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09/04/2003 03:56:56 AM · #1 |
| I thought that this one should have recieved a ribbon. What happened? |
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09/04/2003 05:31:52 AM · #2 |
Wow, wow, wow... This is a fantastic shot... Perhaps, it hadn´t win a ribbon, because in my opinion the main subject is the girl, not the tool. So, I suppose people thinks that it didn´t meet the challenge
100%. But, for me it´s brilliant, but it´s just an opinion.
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09/04/2003 06:12:20 AM · #3 |
Very nice shot.
Ribbon or not ribbon, it is really weird that:
1 - it ended up 80 of 256
2 - it did get 4 1s, 13 2s and 16 3s which are "impossible" votes for this kind of pic and they certainly contribute heavily to the average. I can understand differences in taste but, even if you do not like the pic or you think that it is slightly off topic because of the girl's presence (there is a big tool too..), I still cannot see how it is possible to rate this pic less than 4: NO WAY.
3 - there is a very sensible difference between the average of users with a camera (5.486) and the users with no camera (4.333). NO doubt that the largest (how large?) set of trolls hide in the second category.
faidoi, you did well to point this out.
I believe that DPC should do something to avoid these things happening.
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09/04/2003 06:18:54 AM · #4 |
I´m agree with you Antonio, it´s not possible to give 1, 2, 3 or 4 to this picture. It´s brilliant.
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09/04/2003 06:26:29 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by a_berenguer:
I´m agree with you Antonio, it´s not possible to give 1, 2, 3 or 4 to this picture. It´s brilliant. |
I would have given it an 8 (I will start voting again once back from holiday).
I could understand a 4 if somebody, for some weird reason, really dislike the subject.
But whatever less than that it is very likely to be trolls-voting which means that there were at least 4+13+16 = 33 trolls influencing that session of voting.
That is simply too much and very much damaging the competition.
This was my point and, also, what should (somehow) be avoided.
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09/04/2003 06:34:22 AM · #6 |
Perhaps, you are right. But we have to think, that there are that they don´t think as us. I don´t how to translate a spanish quote, that say more or less: "To taste the colours". It means that there are a lot of colours and there are a lot of tastes, too.
I hope you can understand what I want to say you... My english is horrible, this is remembering me I have to study english... Arrrghhh...
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09/04/2003 06:40:00 AM · #7 |
Yes, you are perfectly right.
Romans used to say "De Gustibus non disputandum est" which basically means something like: it does not make any sense to make a discussion about taste.
However, I see it as unavoidable that if the taste of many comes out as different as the taste of few, sooner or later, the few will migrate elsewhere.
It is up to DPC to choose if big numbers are more or less important than quality.
In fact, if taste cannot be discussed, quality can be verified.
Message edited by author 2003-09-04 06:40:35.
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09/04/2003 06:44:47 AM · #8 |
You are right, we have to protect all the works with quality, but I don´t know how we can do it...
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09/04/2003 06:53:05 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by a_berenguer:
You are right, we have to protect all the works with quality, but I don´t know how we can do it... |
DPC has been very inspirative to me in many different ways. It is a great site.
I have been thinking a little about this (how to protect the quality) and I think that two steps would really help.
1 - Identity checks, to avoid having fake users (the perfect mask for trolls)
2 - A smarter, less aggressive, rating system. Not a vote from 1 to 10 but something like a special number of "stars" (let's say, for instance, six stars) that every user can assign to the pictures which he/she likes more. The ribbon winners, then, would be the one receiving more points/stars avoiding to have humiliating votes or averages.
In fact, the fact that a shot does not receive many stars does not necessarily means that it was ugly but just that there was some better shot. A slightly, but not so slightly, difference in the spirit of chosing the best pic out from a set....
I will try to implement something like that myself, sooner or later. ;)
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09/04/2003 07:00:31 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
The ribbon winners, then, would be the one receiving more points/stars avoiding to have humiliating votes or averages. |
I'm afraid your idea has two flaws:
If the voting population is the same for every picture, an average is technically identical to a simple count of score.
