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10/03/2007 10:37:54 AM · #1 |
I find many comments to be flip, short and not particularily to the point. When I personally take the time to comment on a shot, I want the photographer to know why I enjoyed the work. I don't give negative comments, who am I to judge interpretation?
Regarding the S-Curve challenge, but not restricted to that one, I wish I could say that I found the comments constructive,[REDACTED] Comments such as it's blury(duh), is it shot through a Chinese restaurant window, not lovin the comp, albiet entertaing statements are of no constructive value.
I realize I'm not the best photog. around, it's not my first calling, but I love the proccess and look to this site for self improvement, hopefully the comments will strive to do so as well. I hope I haven't struck upon a popularity contest here. Thank You;
Very Sincerely
Frank Ertl
Message edited by L2 - Edited -- Calling out a Commenter. |
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10/03/2007 10:48:29 AM · #2 |
Comments are just that, comments. We are not asked or required to give you or anyone else "constructive criticism".....simply comments.
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10/03/2007 10:51:52 AM · #3 |
Oh, and although it may seem like I am picking on you by doing this, I am not, just stating the obvious. You say you did not find the comments constructive. Would you find any of these comments constructive? (all given by you, by the way).
-Indeed.
-Spectacular!
-Great color & shot.
-Art! 9
-Very nice effect.
-My favorite Buda.
-Yummy smooth.
-That's smooth! 7
-Awe shucks smooth!
-Now that's a cover!
-Beautiful capture... pic!
No? I thought not. It seems you are simply looking for positive comments, not negative nor constructive.
Message edited by author 2007-10-03 10:52:06.
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10/03/2007 10:56:28 AM · #4 |
i think the composition comment was very helpful. however you didnt check it as helpful. I dont see how the S-Curve of the horse leads my eyes anywhere. some of the comments you got werent a lot of help, but if you do get a helpful comment take it and use it on your next photo. i usually mark all my comments as helpful, even the ones that are stupid. the only way i dont see them as some type of help is when the majority of the commenters and myself see the image the same way and maybe one person says something completely opposite. Like my entry for Power. Two people didnt see how it was power....maybe they thought the challenge involved electricty...i have no idea. but the rest could see it. i dont see how the other two couldnt see it. so i thought those comments were pretty odd.
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10/03/2007 01:03:04 PM · #5 |
Hi Frank,
Normally here is where I say simply that my feelings are that every comment is helpful, you can draw lots of info from even the shortest of little comments. I'm going to expand a little on that, since we've gone and called out several commenters here publicly.
First of all, your opening statement of your OP, that may be your personal approach to commenting, but it is definitely not the same with everyone. It is the very nature of the site, you post photos, people study them and state their opinions in the form of comments, likes, dislikes, positive, negative, yes, intrepretation sometimes, constructive, advice, whatever. A lot of folks on the site have a goal of learning, improving their own photography. One thing that helps this along is such critiquing of images. To put it bluntly, if all one is after is glowing praise, this is not the place, best to stick to showing those photos to freinds and family, they will stroke the ego no matter what it is.
Now, in your closing statement, you do say that you are looking for self improvement. Well, then you are in the right place! :-) And these are the kind of comments that can help you along the way. It is up to you though, to sort through, and 'organize' and draw out the information that is there. Sure, it is a little work, and it would be nice if every comment was long, and had a little positive to sugar coat the negative, and all that, but hey, it's not a perfect world, and some people are short and direct, that's fine.
Let's take a look at these comments. Keep in mind, that this is an example, and based on what I see, and my opinions.
'Not lovin the comp.' - First off, I always think that every comment is probably 'representative' of more people that shared a similar thought and just didn't comment. This tells me a lot. Basically, the composition is weak to this group of people. Did I use any strong compositional tools? Leading lines, rule of thirds? etc. Is it static, centered? Is it exciting, dynamic? Does the subject stand out? Is it obvious what the subject is? Knowing that the commenter thinks that the comp is weak, I can look at it and think, is there something different/better I could of done to make it stronger?
'I don't like this one because the object in the back is so blurry that it doesn't appear that it should even be in the photo. Secondly, the object in the front looks to be a drawing. So if you take away the object in the front the photo would be a poor one. I might not get it though so sorry for my low score.'- Ok, this is a great comment! Very specific info here. It brings into question choices of focus, dof and even again, the composition. If my main subject is the dragon, than this tells me, that viewers are confused about that due to the way that I have presented the image. Maybe I've included elements that are not supportive of the concept of the image. This gives me lots of food for thought to look at and self critique my shot.
'Wondering where you took this. Through the window of a Chinese restaurant perhaps?'
'not sure i understand. are we looking through a decal on glass?'- these 2 pretty much say the same thing. They are both formed as questions. These people come out and say they are not getting it. So I can ask myself, did I succeed in conveying my idea? Obviously not to at least this group :-) Again, did I compose the shot well, to get the concept across? Do all my included elements work together well to drive the theme? Could I have done things differently? Do I want the viewer to be confused when looking? If not, then I need to work on how I present my image.
