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10/30/2007 02:31:57 PM · #201 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Can anyone please give rational thought as to why I shouldn't be SO worked up about this? No moral / religious propaganda, please - the law IS very clear, and my calling the school tomorrow won't change Federal mandates... |
There are better things to fight against.
Also, look on the bright side, at least you have a new opportunity to talk to your children about your religious or non-religious views and our government.
Let me just add another faggot on the fire: My God can kick your god's butt. |
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10/30/2007 02:34:32 PM · #202 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Science is not evolution and evolution is not science. Science is not creation either. |
Evolution is a scientific theory based upon the available evidence. Creationism is not a scientific theory, makes no predictions and is untestable.
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Science is the repeatable and testable study of the world around us. |
The theory of evolution has withstood 150 years of experiments. Literal six day creationism was shown to be inconsistent with reality by geologists around 200 years ago.
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
The THEORY of Evolution has changed over and over and over has new evidence is unearthed that confounds the previous version. |
The theory of gravity has also been revised over and over based on new evidence. Theories are ALWAYS being refined to conform to the facts. Thatâs how science works. I think you need to look up the definition of the word âtheoryâ as used within the scientific community. Theories are powerful things as they serve as a framework to explain facts. The public often confuses the difference between the meanings of âfactâ, âtheoryâ and âhypothesisâ (as used within the scientific community). A âtheoryâ is not the same as a âguessâ.
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Creation has never changed nor has it needed to as the new evidence always fits right in with the creation model. |
So you believe that moon craters were created by a war between angelic beings and that Africans are black because they bare the curse of Ham a la the founder of the creation âscienceâ movement Henry Morris?
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
On occasion there have been claims that science has disproved evolution, but those claims have always been proven false when objective minds look at the evidence. |
Weâre in agreement here.
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10/30/2007 02:36:20 PM · #203 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
And comments like "I happen to be a Christian" and the contradictory "My position is that there's in fact only the one God, and that different peoples perceive Him in different ways." drive Christians batty to no end!
It is impossible to believe all religions to be equal. Because Christianity is based on Christ who taught that He was the only Way to God. So you can believe Christianity -- or you can believe that all religions BUT Christianity are equal. But to say they are all equal means calling Christ a liar and thus Christianity is false and therefore unless you believe all religions are false, you cannot equate them.
But then that's just logic. |
I never said "all religions are equal"; I said I think they are pretty much all "beautiful".
And your logic is faulty.
Let us assume there is only one God; this is what we believe, as Christians. That being the case, then all peoples who worship a single Deity are worshiping the same God; they just perceive him differently. For example, the Old Testament of the Jews is manifestly the same God the Christians worship; it's just that the Jews consider the Christ to be a prophet, not the Son of God.
To say that the Jews do not worship "the same God as the Christians" is to engage in pure sophistry. The Godhead is the same, the interpretation differs.
I believe the same is true with the Muslims, who also consider the Christ to have been a Holy Man.
For you to say, or imply, that is required of Christians to be intolerant of all who do not accept the Divinity of the Christ is IMO ridiculous, and it is, again IMO, the sort of mind set that leads to so many of the world's problems.
R. |
I never said you said they were equal, I quote you where you implied as much. And then in this reply you implied it again.
Worshipping the same God falls on deaf ears if the ONLY way to God is through Christ, our Mediator. If you don't acknowledge who Christ is, then you cannot worship God the Father. Per Christianity.
And you just said that "All peoples who worship a single deity are worshipping the same God". This is not true in the slightest. And again statements like this while you claim to be a Christian are completely and totally at odds.
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10/30/2007 02:44:55 PM · #204 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
I'm trying to learn to tolerate intolerance :-) Peace out. |
Study a Christian. We tolerate intolerance toward us all the live-long day. |
Really? What you deem as "intolerance" seems more like a reasonable response to your inflammatory statements. I can only imagine your reaction if I disseminated a flyer at school for an atheist party - "it's free, just like the truth!" But the fact is, I wouldn't do it. Why? Because I believe that everyone is entitled to his belief without me trying to push mine on him. I'd be embarrassed to be so arrogant that I believed my beliefs were right where everyone else's were wrong. The real reason you believe Christians "tolerate intolerance" is because sometimes people fight back when they have a faith or agenda pushed on them that they don't want, IMO. |
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10/30/2007 02:47:00 PM · #205 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Can anyone please give rational thought as to why I shouldn't be SO worked up about this? No moral / religious propaganda, please - the law IS very clear, and my calling the school tomorrow won't change Federal mandates... |
There are better things to fight against.
Also, look on the bright side, at least you have a new opportunity to talk to your children about your religious or non-religious views and our government.
Let me just add another faggot on the fire: My God can kick your god's butt. |
(A) True, such as Breast Cancer Awareness & the proposed 'pink' challenge!
