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10/22/2007 02:34:03 PM · #1 |
Ok, here is what I've been asked to do. There is an artist that is painting a portrait of a family's 3 children. They would like to be posed on the front porch of their house. The man that contacted me would like me to take an unlimited amount of exposures of them, and he would like a disc of all the images. He also would not like me to use the photos in my portfolio, as to not take away from his final painted product. I would have to travel out to the location twice (which is about 45 minutes one way for me.)
What would you think of as a fair price? I would normally charge $75 for the entire session, but since I have to drive out there twice to check the location, is it fair to charge $100?
Any advice? :)
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10/22/2007 02:57:05 PM · #2 |
Considering you'll spend 3 hours in a car and be out there twice, $200 would easily be a fair price. You could charge more, but would risk him finding someone else. Depends on how bad you want the work.
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10/22/2007 03:06:10 PM · #3 |
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10/22/2007 03:50:47 PM · #4 |
Or you could just charge him separate mileage. I think it's about $.45 a mile right now, maybe more. Check IRS.gov for the standard rates.
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10/22/2007 03:53:25 PM · #5 |
$2000 to $4000 and $500/image that he gets on the disk.
OR
Perhaps $125/hour including drive time, proofs on CD, and $150/image for each image he actually gets to use.
OR
25% of what he's getting paid.
Why so much? Why two different prices?
'unlimited number of photos' - a typo or what do you mean by this?
If you can't use the image in your portfolio, then he essentially wants the copyright, or at the very least an exclusive license. This is the highest level of usage - and he wants multiple photos on top of that! And he's using them to make money. Sorry, but that's the highest use of a photo, so it costs the client the most.
The prices...I'd price it commercially as that's what this is.
I work from home and have pretty low overhead and gotta get $75 an hour to break even (shooting time, figuring an hour shooting is an hour editing). I try to charge $90-125/hour, 2 hour minimum, but i'll throw in up to 20 minutes of driving each way.
So to make two trips to shoot for your job here is 4 45 minute rides and 2 hours on-site, or 5 hours. $625.
That gets proofs on CD (or the web)- that may be all he needs, so be careful giving him even that much without getting paid for everything.
So he wants what, exactly? One high res file he can print to work from? To let the family pick the one they want him to paint?
If he's a painter then all he needs is a snapshot really - teh lighting, clothing, background - he can make them up, change them, etc. Why can't he take a snapshot?
What is he getting paid? Most portrait painters I know get a lot more than a photographer does for the one image. But then I know a few photographers that get THOUSANDS for a family portrait (large, framed and on canvas - but isn't that what the painter is doing?)
If he's getting $5000 you need more than $100 - especially since it appears he can't do this without you - your posing, lighting, choice of lens, angle of view, etc, right? Otherwise why would he be so picky about you using the photo in your portfolio? Restricting you from selling it to the family I can certainly see, but not the other.
The highest price is 2 half days of commercial photography, average rate being $1000-1500 for a half day. You can charge less, but with drive, prep, loading and unloading gear, etc, it's a half day invested in each trip.
It's like a $2 blowjob - every guy is willing to pay more, but the hooker is afraid of rejection - so she basically give it away.
How cheaply are you willing to sell your services? What is the photographer afraid of?
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10/22/2007 03:56:04 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Or you could just charge him separate mileage. I think it's about $.45 a mile right now, maybe more. Check IRS.gov for the standard rates. |
That's a COST figure for tax deduction purposes to offset the cost of running, owning and insuring an auto. It doesn't factor in the time value of the driver. A driver can be had for $8 an hour, but a photographer's time is worth $100 an hour or more - so the drive time is time that could be spent making that $100 - it's really bad business to not charge something for the time.
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10/22/2007 03:58:18 PM · #7 |
So, what, in my thread you tell me to shut up and take what I can get, and in this one you tell her to screw him for all he's worth?
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10/22/2007 04:57:17 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
$2000 to $4000 and $500/image that he gets on the disk.
OR
Perhaps $125/hour including drive time, proofs on CD, and $150/image for each image he actually gets to use.
OR
25% of what he's getting paid. |
I don't know what is more funny, the crazy high prices, the per image prices in addition, or thinking you deserve a % of the painter's take!