'not on topic'- so again, this group is not seeing the S curve. We know that the dragon does have an S curve, so, we have to look at it and think how well did we present that? Is it obvious, or does the viewer have to 'look' a little to see it? Should I have made the subject more prominent? Maybe a different pov or angle could make a difference? Maybe focus choice or dof? Maybe the horse on the glass is over powering and they just didn't notice the dragon? Maybe my choice of subject doesn't 'fit' as well as I thought it did? Or, maybe I just didn't present it strong enough?
'I wish the s-curve was a stronger element in the composition.'- Well, this kind of validates the previous group, right? :-) These folks see it, but think that the presentation could be stronger. Easy to see how the other group could possibly miss it all together. And again, it points in the direction of taking a look at how I chose to compose the shot.
So now you have all this info, and raised questions, and thoughts in your mind. So, you can look at it and say, well those are their opinions, but they're all wrong, I'm right, I'm a genius and I don't care if others can see it or not. Awesome, keep doing what you're doing, keep in mind that you're right, and you don't care and just carry on, no need to complain or call anyone out for it. Ignore the ignorant masses, and go show your stuff to mom and aunt margarette for the occasional ego stroking.
....or, you can gather the info, and use it as a starting basis to take a hard honest look at your own stuff. Consider the choices you make in your image, and think about what can you do differently. Remember that this particular photo is water under the bridge now, but can you apply some of these thoughts, and some of this info to the next shot? Want more specific info? Great, post the pic in a thread, and you have some basis for the questions you wish to ask. For example, instead of just "Why did this shot not score well?", you could ask "How could I have made this composition stronger?" or "The dragon doesn't seem to be prominent enough in this shot, how could I make him stand out more?"
Sorry for being so long-winded, and if I seem to be brutal. I know for me, if I really wish to improve, I need to be brutal and honest with myself, and I need to make it happen, no one is going to spoon feed me :-) With this site, and like everything in life, the benefits are there for the taking, but you definitely need to reach out and take what you want, and make use of those benefits. |
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10/03/2007 01:07:42 PM · #6 |
 taterbug That was one of the best posts I've read on DPC for a very long time. Thank you.
Message edited by author 2007-10-03 13:09:14. |
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10/03/2007 01:10:56 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by salmiakki:
taterbug That was one of the best posts I've read on DPC for a very long time. Thank you. |
Ditto!
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10/03/2007 01:33:09 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by salmiakki:
taterbug That was one of the best posts I've read on DPC for a very long time. Thank you. |
Ditto! |
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10/03/2007 01:50:08 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by salmiakki:
taterbug That was one of the best posts I've read on DPC for a very long time. Thank you. |
Hear hear! Excellent post! |
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10/03/2007 01:55:41 PM · #10 |
One useful asset to bring with you when you publish an image here or anywhere is what I call negative capability. While many reactions to a photo will be kind or just polite, some, I hope, may just be the result of close examination and comparison. The first kind can be as pleasant as it may be useless. The latter, while, perhaps, unsettling to anyone attached to his own work, is immensely useful.
Very few of us have the skill, patience and profound interest it takes to articulate more than a fleeting reaction to an image and, then, find the proper tone to address a tender soul.
Needless to say, a tender soul will always be troubled to acknowledge flaws in what he has made. His ego gets in the way of truth. But in order to imrove and grow, we must see the negative before we can recognize its utility - before can go forward with any sense of direction.
It is all too easy to confuse so-called positive comments with constructive ones. If you have (or are willing to develop) negative capabilities, however, you should be equipped to tell one from the other.
Message edited by author 2007-10-03 13:57:53. |
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10/03/2007 02:12:38 PM · #11 |
| I think taterbughas it covered. I just got a slew of such indicative-of-photographic-shortcomings comments, all valid; only a few found my S, or got it (I think). I am still very fond of my photo and very much want to think I am a genius (who's to say?), but really it was nothing more than a snapshot, requiring of the viewer more than it did of the photographer. These are always somewhat shocking lessons, and if I stick around long enough I may learn from them. |
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10/03/2007 04:18:53 PM · #12 |
I made the "Chinese restaurant window" comment. My comment was not to say I didn't get it, but rather, I was simply curious about how the photo was done. I've given similar comments on other entries as well. I want to know how it was done.
Although the dragon did have an S-curve, I did not see the S-curve used as as a compositional concept to draw my eye through the photo.
My impression of most folks here (as well as my own personal feeling) is that lavish praise is nice, but if one's masterpiece is not doing well, they want to know why. One of my best photo's is only getting a middling performance right now. I've gotten several positive coments on it, but nothing from the folks that have voted low. Some stuff of mine that gets great comments over on a Flickr group only does so-so here. I am accepting that the standards here are much higher, so when I achieve better overall scores, I will know I really am getting better.
