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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> Upsizing RAW versus upsizing JPG
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 09/11/2007 09:59:13 AM · #1
Starting with an out-of-camera RAW file versus and out-of-camera 'high quality' JPG file, if I upsize them the same amount will I get the same end quality from both types?

I think both should give the same quality, as I'm starting with the same number of pixels in both, but I'm not sure if RAW has more pixel information stored or something.
 09/11/2007 10:05:15 AM · #2
You're not starting with the same quality so you won't end up with the same quality. This is of course assuming that you keep all 12 bits/channel of the raw file during conversion to PSD or TIFF.

09/11/2007 10:08:15 AM · #3
RAW files have 12 bits of information per channel (14 on some cameras) vs. 8 bits for JPEG. The result will be smoother gradations and less noise when working with RAW files. More data is always better for enlargements.
 09/11/2007 10:11:31 AM · #4
Can you actually upsize RAW files? I've always converted to TIFF first, then upsized (after any PP work)...

Message edited by author 2007-09-11 10:12:27.
 09/11/2007 10:17:06 AM · #5
How much sharpening you apply to an image should really depend on the size of the image you are printing. The trouble with upsizing a jpeg is that the jpeg will already have had some level of sharpening applied and upsizing can make sharpening artifacts begin to appear.

So if you plan to do it, at least turn your in-camera sharpening down low and sharpen later.
09/11/2007 10:50:56 AM · #6
Thanks for all the replies.

I'm just opening the raw file directly in photoshop, and I notice that the first thing it does is convert it to RGB/8. So I assume if I want to edit it or resize it and make use of the full 12 bits per channel then I should use the raw software to first convert it to TIFF, which should retain the 16 bits per channel. (I just tested saving as JPG and it always defaults to 8 bits per channel)

Good point on the in-camera sharpening as well. I only have to worry about that if I'm shooting JPG, right?
 09/11/2007 11:37:58 AM · #7
Originally posted by jhonan:
...the first thing it does is convert it to RGB/8...


Merely opening the file will not convert to 8-bit unless you tell it to. Bit depth, white balance, sharpness, saturation, etc. are all defined by the RAW settings you specify for conversion, and the file will be in Photoshop format until you save it as something else. JPEG are an 8-bit format, but you can save 12-bit files as TIFF, PSD or several others. Note that this is only important for editing purposes. Once you've made all your edits, the separate file you save for print will likely be a JPEG.
 09/11/2007 11:39:25 AM · #8
In Adobe Camera Raw you have the option to open the file in 16 bit (it's in the bottom of the window below the picture).

A jpg file is an 8 bit file - you can't have it any other way.
 09/11/2007 11:39:52 AM · #9
How do you upsize a RAW file?
 09/11/2007 11:46:13 AM · #10
Originally posted by ursula:
How do you upsize a RAW file?


I believe the OP's talking about whether shooting in RAW vs. JPEG makes a difference if you're going to scale up the image later since the number of pixels is the same in both cases. You'd have to upsize or make any other changes to RAW files during or after conversion. Oh, but it's worth noting that if you're upsizing a file in PS, use the "Bicubic Smoother" setting.

Message edited by author 2007-09-11 11:48:08.
 09/11/2007 11:47:00 AM · #11
Originally posted by ursula:
How do you upsize a RAW file?

In ACR at the bottom is a 'Workflow options' box, revealed when you click on the output file option there (eg Adobe RGB, 16 bit .....etc) Select a + file size as the output file. I use this method for upsizing for Alamy, to 100mb files from a Canon 5D without any problems. :)
 09/11/2007 11:50:48 AM · #12
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by ursula:
How do you upsize a RAW file?


I believe the OP's talking about whether shooting in RAW vs. JPEG makes a difference if you're going to scale up the image later since the number of pixels is the same in both cases. You'd have to upsize or make any other changes to RAW files during or after conversion. Oh, but it's worth noting that if you're upsizing a file in PS, use the "Bicubic Smoother" setting.


Does up sizing using "Bicubic Smoother" apply to PS CS3 as well Shannon?

Message edited by author 2007-09-11 11:51:12.
 09/11/2007 12:26:51 PM · #13
Originally posted by Marigold:
Originally posted by ursula:
How do you upsize a RAW file?

In ACR at the bottom is a 'Workflow options' box, revealed when you click on the output file option there (eg Adobe RGB, 16 bit .....etc) Select a + file size as the output file. I use this method for upsizing for Alamy, to 100mb files from a Canon 5D without any problems. :)


This is the method I just started using, selected 17mp for upsizing images from my 30D. Some people say that on macro images the quality of this method still doesnt compare to using genuine fractals. What is your experience here, have you had the opportunity to compare ARC upsized to GF upsized images? I dont have GF and would rather not buy it if I dont have to so any input is appreciated.

It actually looks like photozoom may be even better tha GF, has anyone used it? Some side by side comparisons can be seen here.

Side by Side comparison

Message edited by author 2007-09-11 12:33:05.
 09/11/2007 12:35:49 PM · #14
Originally posted by Marigold:
Originally posted by ursula:
How do you upsize a RAW file?

In ACR at the bottom is a 'Workflow options' box, revealed when you click on the output file option there (eg Adobe RGB, 16 bit .....etc) Select a + file size as the output file. I use this method for upsizing for Alamy, to 100mb files from a Canon 5D without any problems. :)

So then you do any PP on the large file size instead of PP first then resizing?
 09/11/2007 12:42:54 PM · #15
Originally posted by Marigold:
Originally posted by ursula:
How do you upsize a RAW file?