The $125 is about right though (minus per image prices)
The painter charges based on their talent. Why would you think you deserve a % of that? If he's a crappy painter and charges $40 would you do the job for $10? The painter's rates and profit have no bearing on your price.
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10/22/2007 06:41:34 PM · #9 |
Charge what YOU are worth. You a $2 photographer? I don't think so.
5 hours of MINUMUM WAGE work is $36. And gas is $3/gallon. 3 hours of driving, is what, is 150 miles? At 45/c a mile some the IRS says it costs you $65.
So you COST of time at minimium wage and car useage is over $100.
I bet you've talked to him on the phone...that's time too, and needsd paid for. A CD, the time to copy and burn the CD if you do absolutely nothing else, takes 10 minutes. Whether he picks it up or not you've got a phone call to tell the painter it's ready, and 10 minutes to chat when he picks it up.
Figure to talk to the family to schedule your two visits, perhaps confirm one - more time.
You'll have 7 or 8 hours in this whole deal. Don't know about you, but I dont' want to work for minumum wage. I want to make $40,000 a year at least. Assuming you can actually bill for all 2000 hours in a year (40/wk 50 weeks and vacation) that's $20/hour.
7 hours at $20 is $140. That pays the photographer.
$65 is the COST of the trip.
Gees, you have to pay for the camera, computer, lenses...these things wear out and need upgraded, so $20? A random figure for sure, but a number for the sake of argument.
$225 is your cost FOR THIS JOB. GOt an office, advertising, insurance, etc? Overhead. Mine is $17,000 a year. Over 2000 hours that's $8.50 an hour, so $70 more for that.
$295.
Then you have the image itself - a print, a hi=res file, what? Useage, copyright, license fees. And the painter is going to make money off this image- apparently he's going to COPY your photograph, and make MORE THAN YOU DO.
$100 is way cheap IMO. $200 is more like it.
$495.
Why can't you, and others, realize that photography has value - your work has value - and you need to charge what it's worth, what you're worth.
Will people pay $4 for a cup of coffee? Yep, every damned day. Hell, starbucks has a line most of time I go there.
Will people pay $45,000 for a pick up truck? Yes, every day.
Will people pay $35 for one 8x10 print? Yep, every damned day. But only if you ask for it.
Just because YOU won't pay that much has nothing to do with it.
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10/22/2007 06:53:51 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
So, what, in my thread you tell me to shut up and take what I can get, and in this one you tell her to screw him for all he's worth? |
I never said anything about price in your book thread. I simply explained licensing and copyright.
I have no idea what a book cover is worth. I'd imagine it varies quite a bit. Is it a custom image made to order of a famous person taken by a famous photog just for that book or a stock image that can be sold 100 times?
It's one thing to have a stock image you can sell over and over versus something made to order just for a client that can never be used again.
I had a photo used in a national magazine. They have a column inch rate they pay, and that's that. Take it or leave it. I got $30. A cover pays more - for one it's larger! Would I have preferred $200? Yes, but I had no choice.
The buyer wants to spend as little as possible. The seller wants to collect as much as possible. It's called capitalism.
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10/22/2007 07:01:32 PM · #11 |
If I told your boss to give you a raise would you be mad at me?
Then why are you mad when I tell you to charge more for your photography? I'm not going to call your customer and offer to undercut you - really i'm not!
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I don't know what is more funny, the crazy high prices, the per image prices in addition, or thinking you deserve a % of the painter's take!
The $125 is about right though (minus per image prices)
The painter charges based on their talent. Why would you think you deserve a % of that? If he's a crappy painter and charges $40 would you do the job for $10? The painter's rates and profit have no bearing on your price. |
Crazy high prices? Dude, google some photogs and ask what they'd charge for this.
I know photogs that get $4000 for a day's work plus the images. to me it's not crazy. That's where I get my numbers. Where do you get yours?
I do mostly weddings, and talk to the DJs a lot. IMO, they all do the same thing - play music for 5 hours and make a few announcements. I know one gut that'll do it for $400. I know another that charges $2400. Yes, two thousand four hundred dollars. And he's booked 40+ dates a year IN THE SAME MARKET!
What's the difference? The guy that gets $2400 asks for $2400. The guy that gets $400 only asks for $400.
IMO, the $400 guy is more fun at a wedding!