(2) Correct, and thank you for providing the kind of advice I sought!
(?) Nu-uh!
Billy
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10/30/2007 02:48:08 PM · #206 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
You clearly don't understand tolerance.
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And you clearly don't understand. |
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10/30/2007 02:49:56 PM · #207 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Science is not evolution and evolution is not science. Science is not creation either. |
Evolution is a scientific theory based upon the available evidence. Creationism is not a scientific theory, makes no predictions and is untestable. |
Evolution is also untestable. As I correctly stated, both are explanations of the evidence. One (Creation) was given before the evidence was found and fits with all scientific testing. The other (Evolution) was made up 150 years ago to explain the evidence and has to change over and over.
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Science is the repeatable and testable study of the world around us. |
The theory of evolution has withstood 150 years of experiments. Literal six day creationism was shown to be inconsistent with reality by geologists around 200 years ago. |
Actually it has not. Evolution has been changed and shoehorned to fit the evidence nearly every day.
Literal six-day creation has never been disproven. Geology has made discoveries that fit creation and then guesses that exclude it -- but guesses (like Carbon dating) are not evidence.
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
The THEORY of Evolution has changed over and over and over has new evidence is unearthed that confounds the previous version. |
The theory of gravity has also been revised over and over based on new evidence. Theories are ALWAYS being refined to conform to the facts. Thatâs how science works. I think you need to look up the definition of the word âtheoryâ as used within the scientific community. Theories are powerful things as they serve as a framework to explain facts. The public often confuses the difference between the meanings of âfactâ, âtheoryâ and âhypothesisâ (as used within the scientific community). A âtheoryâ is not the same as a âguessâ. |
Right and that's fine. BUt what's interesting is that the Creation theory has never had to change. Cool, eh?
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Creation has never changed nor has it needed to as the new evidence always fits right in with the creation model. |
So you believe that moon craters were created by a war between angelic beings and that Africans are black because they bare the curse of Ham a la the founder of the creation âscienceâ movement Henry Morris? |
Nope. And the creation science "movement" has existed since, well, creation.
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
On occasion there have been claims that science has disproved evolution, but those claims have always been proven false when objective minds look at the evidence. |
Weâre in agreement here. |
You get one right!
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10/30/2007 02:52:55 PM · #208 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
And you just said that "All peoples who worship a single deity are worshipping the same God". This is not true in the slightest. And again statements like this while you claim to be a Christian are completely and totally at odds. |
This is bushwah. If there is only one God, then by definition all monotheistic peoples are worshiping the same God. You or I may feel they are not perceiving him accurately, or correctly, but there is still only one God.
And please explain to me how the Jews (of whom Christ was one), who gave us Moses who brought the Word of God down from the mountain, and who gave us the Old Testament in its entirety, are not worshipping the "same God" as we Christians just because they have not accepted the Divinity of Christ.
Stop saying the same thing over and over and answer me that question, please.
R.
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 14:54:22.
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10/30/2007 02:55:19 PM · #209 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Evolution is also untestable. |
no, it's not. it's untestable in our lifetimes, but just because a theory will take a long time to test doesn't make it "untestable."
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10/30/2007 02:57:32 PM · #210 |
::snip::
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
On occasion there have been claims that science has disproved evolution, but those claims have always been proven false when objective minds look at the evidence. |
Weâre in agreement here. |
You get one right! |
...and you are so twisted within your own version of logic, that you don't see what the rest of us do... you just agreed with something that REFUTES your own statements!!!
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10/30/2007 02:58:05 PM · #211 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
I'm trying to learn to tolerate intolerance :-) Peace out. |
Study a Christian. We tolerate intolerance toward us all the live-long day. |
Okay, THIS is the kind of statement that riles me up and gets my goat and all those other things.
Before you dismiss what I am about to say, hear me out.
I am a born-again, Bible thumping, gospel music loving (okay, I prefer contemporary and inspirational more), tee-totalin', Sunday morning AND night and Wednesday night a-going, Christian (not that those make me a "good" Christian, or even a Christian at all, but it is a "lifestyle" for me). If you would like the details of my "conversion," please pm me as it is off topic for this discussion. I will go further to say that I am evangelical, though many would consider me "fundamental" and a member of what is oft called the "religious right." Quite frankly, hawkeyelonewolf, if you and I were to write a "what I believe" essay, they would probably be very similar. I am probably one of the most "Christian" members of this site.
Having said that. (And I am going to be using some Christianese that I suspect hawkeye will understand, so please, remember that context)
Do you know why a lot of non-Christians believe Christians are intolerant? Because they are. They get so wrapped up in the message of Jesus Christ that they forget to love like Jesus Christ. They get so wrapped up in delivering cute little "things" (our Fall festival is FREE, just like the gift of salvation is FREE) that they forget to deliver the love and compassion of Jesus Christ. They are so ready to take up arms and fight for their just cause that they do not model Christ in any form or fashion.