In ACR at the bottom is a 'Workflow options' box, revealed when you click on the output file option there (eg Adobe RGB, 16 bit .....etc) Select a + file size as the output file. I use this method for upsizing for Alamy, to 100mb files from a Canon 5D without any problems. :)


Interesting. I'd never noticed this option to upsize while converting from RAW to TIFF. I wonder, if you want a large file, is it better to do it immediately (on conversion) or later on?
 09/11/2007 12:49:22 PM · #16
Originally posted by ursula:

Interesting. I'd never noticed this option to upsize while converting from RAW to TIFF. I wonder, if you want a large file, is it better to do it immediately (on conversion) or later on?


Well, will definitely slow down your work flow working with the larger files. However, I think if you add no sharpening in RAW conversion or pre-upsize PS that there is little benefit, if you are working in 16-bit.
 09/11/2007 12:55:29 PM · #17
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Can you actually upsize RAW files? I've always converted to TIFF first, then upsized (after any PP work)...


When exporting from ACR you have the option of basicly doubling the file (Gives you several smaller and a couple bigger dimension options).

This is also there for camera's with superCCD which ACR defaults to the smaller (actual sensor count) but gives a star next to the interpolated size.
 09/11/2007 01:19:39 PM · #18
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Marigold:
Originally posted by ursula:
How do you upsize a RAW file?

In ACR at the bottom is a 'Workflow options' box, revealed when you click on the output file option there (eg Adobe RGB, 16 bit .....etc) Select a + file size as the output file. I use this method for upsizing for Alamy, to 100mb files from a Canon 5D without any problems. :)

So then you do any PP on the large file size instead of PP first then resizing?

Yes, after adjusting exposure/curves/white balance/saturation/healing etc in RAW there's often little left to do apart from dodging and burning :)
 09/11/2007 01:27:50 PM · #19
Originally posted by Marigold:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Marigold:
Originally posted by ursula:
How do you upsize a RAW file?

In ACR at the bottom is a 'Workflow options' box, revealed when you click on the output file option there (eg Adobe RGB, 16 bit .....etc) Select a + file size as the output file. I use this method for upsizing for Alamy, to 100mb files from a Canon 5D without any problems. :)

So then you do any PP on the large file size instead of PP first then resizing?

Yes, after adjusting exposure/curves/white balance/saturation/healing etc in RAW there's often little left to do apart from dodging and burning :)

Looks like I need to do some experimenting. I use RSE 2006 for RAW conversion. PSP X also handles RAW files but I've not used it since I have RSE. Hmmm...have to take another look at what PSP can do with RAW files.

Thanks for the motivation. I have to work a tad bit harder than you I think for Alamy submissions with my 6mp KM 5D. :P
 09/11/2007 01:30:23 PM · #20
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by ursula:

Interesting. I'd never noticed this option to upsize while converting from RAW to TIFF. I wonder, if you want a large file, is it better to do it immediately (on conversion) or later on?


Well, will definitely slow down your work flow working with the larger files. However, I think if you add no sharpening in RAW conversion or pre-upsize PS that there is little benefit, if you are working in 16-bit.

According to Adobe's Thomas Knoll, author of Camera Raw, if you need to upsample, it's best to increase the image size one step in Camera Raw. :)
 09/11/2007 04:36:19 PM · #21
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Thanks for the motivation. I have to work a tad bit harder than you I think for Alamy submissions with my 6mp KM 5D. :P

It was the Alamy submission requirements which inspired this thread... :)

I suppose it boils down to workflow, yet again. And the order I can see things having to be done in order to maintain the maximum quality when upsizing for Alamy is;

- Shoot RAW
- Use as much of the frame when composing the shot as possible so we're not throwing pixels away at the crop stage
- Import into the RAW conversion software
- Crop (in RAW software)
- Resize up to 48M (in RAW software)
- Do any other RAW exposure adjustments
- Output as 16-bit TIFF
- Load TIFF into PS
- Clone out dust, do other PS touch ups
- Sharpen
- Output as max quality JPG

But I'll take a look around the thousand or so 'workflow' threads for other ideas... :)
 09/11/2007 05:03:42 PM · #22
Originally posted by Marigold:

According to Adobe's Thomas Knoll, author of Camera Raw, if you need to upsample, it's best to increase the image size one step in Camera Raw. :)


I did say "little benefit" ... I can definitely understand that the first step is probably the best place to do it, much like noise reduction.
09/11/2007 05:17:28 PM · #23
I've always wondered this, but have been upsizing after all my work in PS. Maybe I'll toy with upsizing in the RAW to something closer to my final size and then do the rest in PS. The problem with what I'm doing is I'm resizing to three sizes (5x7, 10x13, 12x16 all at 460 DPI). I'd hate to resize in RAW each time and redo the workflow for each different size.

Hmmm, something to ponder.
 09/11/2007 05:17:37 PM · #24
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Marigold:

According to Adobe's Thomas Knoll, author of Camera Raw, if you need to upsample, it's best to increase the image size one step in Camera Raw. :)


I did say "little benefit" ... I can definitely understand that the first step is probably the best place to do it, much like noise reduction.

Sorry, I was actually agreeing with you ;)

jhonan, you could use the 'heal' tool in RAW for those dust spots, rather than cloning in PS, I find it gives a better result in most circumstances :)

09/11/2007 05:20:17 PM · #25
Originally posted by Nald:
...it's worth noting that if you're upsizing a file in PS, use the "Bicubic Smoother" setting.


Does up sizing using "Bicubic Smoother" apply to PS CS3 as well Shannon? [/quote]

Yes. I saw a comparison somewhere (maybe Popular Photography) that showed Bicubic Smoother interpolation results are similar to Genuine Fractals.
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