If a painter charges based on talent, should a photographer charge based on their talent? If you think magenmarie should charge $125 and I think $500 I guess I have a higher opinion of her talent than you, huh?
If I told your boss to give you a raise would everyone be as pissed off at me as when I tell you to charge more for your photograph
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10/22/2007 07:21:31 PM · #12 |
Let's look at it this way. The painting is the final product. In theory, since he is painting the scene, even the simplest of snap shots could serve his purpose. And since the family is buying a painting, the photos are probably going to be of little use to you (as it is unlikely they would buy them).
Now, what is fair prices? Well, that depends on what you are willing to work for and what he is willing to pay.
We can sit here and argue prices for days, but in the end it's down to two people's opinions. Myself, I'd likely say $75-100/hour, including drive time and preparation with a 2 hour minimum, which end up not being bad for me, since it would need no PP. If he didn't like that offer, well, there are tons of other photogs in the area. But, it's not me and he's not my client, so take that for what it is worth.
BTW, if someone doesn't want to pay you what you think you're worth, why lower the price? Would you work for McDonald's if they offered your $3 an hour? If you make an offer and are refused, move on.
Message edited by author 2007-10-22 19:33:20.
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10/22/2007 08:56:57 PM · #13 |
Are some photo jobs worth $4,000 or $10,000 or more? Of course. Is taking a few snap shots of a family for a painter worth $300, probably not. If you are a $4,000/shoot photographer you would not even consider this job. Since the OP said they normaly charge $75 and think they may charge $100, suggesting $2000-$4000 plus $500 per image is truly insane.
Obviously you have to charge what you are worth, but you don't pick what you are worth, your customers do. Yeah you can put a big price tag on your service and you will get a few customers here and there, but if people don't think you are worth it, you won't last. Thus, don't overprice yourself out of a job. You have to set your price at a point where your customers feel they got what they paid for and will be happy to steer their family and friends your way. |
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10/22/2007 09:10:55 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Obviously you have to charge what you are worth, but you don't pick what you are worth, your customers do. Yeah you can put a big price tag on your service and you will get a few customers here and there, but if people don't think you are worth it, you won't last. |
I sorta agree, although some charge much more than they are worth and somehow get it on a regular basis. I think they have to have a lot of talk to go with the little skill though.
Message edited by author 2007-10-22 21:23:09.
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10/22/2007 09:18:27 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Now, what is fair prices? Well, that depends on what you are willing to work for and what he is willing to pay. |
I know Leroy was not the only one to say it, but this sums it up. If you ask for $10k and they agree, $10k is a fair price. If you ask for $10 and they agree, $10 is a fair price.
I may not agree with all the numbers Prof_Fate has put out, but I tend to agree with his attitude about pricing. I also understand LoudDog's issue of pricing yourself out of a job, but I have learned that, ironically, it takes equal or less effort to land the same job at triple the price. It seems counterintuitive, but it has been true. I have raised my prices and set my bars exponentially higher year over year and end up with better clients and more money for essentially delivering the same thing I did in the beginning.
While I like to think I had to go through the years of doing so much for so little, I have learned that confidence in one's abilities and sheer boldness can substitute for the years of "establishing your business and reputation" in order to command higher fees.
The KEY thing I have learned is - what is it worth to ME. It's up to the client to decide if the answer matches their answer to the same question.
My two cents DOLLARS! :) |
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10/22/2007 09:22:04 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
The KEY thing I have learned is - what is it worth to ME. It's up to the client to decide if the answer matches their answer to the same question.
My two cents DOLLARS! :) |
That's exactly how a self-employed person gets a raise :-)
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10/22/2007 09:34:27 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Now, what is fair prices? Well, that depends on what you are willing to work for and what he is willing to pay. |
I know Leroy was not the only one to say it, but this sums it up. If you ask for $10k and they agree, $10k is a fair price. If you ask for $10 and they agree, $10 is a fair price.
I may not agree with all the numbers Prof_Fate has put out, but I tend to agree with his attitude about pricing. I also understand LoudDog's issue of pricing yourself out of a job, but I have learned that, ironically, it takes equal or less effort to land the same job at triple the price. It seems counterintuitive, but it has been true. I have raised my prices and set my bars exponentially higher year over year and end up with better clients and more money for essentially delivering the same thing I did in the beginning.