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10/03/2007 04:42:29 PM · #13 |
If you say you're looking for self-improvement in your photographic environment then you will find that on DPC, if you're looking for a bunch of people saying that the picture is the best thing in the world, and "how did you do that?" style comments week in/week out, and "my god, this pic iz liek da bom yo", then DPC is not the place.
The people here are honest, sometimes blunt, sometimes seemingly rude but more often than not, they know what they're talking about and I'm grateful if a comment I read at least allows me to look back at the picture, step over my ego and think "oh yeah..." and potentially learn from it. Granted, if it's a personal comment to the point of saying "this sucks" then I don't really care- that's an opinion I can choose to ignore because it holds no constructive weight whatsoever, and believe me, I've had plenty of them :).
Basically, do not take comments personally, they are not an attack on you, and if the person writing you the comment doesn't take the time to justify their remark, then don't take the time getting worked up over it.
Like Phil Anselmo said: You can't please all the people all the time.
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10/03/2007 04:48:46 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Tez:
"my god, this pic iz liek da bom yo" |
...I am soooo using this line next time I comment. |
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10/03/2007 04:52:41 PM · #15 |
To taterbug & all:
I appreciate your comments and they make a lot of sense. I don't have your skill at understanding what people mean on this site, but hopefully, over time I'll get more adept at doing so. I don't find your response harsh at all and I certainly learned a lot from it. In defense, I'm not looking to be spoon fed compliments and believe me, my own lovely wife isn't too shy to tell me when a shot sucks. I guess I just need to get used to the interpretation process. I know the standrads are higher here, the work is certainly the best I've seen anywhere and alas, that's why I joined. I feel good about getting even the mid-range scores in this group and I did say I'm trying to improve my technique.
Karen, those most certainly are my comments. They're short and to the point and when you look at the photos to which those comments were posted, many won top spots; what more can, or should I say than I really loved a shot? I have other comments as well, which you chose not to list and no, you will not find any negative comments, only because I have to far to go before I pass judgement on someone's work and even then, that's not my approach.
Good feedback, all of you and I really do thank you for taking the time to respond. I look forward to spending a lot more time second guessing myself, not to mention my future submissions. Thank you... Really!
Frank |
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10/03/2007 06:51:30 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by taterbug:
'I wish the s-curve was a stronger element in the composition.' |
About 40 of us got this same comment from one person. I got it on mine -- 
Not sure it could be much stronger of an element in the composition, lol! :-}
Maybe a square crop to take out the bird's back and some of the border?
Anyway, my first thought was, "this guy is crazy!" but it does prompt me to consider other ways that I could have presented the composition, so I still take it as constructive criticism once I get past the initial "WTF".
Message edited by author 2007-10-03 18:55:10. |
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10/03/2007 07:05:13 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Creature:
Originally posted by taterbug:
'I wish the s-curve was a stronger element in the composition.' |
About 40 of us got this same comment from one person. I got it on mine -- [Not sure it could be much stronger of an element in the composition, lol! :-}
Maybe a square crop to take out the bird's back and some of the border?
Anyway, my first thought was, "this guy is crazy!" but it does prompt me to consider other ways that I could have presented the composition, so I still take it as constructive criticism once I get past the initial "WTF". |
Ditto! (same comment from the same guy!) My pink S that leads the eye to the flowers seemed obvious to me, but apparently I was wrong - at least one other said it barely fit the challenge.
But then I also had one that said "fantastic crop" while other though that a different crop would have improved it! I thought it should have done better than 5.4. But your should have scored higher also IMO, lol.
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10/03/2007 11:25:12 PM · #18 |
Wow! This is one of the most interesting and informative threads I have read on DPC or anywhere. There are such great ideas and truthfulness poured into the replies. I too love getting comments and lucky for me I generally find the negative comments more useful than the positive ones. However, after reading taterbugs analysis of comments I see that the small mundane, positive comments are telling me something constructive as well.
Thanks guys...
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10/04/2007 12:15:20 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by salmiakki:
taterbug That was one of the best posts I've read on DPC for a very long time. Thank you. |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Ditto! |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Hear hear! Excellent post! |
Actually, it could have used a little tidying up. Maybe if the poster had run the text through a grammar-checker and then chose some alternative phrasing from an online thesaurus. At least he has shown creativity and managed to capture a feeling. I give it a reserved 6. |
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10/04/2007 05:23:29 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by actnout:
I find many comments to be flip, short and not particularily to the point. |
This burned my ears. :) Sorry - I've asked several times for the admins to add the following to the comments area:
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10/04/2007 06:30:32 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by salmiakki:
taterbug That was one of the best posts I've read on DPC for a very long time. Thank you. |
Nailed it!
And man did I learn alot as well! TYVM taterbug.
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10/04/2007 11:45:25 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by actnout:
I find many comments to be flip, short and not particularily to the point. |
This burned my ears. :) Sorry - I've asked several times for the admins to add the following to the comments area:
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LOL, love it! |
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