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Showing posts 76 - 100 of 142, (reverse)
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 10/20/2007 08:50:14 PM · #76
Originally posted by soup:
so a soft filter effect applied by the cameras' computer is OK.

but a simulated effect applied after download is not OK?

let the camera do some post processing that i am not allowed to do after the shutter is pressed...


no. wrong. an "effect filter" applied at any point in time after the shutter actuation is not permitted by the basic editing rules.

this isn't a matter of being disqualified because she did it with her camera. the point is that a "soft focus" filter is not legal at all (either by camera or computer) for a basic challenge.

Message edited by author 2007-10-20 20:50:24.
 10/20/2007 09:00:16 PM · #77
OK it is all clear now, very simple actually........

Everything is legal pre shuter release, any setting. You just can't do anything 'in camera' after the shutter.

The phrase 'in camera' is where I got confused.

EDIT: THANKS!

Message edited by author 2007-10-20 21:00:29.
 10/20/2007 09:11:30 PM · #78
Originally posted by JeffDay:
OK it is all clear now, very simple actually........

Everything is legal pre shuter release, any setting. You just can't do anything 'in camera' after the shutter.

The phrase 'in camera' is where I got confused.

EDIT: THANKS!


Everything I can think of a DSLR camera does is done after the shutter is pressed. Exposure, focus, processing the image, writing to the memory card, etc. It doesn't matter if it was set before or after. The camera doesn't finalize it until after the shutter is pressed.

Mike
 10/20/2007 09:11:44 PM · #79
Originally posted by soup:
so a soft filter effect applied by the cameras' computer is OK.

but a simulated effect applied after download is not OK?

let the camera do some post processing that i am not allowed to do after the shutter is pressed...

Originally posted by yanko:
Drawing the line at the shutter event makes a lot of sense to me. It is where post processing begins that is what was originally captured by the sensor begins to be altered. Whether that's done by the camera or by you it shouldn't matter.



No that's not what I'm saying. Whether you do it or the camera does it is irrelevant. What is relevant is WHEN the action occurs. If it occurs after the shutter has been clicked it's considered post processing. If you accomplish the same thing before the shutter is clicked it's not post processing. Personally, I could care less how you do it or when you do it but the rules have always restricted things done in post processing and I don't see any other line that one can use to denote when post processing starts than the moment that occurs right after the shutter has been tripped.

Message edited by author 2007-10-20 21:14:46.
 10/20/2007 09:21:12 PM · #80
Originally posted by MikeJ:
Originally posted by JeffDay:
OK it is all clear now, very simple actually........

Everything is legal pre shuter release, any setting. You just can't do anything 'in camera' after the shutter.

The phrase 'in camera' is where I got confused.

EDIT: THANKS!


Everything I can think of a DSLR camera does is done after the shutter is pressed. Exposure, focus, processing the image, writing to the memory card, etc. It doesn't matter if it was set before or after. The camera doesn't finalize it until after the shutter is pressed.

Mike


And you are saying....?
 10/20/2007 10:02:23 PM · #81
Originally posted by MikeJ:
Everything I can think of a DSLR camera does is done after the shutter is pressed...


This really isn't that difficult. Whatever happens after the initial capture is post-processing, whether you do it on a computer or with the camera. Therefore, the DPC rules on editing apply. Things like adjusting sharpness and white balance are legal in Basic (in camera or on the computer), while things like adding a soft glow or merging two files are not legal (in camera or on the computer).

A simple example: some cameras can be set to add a visible datestamp to the image. This is legal (though not usually desirable) because it was there when you pressed the shutter button. If you went in after the capture and added a datestamp with PS, a RAW editor or some fancy in-camera tool, it would NOT be legal because you added text in post-processing.

AFAIK, there is no camera that can add a soft focus effect internally at the time of capture. It would have to be done either with something physical over the lens or as a post-processing edit (and it would make sense for camera companies to keep it that way).

(Edited to fix quote)

Message edited by author 2007-10-20 22:14:56.
 10/20/2007 10:29:33 PM · #82
So, again, was the effect different from the gaussian blur/fade approach which is a legal soft focus effect in basic?
 10/20/2007 11:00:29 PM · #83
Originally posted by routerguy666:
So, again, was the effect different from the gaussian blur/fade approach which is a legal soft focus effect in basic?


Gaussian blur and fade are both OK in Basic, and allowing specific tools for the sake of objectivity will sometimes result in such inconsistencies. It's an issue we've already been discussing.
 10/20/2007 11:04:00 PM · #84
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
So, again, was the effect different from the gaussian blur/fade approach which is a legal soft focus effect in basic?


Gaussian blur and fade are both OK in Basic, and allowing specific tools for the sake of objectivity will sometimes result in such inconsistencies. It's an issue we've already been discussing.


You just answered the question and in this case the resulting DQ should be overturned. If both of the effects are legal in PP which they are according to your own quote, then the DQ is unjust and needs reversed.