While I like to think I had to go through the years of doing so much for so little, I have learned that confidence in one's abilities and sheer boldness can substitute for the years of "establishing your business and reputation" in order to command higher fees.
The KEY thing I have learned is - what is it worth to ME. It's up to the client to decide if the answer matches their answer to the same question.
My two cents DOLLARS! :) |
Agreed. My point, at the end of the day your customer has to be happy with what they paid. Even at your new high rates, you wouldn't do to well if your customers consistently felt ripped off. Figuring out what you are worth is a science. |
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10/22/2007 10:06:52 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Agreed. My point, at the end of the day your customer has to be happy with what they paid. Even at your new high rates, you wouldn't do to well if your customers consistently felt ripped off. |
Tis true.
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10/22/2007 11:06:51 PM · #19 |
Studies have shown that car buyers that pay full price are happier than those that negotiate to the last dime.
Why? Could be the cheapskates feel they are always getting taken advantage no matter what the price, or perhaps when buyers pay full price they get special treatment (more car washes, coffee, oil changes, greetings from their salesman).
I would be if you surveyed the customers leaving a McDonalds and say, a TGI Firdays the friday customers are more satisfied. (and not just because they got some alcohol). They paid 3 to 4 times the price of a meal at mcdonalds, so it's NOT the money. They got just as much (as in too much) fat and calories at as mcdonalds.
Try car buyers - honda and toyota customers are happier than chevy and ford buyers - the imports cost more and offer fewer options on average. IME both are built equally well these days.
Are walmart shoppers any happier than 7-11 shoppers than pay twice as much for the same exact food?
Perhaps those that HAVE to buy cheap are never happy cause they wanted to buy better to begin with.
Remember - photography is a luxury item - no one needs it. Luxury items by definition are not cheap.
____________________________________________________--
Fotoman - the porn chics are in europe and russia and the beef is imported (really, a lot is). To buy something american made these days you buy a politician LOL
Message edited by author 2007-10-22 23:08:19.
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10/22/2007 11:13:41 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
____________________________________________________--
Fotoman - the porn chics are in europe and russia and the beef is imported (really, a lot is). To buy something american made these days you buy a politician LOL |
Tooo true :-D
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10/22/2007 11:36:33 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Remember - photography is a luxury item - no one needs it. Luxury items by definition are not cheap. |
I like that. It's very true. ;)
Thanks for the advice, and the many points that have been touched on. You've all been very helpful. I picked a price, above what I would usually pick, because I feel I am worth it. So thank you for that, everyone. :)
Magen
**Edited for grammar
Message edited by author 2007-10-22 23:36:57.
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10/22/2007 11:39:34 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by magenmarie:
**Edited for grammar |
What's she got to do with it? ;-) ba dum bump..
Glad to hear ya aren't ripping yourself off.
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10/23/2007 12:05:58 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by magenmarie:
**Edited for grammar |
What's she got to do with it? ;-) ba dum bump..
Glad to hear ya aren't ripping yourself off. |
Thank you my favorite fotoman!!! :)
I don't know if I'll hear back from the guy, but at least I know that if he does agree, that I'm getting what I deserve.
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10/23/2007 12:24:34 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by magenmarie:
Thank you my favorite fotoman!!! :)
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*Blush!*
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10/23/2007 12:30:21 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by magenmarie:
Ok, here is what I've been asked to do. There is an artist that is painting a portrait of a family's 3 children. They would like to be posed on the front porch of their house. The man that contacted me would like me to take an unlimited amount of exposures of them, and he would like a disc of all the images. He also would not like me to use the photos in my portfolio, as to not take away from his final painted product. I would have to travel out to the location twice (which is about 45 minutes one way for me.)
What would you think of as a fair price? I would normally charge $75 for the entire session, but since I have to drive out there twice to check the location, is it fair to charge $100?
Any advice? :) |
I've got to ask, "is this guy a portrait artist as in from a blank canvas? There is the possibility that he wants the hirez shots in order to Photoshop one, print it to canvas and then hand paint (with real paints) over it. It is becoming increasingly commom. That may expain why he wants exclusive rights to the photos, that plus maybe he is a crappy photog so needs someone to do that part for him.
Just a thought.
Message edited by author 2007-10-23 00:31:32. |
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