Here in America, Christians have become quite adept at yelling "persecution." American Christians don't have a clue what persecution really is. A worker gets fired because he was "preaching" to the person in the cubicle next to him. He yells, "persecution." No, that was bad stewardship. If he is being paid by Corporation ABC, he better be doing the job ABC told him to do, and he better danged be doing it to the absolute best of his ability. A church says the public school system is "persecuting" them by not letting them in. Frankly, it is probably because so many "christian" organizations run roughshod over established protocols and expectations and do it "their" way regardless of what has been asked. We go to the local mall and hand out tracts but never ask people what they need. We tell people that Jesus loves them, but we don't offer to help shoulder the burden they are bearing (especially if it was their "lifestyle" that caused it).
Are Christians "accepted" in today's mainstream culture. No. Not really. Are we ridiculed and rejected? Yes. It has happened even on this forum many, many times. Guess what? It has been going on for hundreds of years. The message of Christianity is NOT popular, it has never been popular, and it will never be popular.
As far as "study a christian" is concerned. That is a hit and miss scenario if you ask me. I know some devout Christians who are the empitome of bigotry, prejudice, and intolerance. Heck, I'm related to some of them! Unfortunately, because they carry the banner of "christian" they become the representative of the entire body of believers. It just ain't so.
As a Christian in a post modern society, I have to constantly be conscious of my decisions and how they effect those around me. I have learned that while I may not agree with something someone does, and I may even disagree with the underlying philosophy of *why* they do it, I can still show them respect and "love" them.
GeneralE and I agree on NOTHING politically, and scalvert and kirbic and I agree on NOTHING in terms of religion (that I know of). Trust me, we are about as diametrically opposed as any forces can be, I believe. However, there is probably no one on this particular forum that I respect more when it comes to intelligence and logic. The conclusions we have drawn are very much different, but there is still a mutual respect.
Likewise with Rob, (muckpond). Our lifestyles couldn't be more different. Yet, I respect him for many, many reasons. If I needed help with something, I honestly think I could count on him before I could some of my "christian" brothers and sisters.
I use these simply because in working with them on SC, I feel like I 'know' them better than others.
I learned a long time ago that it is not my job to change people and their views (beliefs, lifestyles, whathaveyou). It is my job to love people, respect them, and live my life in such a way that there is no question of my faith. Then, when the time comes that they need someone to turn to, hopefully, I have built with them such a relationshipthat they will trust me to hear their heart and have confidence that I say or do what I say or do out of love.
Do I succeed? Not as much as I would like to. But, it is a constant daily journey with me.
As far as I am concerned, intolerance is pretty rampant on all sides of the belief system.
And as far as this thread is concerned, I sadly think that it all too well illustrates one of the main problems with the church (the followers of Jesus Christ) today. We simply cannot let go of how we think things should be so that we can see the "people" there.
My $0.02, and now I really should go earn my keep.
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10/30/2007 02:59:26 PM · #212 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
The other (Evolution) was made up 150 years ago to explain the evidence and has to change over and over. |
this sounds like every single belief system i've ever heard of. it was "made up" to explain the unexplainable.
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10/30/2007 03:02:40 PM · #213 |
 karmat just single-handedly restored my faith in people. and for that, i truly thank her.
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10/30/2007 03:06:19 PM · #214 |
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10/30/2007 03:09:49 PM · #215 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Very well stated, Karma. |
ditto
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10/30/2007 03:13:01 PM · #216 |
and, for the record, karmat's post above (@ 02:58:05 PM) is precisely what I meant about her WAAAAAAAAAAY back near the beginning of this thread.
Thank you Karma, for so many things. Chief among them is your ability to make statements TO people in a respectful manner, rather than AT them.
Should you and Bernard ever find yourselves in our 'neck of the woods', the door is ALWAYS open to you & your family.
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10/30/2007 03:13:52 PM · #217 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Evolution is also untestable. As I correctly stated, both are explanations of the evidence. One (Creation) was given before the evidence was found and fits with all scientific testing. The other (Evolution) was made up 150 years ago to explain the evidence and has to change over and over. |
You really, really ⦠reeeeally need to look up the definition of theory. Seriously. Evolution is testable and has been tested in the lab and in the field. (If you want to actually study about the theory of evolution, Answers in Genesis is not your friend.)
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Actually it has not. Evolution has been changed and shoehorned to fit the evidence nearly every day. |
Exactly! Thatâs how science works. The theory of gravity is also changed to fit the data. Our theory of the atom has also changed to fit the data. You seem to be thinking it is some great weakness that theories change to fit the facts.
