:58:50 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by ursula:
At SC we've been throwing around all sorts of ideas on this. We've been trying to figure out why it's happening, when it started, what to do about it.
As I said before, for myself, I find it more and more difficult to get motivated to vote, and I don't know how to get the "joy of voting" back. In my case it doesn't have anything to do with finding the site or the images intimidating, and I have a fast connection, so voting presentation is not an issue per se. It's simply a loss of joy, and for myself, if there's no joy in it, I have a difficult time doing it. People need to want to vote, I often don't anymore. I wonder if that's happening to many of us.
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OK, I have been thinking about this.. we need to make it so you gain something from voting.. how about some kind of `kudos` points based thing.. so if you say, after 1000 votes you beacome a bronze star voter, with an icon shown next to your name in forums, on your pictures etc. 10,000 you become a silver and so on, obviously make each next rank harder to achieve.. I know it sounds kind of gay, but people here like a challenge and we all like a bit of `one-upmanship`. Maybe if you can become a gold voter you start to gain a bit of extra space for your portfolio. Obviously it doesnt have to be just bronze/silver/gold you could have tiered system. Like I said, it no big reward but it would be `something` to work towards, something to wear on ones sleeve, something to be proud of. A small box on the frontpage with "top ten voters of the week/month/year".. just something to show off you contribute a lot.
comments?
Message edited by author 2007-11-09 14:09:37. |
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11/09/2007 02:08:46 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Simms:
OK, I have been thinking about this.. we need to make it so you gain something from voting.. how about some kind of `kudos` points based thing.. so if you say, after 1000 votes you beacome a bronze star voter, with an icon shown next to your name in forums, on your pictures etc. 10,000 you become a silver and so on, obviously make each next rank harder to achieve. ...
comments? |
Sounds like a good idea actually. May want to kick this off in a Website Suggestion thread.
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11/09/2007 02:09:27 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by photom1946:
I also wondered why I scored so high in the beginning. Well over 6.4 and then gradually ended up at 5.8something. My own personal rule is that if I enter, I feel obligated to vote. Perhaps there can be a tracking method to this (if you enter you have to vote). This could allow for penalties and subtractions from your score. On the flip side you could be rewarded with an extra bonus score based on how many votes you cast. Say, .01 points per vote cast to add to your own score???
Surely if 500+ entries were received I expected 500 votes. The powers-that-be need to attempt to correct this, and I realize there are no good solutions, but continuing the way it is seems a bit unfair...I need to get busy and enter another photo...AND VOTE! |
I think that the idea of some sort of rewards for voting is worth considering. Penalties for not voting, IMHO, that wouldn't work. IMO, keeping it positive as much as possible is very important, possitive reinforcement. |
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11/09/2007 02:10:14 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Simms:
OK, I have been thinking about this.. we need to make it so you gain something from voting.. how about some kind of `kudos` points based thing.. so if you say, after 1000 votes you beacome a bronze star voter, with an icon shown next to your name in forums, on your pictures etc. 10,000 you become a silver and so on, obviously make each next rank harder to achieve. ...
comments? |
Sounds like a good idea actually. May want to kick this off in a Website Suggestion thread. |
yes, please do. |
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11/09/2007 02:11:06 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by ursula:
At SC we've been throwing around all sorts of ideas on this. We've been trying to figure out why it's happening, when it started, what to do about it.
As I said before, for myself, I find it more and more difficult to get motivated to vote, and I don't know how to get the "joy of voting" back. In my case it doesn't have anything to do with finding the site or the images intimidating, and I have a fast connection, so voting presentation is not an issue per se. It's simply a loss of joy, and for myself, if there's no joy in it, I have a difficult time doing it. People need to want to vote, I often don't anymore. I wonder if that's happening to many of us.
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OK, I have been thinking about this.. we need to make it so you gain something from voting.. how about some kind of `kudos` points based thing.. so if you say, after 1000 votes you beacome a bronze star voter, with an icon shown next to your name in forums, on your pictures etc. 10,000 you become a silver and so on, obviously make each next rank harder to achieve.. I know it sounds kind of gay, but people here like a challenge and we all like a bit of `one-upmanship`. Maybe if you can become a gold voter you start to gain a bit of extra space for your portfolio. Obviously it doesnt have to be just bronze/silver/gold you could have tiered system. Like I said, it no big reward but it would be `something` to work towards, something to wear on ones sleeve, something to be proud of. A small box on the frontpage with "top ten voters of the week/month/year".. just something to show off you contribute a lot.
comments? |
Love the idea. Competition and rewards all in one. Good one. |
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11/09/2007 03:27:31 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by ursula:
At SC we've been throwing around all sorts of ideas on this. We've been trying to figure out why it's happening, when it started, what to do about it.
As I said before, for myself, I find it more and more difficult to get motivated to vote, and I don't know how to get the "joy of voting" back. In my case it doesn't have anything to do with finding the site or the images intimidating, and I have a fast connection, so voting presentation is not an issue per se. It's simply a loss of joy, and for myself, if there's no joy in it, I have a difficult time doing it. People need to want to vote, I often don't anymore. I wonder if that's happening to many of us.
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OK, I have been thinking about this.. we need to make it so you gain something from voting.. how about some kind of `kudos` points based thing.. so if you say, after 1000 votes you beacome a bronze star voter, with an icon shown next to your name in forums, on your pictures etc. 10,000 you become a silver and so on, obviously make each next rank harder to achieve.. I know it sounds kind of gay, but people here like a challenge and we all like a bit of `one-upmanship`. Maybe if you can become a gold voter you start to gain a bit of extra space for your portfolio. Obviously it doesnt have to be just bronze/silver/gold you could have tiered system. Like I said, it no big reward but it would be `something` to work towards, something to wear on ones sleeve, something to be proud of. A small box on the frontpage with "top ten voters of the week/month/year".. just something to show off you contribute a lot.
comments? |
Love the idea. Competition and rewards all in one. Good one. |
Great this is one way to get the spirit of voting back into the challenge, rather than just enjoy the photographic/processing element.
The joy of going in to vote on photos knowing that your photo is also receiving the same degree of attention will increase this spirit.
For my two cents worth.  Simms Good idea, plus lift the compulsary vote from 20% to 50% this will improve the number of votes to views, this is not a difficult ask we do have seven days to do this 7.1% each day if you don't have the immediate time to complete in a sitting.
Message edited by author 2007-11-09 15:33:00.
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