MattO
 10/20/2007 11:14:37 PM · #85
Originally posted by MattO:
You just answered the question and in this case the resulting DQ should be overturned. If both of the effects are legal in PP which they are according to your own quote, then the DQ is unjust and needs reversed.


What I posted changes nothing. A standalone soft focus filter is considered an effect, and you can't use an effects filter when post processing in Basic. Some people were DQ'd for doing the same thing in the Soft Focus challenges, and this is no different.
 10/21/2007 12:08:09 AM · #86
They were using this camera?
10/21/2007 12:23:35 AM · #87
Originally posted by srdanz:
They were using this camera?


no, she was using a pentax so all it came with was microsoft paint.

ZING!
 10/21/2007 12:45:04 AM · #88
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by MattO:
You just answered the question and in this case the resulting DQ should be overturned. If both of the effects are legal in PP which they are according to your own quote, then the DQ is unjust and needs reversed.


What I posted changes nothing. A standalone soft focus filter is considered an effect, and you can't use an effects filter when post processing in Basic. Some people were DQ'd for doing the same thing in the Soft Focus challenges, and this is no different.


No, the verbage in those DQ's said that the soft Focus effect selectively edited pixles rather than globally modifying the image. If the effect used was a faded gaussian blur, then what name it is called by is irrelevant and the DQ is unjust as Matt said.
 10/21/2007 12:52:51 AM · #89
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Originally posted by scalvert:
A standalone soft focus filter is considered an effect, and you can't use an effects filter when post processing in Basic. Some people were DQ'd for doing the same thing in the Soft Focus challenges, and this is no different.


No, the verbage in those DQ's said that the soft Focus effect selectively edited pixles rather than globally modifying the image. If the effect used was a faded gaussian blur, then what name it is called by is irrelevant and the DQ is unjust as Matt said.


The DQ verbiage posted for using a soft focus filter (which is exactly what happened here) was, "The use of effects filters (excluding Noise and Gaussian Blur) is not permitted in Basic Editing. Please review the challenge submission rules." The line you quoted was for Picasa's Soft Focus, which is a different tool and apparently selective in nature- "Soft focus leaves one area of the image in focus, and the rest is softly blurred."
 10/21/2007 12:54:44 AM · #90
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Originally posted by scalvert:
A standalone soft focus filter is considered an effect, and you can't use an effects filter when post processing in Basic. Some people were DQ'd for doing the same thing in the Soft Focus challenges, and this is no different.


No, the verbage in those DQ's said that the soft Focus effect selectively edited pixles rather than globally modifying the image. If the effect used was a faded gaussian blur, then what name it is called by is irrelevant and the DQ is unjust as Matt said.


The DQ verbiage posted for using a soft focus filter (which is exactly what happened here) was, "The use of effects filters (excluding Noise and Gaussian Blur) is not permitted in Basic Editing. Please review the challenge submission rules." The line you quoted was for Picasa's Soft Focus, which is a different tool and apparently selective in nature- "Soft focus leaves one area of the image in focus, and the rest is softly blurred."


So the line being drawn here is basically if it's not photoshop then you are going to be DQ'd because a faded gaussian blur by any other name is not a faded gaussian blur. Are you kidding me?
 10/21/2007 01:31:48 AM · #91
Seems simple enough to me, set it before you click or don't do it in camera. I don't see a problem with that at all.
 10/21/2007 01:47:17 AM · #92
Originally posted by Node:
Seems simple enough to me, set it before you click or don't do it in camera. I don't see a problem with that at all.


But you can set this soft focus effect in the Pentax menu before clicking the shutter, and it is applied by the camera to your JPG ΓΆ€” Except the ruling is you can't use this in basic because use of a soft focus filter is not allowed in basic.

So this "rule of thumb" you are expressing here isn't always the case...

R.

Message edited by author 2007-10-21 01:47:42.
 10/21/2007 02:05:33 AM · #93
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by MikeJ:
Originally posted by JeffDay:
OK it is all clear now, very simple actually........

Everything is legal pre shuter release, any setting. You just can't do anything 'in camera' after the shutter.

The phrase 'in camera' is where I got confused.

EDIT: THANKS!


Everything I can think of a DSLR camera does is done after the shutter is pressed. Exposure, focus, processing the image, writing to the memory card, etc. It doesn't matter if it was set before or after. The camera doesn't finalize it until after the shutter is pressed.

Mike


And you are saying....?


What I'm saying is that it sounds like taking a picture is illegal in at least the minimal challenge if you go by no post processing of in-camera functions. Everything the camera does when you press the shutter is post processing.

Mike
 10/21/2007 03:11:53 AM · #94
The point is that everything YOU do with the camera you must do BEFORE pressing the shutter. You're just being difficult now :P :)
 10/21/2007 03:38:41 AM · #95
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Node:
Seems simple enough to me, set it before you click or don't do it in camera. I don't see a problem with that at all.