If the voting population is different for every picture (which is likely), your idea gives unfair advantage to those pictures looked at more than others.
IMHO, the voting system now works well - with a very simple statistical model good photos generally rise to the top. A 'good photo' being one that generally appeals to the DPC masses. |
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09/04/2003 07:11:58 AM · #11 |
Your critics to my suggestion of a different rating system are very interesting and I will evalute them carefully.
However, you should not split that system from the first point of my suggestion (checking identity) because IMO the actual weight of a site like this is given by the actual "weight" of its users.
The "right of vote" cannot and should not be given out to everybody in equal measure without a check on identity and even on its understanding of photography.
These, of course, if DPC is for photographers. If, as you stated, DPC is for masses, I agree with you that the current system may well be better than the one I suggested.
Actually, this distinction is even more stimulative because I think that two (or more) websites, one oriented to masses and another oriented to photographers (and maybe another oriented to digital artists) may well live along side each other and even grow and improve together.
If you ask myself: is DPC for masses or photographers, I honestly cannot answer because I do not know the answer yet. I can see that there are masses and there are photographers at the same time.
My idea is that the same system cannot suit both in the same way.
I also find that is very interesting to discuss about these matters.
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09/04/2003 07:25:48 AM · #12 |
WOW! I'm flattered that you pointed out my photo! :oD
I know that humour is very subjective and that's why I try to compensate with an all-round quality photo.
I'm glad my photo brought on this thread.
Not to worry though..... I haven't given up on getting a second (excluding my green) ribbon! :o)
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09/04/2003 08:02:10 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by a_berenguer:
You are right, we have to protect all the works with quality, but I don´t know how we can do it... |
I disagree. I voted this image a 7. I thought it well composed, well lit and creative. Having said that, no matter whether I think any photo should be a 1 or a 10 no one should protect art. An artistic expression should stand on its own merit with no protection except from state-sanctioned persecution. If I produce art then the expression and product of that expression are both larger and more important to whatever community I belong than I am (in an artistic sense although I wouldn't suggest shooting an artist and keeping her art as a viable option).
Artistic expressions should only be protected if a group of people try to keep it from being available to someone. If a gang of trolls decides to "invade" DPC and vote down every other piece of art except what they produce then perhaps the admins should look into it. More than likely I'm gonna say that nothing should be done as the purpose of DPC doesn't appear to be "to win ribbons" but to express art in a community of responsible artists who contribute praise and critiques for each other's betterment. To this end, who cares if you came in last place? Did you get some good critiques and do you value the members that evaluated your work of art as a work of art and not just something to be voted down? Artists need to accept that many people may actually "get" their art and just not like it or perhaps the viewer is dealing with "demons" of his/her own and choosing to take our their own frustrations or feelings by using DPC to lower the score of someone else's art. The main goal for any artist should be to express. Not to be congratulated or celebrated. Let the trolls toss out the 1's and 2's and 3's and laugh in their faces as your skills belie their negative attitudes and your artistic eye expands to reveal horizons that others fail to see. So you averaged a 4 or 5 on a challenge. Name another venue where you can get this kind of interaction (virtual or real world). Name another place where you know people from around the world who will give of their time to supply feedback on your artistic attempts. jmsmetzler, jacko, magnetic9999, gordon, kimbly, karenb, etc. You may not know these people if you pass them on the street but you certainly know their art and you know how to evaluate their critiques of what you submit. This is a valuable community and it should not ever attempt to protect an artist or the art she produces from critical reviews even if its just a bunch of trolls taking potshots at someone else's work. Those trolls are outweighed in my mind by the fact that on any challenge, some of you people whose opinions and artwork I value will critique what I've submitted and tell me what you like and what you don't. When Kollin and David Sidwell both comment on a submission I've made and they make contrasting statements about the photo, I don't think that one is wrong and the other right. I take it for what it is. A difference of tastes and I realize that I can try both of their suggestions without having to sacrifice my own interpretation of the subject and perhaps I'll come away with a larger idea or at least a better idea of why I like what I like.
Disagreement (even on art) is never a bad thing. Trying to stopper someone's vote or voice or critique is not going to help strengthen the DPC community.