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Literal six-day creation has never been disproven. Geology has made discoveries that fit creation and then guesses that exclude it -- but guesses (like Carbon dating) are not evidence. |
Why would you use carbon dating to gauge the age of the earth?
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
The THEORY of Evolution has changed over and over and over has new evidence is unearthed that confounds the previous version.
Originally posted by milo655321:
The theory of gravity has also been revised over and over based on new evidence. Theories are ALWAYS being refined to conform to the facts. Thatâs how science works. I think you need to look up the definition of the word âtheoryâ as used within the scientific community. Theories are powerful things as they serve as a framework to explain facts. The public often confuses the difference between the meanings of âfactâ, âtheoryâ and âhypothesisâ (as used within the scientific community). A âtheoryâ is not the same as a âguessâ. |
Right and that's fine. BUt what's interesting is that the Creation theory has never had to change. Cool, eh? |
Not really. Since creationism is little more than assertions that âGod did itâ. It doesnât actually explain or answer anything. What is the reason that there is a diversity of life on this planet? âGod wanted it that way.â Why do animals share DNA? âGod designed it that way.â Why did God do that? âItâs a mystery.â
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
On occasion there have been claims that science has disproved evolution, but those claims have always been proven false when objective minds look at the evidence. |
Weâre in agreement here. |
You get one right! |
You need to go back and re-read what you wrote.
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10/30/2007 03:30:14 PM · #218 |
| Karmat's post is beautifully said. That really lightened the bad mood I was getting in reading this thread! |
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10/30/2007 04:16:24 PM · #219 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
karmat just single-handedly restored my faith in people. and for that, i truly thank her. |
And to quote a great movie (Blues Brothers):
(while standing at the entrance to the Triple Rock church watching the service with much dancing and Hallelujah choruses, a heavenly light shines down on Jake and he has an epiphany)
Reverend Cleophus James: DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT?
Elwood: What light?
Reverend Cleophus James: HAVE YOU SEEEEN THE LIGHT?
Jake: YES! YES! JESUS H. CHRIST... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT! |
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10/30/2007 04:40:04 PM · #220 |
| thank you, Karma, for so eloquently saying exactly the things that i felt in my heart and for being such a beacon of faith, hope and charity. your crown will be overflowing with jewels. :) *hug* |
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10/30/2007 04:58:30 PM · #221 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
karmat just single-handedly restored my faith in people. and for that, i truly thank her. |
Same here. |
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10/30/2007 05:14:08 PM · #222 |
Good job, Karma! I suspect I'm not half as "Christian" as you, but for me it means trying to follow th teachings of Jesus Christ, and foremost among those is tolerance. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."
I truly believe Jesus would not have a problem with devout Muslims...
R.
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10/30/2007 05:36:00 PM · #223 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Are Christians "accepted" in today's mainstream culture. No. Not really. Are we ridiculed and rejected? Yes. It has happened even on this forum many, many times. Guess what? It has been going on for hundreds of years. The message of Christianity is NOT popular, it has never been popular, and it will never be popular. |
I agree with all you have said. I am wondering if it is not the message of Christianity but the delivery method. Perhaps if the delivery method were changed, people would listen closer and respect what is being said to them. Notice I didn't use the word preach. I find that when you preach to people, you are often times ignored. However, some folks listen to good advice. If the delivery method were revised, Christianity might gain some respect and a LOT more followers. You might be just the person to change that :) |
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10/30/2007 06:22:40 PM · #224 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Study a Christian. We tolerate intolerance toward us all the live-long day. |
Gee, most of the most intolerant people I've met are Christians if you don't do things their way.
And they're the first ones to pop up and say "You're wrong!" if you don't agree with what they preach.
Yet I can't tell you how many times I've heard Christians contradict themselves in the same discussion......and when they get backed into a corner, they always state, when trying to defend their stance,"It is God's will/way/teachings/whatever.".
All I want from you is for you to be happy and comfortable in your faiths and beliefs,.....and not tell me I'm wrong and deluded, just accept that I have mine.
When I die, if no heaven awaits, and I'm worm food, I'll want it said that I tried to be decent, kind, understanding, and tolerant of my fellow man.....not that I wandered through life stating "All you heathens are wrong.".
Somehow, I don't think any truly good and benevolent God wants us to beat up our fellow man or to decide for anyone who's "Righter".
ETA: From what is coming across from you as dogmatic and unyielding nature, and a general demeanor of superiority about this whole discussion, I'm certainly not seeing me anything I want from your way.
And by that I simply mean that there is absolutely nothing that you have said that appeals to me on any level.
I'm not trying to be mean by that, just honest.
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 18:27:22.
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10/30/2007 06:38:15 PM · #225 |
Just wanted to say that I posted my last post before I read what karmat had to say.
Thank you, karmat, you so cool!.....8>)
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