But you can set this soft focus effect in the Pentax menu before clicking the shutter, and it is applied by the camera to your JPG ΓΆ€” Except the ruling is you can't use this in basic because use of a soft focus filter is not allowed in basic.

So this "rule of thumb" you are expressing here isn't always the case...

R.


Good point, although the way I see it is that it is like attaching an actual hardware lens and taking a photo, either way the photo will come out with the effect, correct?

If it is applied in camera/computer after the shot has been made you have a choice not to apply or apply and in most cases (Not sure in camera) to undo if you don't like it.

If I choose to fit a soft focus hardware filter that would be legal if I choose to select a soft focus digital emulation of a soft focus hardware lens I believe that should also be legal because I can't undo it.

If the rule is not that simple I think it should be, set before shooting is Ok, after it is not.
10/21/2007 05:05:50 AM · #96
Originally posted by Node:

Good point, although the way I see it is that it is like attaching an actual hardware lens and taking a photo, either way the photo will come out with the effect, correct?

If it is applied in camera/computer after the shot has been made you have a choice not to apply or apply and in most cases (Not sure in camera) to undo if you don't like it.

If I choose to fit a soft focus hardware filter that would be legal if I choose to select a soft focus digital emulation of a soft focus hardware lens I believe that should also be legal because I can't undo it.

If the rule is not that simple I think it should be, set before shooting is Ok, after it is not.


I think that's exactly it.
 10/21/2007 10:01:30 AM · #97
Originally posted by BeeCee:
The point is that everything YOU do with the camera you must do BEFORE pressing the shutter. You're just being difficult now :P :)


No, there is a legitimate question that is not being answered here.

If the soft focus effect used by the camera is merely a faded gaussian blur, then what difference does it make if it happens in post-processing via photoshop or the camera itself. The effect is legal. It's application is legal. Which microprocessor applies it after the image is captured hardly seems relevant to the discussion.

Further, what mechanism was used to determine that the effect in puckzz shot was not a basic-legal faded gaussian blur. That it was something else. Or was the DQ decided upon based on 'we don't know what the effect is doing, let's assume it is illegal'.
 10/21/2007 10:35:20 AM · #98
my point is that if a camera has the ability to add effects to an image - only those effects allowed for a given ruleset should be allowed to be used in camera at shutter release. it is silly to allow folks to circumvent the editing rules just because their camera did the editing...

hypothetical: my new-fangled camera allows me to capture a photo with simulated motion blur. should this be a legal entry just because the camera did it?

i understand that in this case the effect was applied after capture, but it just as well could have been set prior to capture, and that's my gripe.

Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by soup:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so a soft filter effect applied by the cameras' computer is OK.

but a simulated effect applied after download is not OK?

let the camera do some post processing that i am not allowed to do after the shutter is pressed...

Originally posted by yanko:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drawing the line at the shutter event makes a lot of sense to me. It is where post processing begins that is what was originally captured by the sensor begins to be altered. Whether that's done by the camera or by you it shouldn't matter.




No that's not what I'm saying. Whether you do it or the camera does it is irrelevant. What is relevant is WHEN the action occurs. If it occurs after the shutter has been clicked it's considered post processing. If you accomplish the same thing before the shutter is clicked it's not post processing. Personally, I could care less how you do it or when you do it but the rules have always restricted things done in post processing and I don't see any other line that one can use to denote when post processing starts than the moment that occurs right after the shutter has been tripped.


Message edited by author 2007-10-21 10:36:55.
 10/21/2007 12:45:04 PM · #99
Maybe it doesnt mention is specifically in the challenge rules, but sometimes just use your common-sense. jeez.
 10/21/2007 01:07:20 PM · #100
Originally posted by routerguy666:
If the soft focus effect used by the camera is merely a faded gaussian blur, then what difference does it make if it happens in post-processing via photoshop or the camera itself. The effect is legal. It's application is legal. Which microprocessor applies it after the image is captured hardly seems relevant to the discussion.


The effect is NOT legal, which has been declared numerous times in this thread and others. We can't very well ban Gausssian Blur or Fade as they have other, legitimate uses. Yes, it's an apparent inconsistency that you can simulate Soft Focus with those tools, but that doesn't mean Soft Focus is a simulation of GB and Fade, and I already said we're working on how to address inconsistencies in the rules. If you want to keep ranting about GB/Fade vs. Soft Focus, there are probably a dozen older threads on the subject where whatever argument you make has already been discussed to death.

The original for this particular image did not have a soft focus effect, so it was definitely applied in editing (not as part of the capture). Even if we we hadn't been told it was applied with the camera, the effect could not be reproduced with GB and Fade (we tried it), so the only legal method to get this result was not used.

[darn typos]

Message edited by author 2007-10-21 13:20:16.
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