(wow I REALLY didn't get enough sleep last night - sorry for the rambling)
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09/04/2003 08:12:22 AM · #14 |
I think there is a bad interpretation (perhaps my english is worse than I think...). I want to make a little reference to "ghost accounts". I am going to try to explain my idea, clearly.
I am sure there are people, who has more than one account. And perhaps, this accounts only exists to vote him a good average, and vote without any kind of reason the others pictures....
I hope you can understand what I want to say. It´s very difficult for me, express my ideas in english, sorry.
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09/04/2003 08:19:39 AM · #15 |
Problem is in open submissions such as this, you have people who do not always know what is makes up a "good" photo or aren't sophisticated enough to pick up on certain nuances. That's why many of us are here - we want to get better.
The voting process itself is its own little lesson. I've learned quite a bit just while grading the photos. I vote based on my own limited experience, then compare how other people voted. I purposefully look at the top ten or so to see if maybe there was something I missed or didn't account for, because I know I'm a novice and know that I will screw up. :)
Don't hate the 1-3 rankers, we just don't always know any better.
btw - I gave that picture a 7, personally (please don't hurt me). |
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09/05/2003 06:37:34 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
Very nice shot.
Ribbon or not ribbon, it is really weird that:
1 - it ended up 80 of 256
2 - it did get 4 1s, 13 2s and 16 3s which are "impossible" votes for this kind of pic and they certainly contribute heavily to the average. I can understand differences in taste but, even if you do not like the pic or you think that it is slightly off topic because of the girl's presence (there is a big tool too..), I still cannot see how it is possible to rate this pic less than 4: NO WAY.
3 - there is a very sensible difference between the average of users with a camera (5.486) and the users with no camera (4.333). NO doubt that the largest (how large?) set of trolls hide in the second category.
faidoi, you did well to point this out.
I believe that DPC should do something to avoid these things happening. |
totally agree on all your points.
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09/05/2003 06:48:40 AM · #17 |
Trolls are being blamed too much for everything. Why would they have targetted this photo in particular?
Irrespective of how many ones it received, it is fair to say that amongst the DPC voters it came 80th... and there is no fairer way to do it. Perhaps some people are too easily swayed by how they feel about a photo, even if it is technically very good. Most of us will score a photo relatively well if it has been executed well regardless of whether we like it, but perhaps the reason for these low scores are NOT trolls but people who immediately vote as to whether they like the feel of it. I can dislike works of art which I can recognise have 'quality', but they're just not to my taste. FWIW, I gave it a 7. |
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09/05/2003 06:50:27 AM · #18 |
Don´t blame more.... Today is Friday, the weekend begins and this I am going to take 3 beers thinking in this big community... Yippi!!!!
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09/05/2003 03:32:05 PM · #19 |
Its been said before on here time and time again - somebodys 3 is sombody elses 8. People look at photos differently. The particular photo which started this topic off is technically good but i will be honest and say its does nothing for me. As for Ghost voting - well if people do that then they are really sad.
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09/05/2003 03:42:36 PM · #20 |
The average person gave it a 6, so the average person thought it was a good but not a wow shot. Yes there were some who thought it was wow, and other who did not get it, did not like it, etc... but overall the distribution does for a bell curve. To truely be the work of trolls (ie people who just vote down good shots to have theirs marked higher) then the average would form two hills, one peak of "regular" votes, and a second peak where the trolls voted.
I liked it but it was not a wow shot for me, too dark in the bottom right for one thing. To me a ribbon shot should not only be technically perfect but also a wow shot. The sort that just take my breath away.
For some this shot had that WOW factor, but not to the majority. |
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09/05/2003 03:51:14 PM · #21 |
I posted an idea about a ranking system on another thread. The basic idea being that people can compare shots and rank them more consistently than they can assign a score of 1-10. I think this works with the theme of the site, but might add a little consistency and some interest. I may have given out 25 7s on the tools challenge, but it might have been more fun to rank them relative to each other.
Message edited by author 2003-09-05 15:51:52. |
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