Frame-Filling 101 - DPChallenge Forums

08/27/2007 06:56:12 PM · #51

Originally posted by zxaar:

1.If voting 1s and 2s is so bad why do we have these scales. Why not just remove the votes 1 and 2

That's fine...but how many of the 1 and 2 voters actually use 9 and 10...and if so...in what ratio?

08/27/2007 07:00:18 PM · #52

Originally posted by rugman1969:

You do have a point on that. But this is the challenge description:

Description: Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame.

I don't see how to misinterpret that.
To me, that means subject only. no background, etc...

I hear ya and is your right to vote that way. I do not take umbrage with that.

What I do have a hard time with is the constant need beat down ones own interpretation of the description as being the only correct one. Not that you are doing that just that it never fails that someone thinks most all the images in any given challenge are DNMC.

I would hope that instead of going right to the DNMC and giving it a 1 that the viewer could give maybe just an inch more latitude and allow the image to speak. If you don't like what it has to say after that then hammer it!

Message edited by author 2007-08-27 19:01:52.

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8D ED

08/27/2007 07:05:27 PM · #53

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

What I do have a hard time with is the constant need beat down ones own interpretation of the description as being the only correct one. Not that you are doing that just that it never fails that someone thinks most all the images in any given challenge are DNMC.

I would hope that instead of going right to the DNMC and giving it a 1 that the viewer could give maybe just an inch more latitude and allow the image to speak. If you don't like what it has to say after that then hammer it!

On most challenges I would agree with you, but this one is very specific, fill all of the frame. It really is quite simple this one...

rugman1969

Nikon D90

08/27/2007 07:05:31 PM · #54

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by rugman1969:

You do have a point on that. But this is the challenge description:

Description: Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame.

I don't see how to misinterpret that.
To me, that means subject only. no background, etc...

I hear ya and is your right to vote that way. I do not take umbrage with that.

What I do have a hard time with is the constant need beat down ones own interpretation of the description as being the only one. Not that you are doing that just that it never fails that someone thinks most all the images in any given challenge are DNMC.

I would hope that instead of going right to the DNMC and giving it a 1 that the viewer could give maybe just an inch more latitude and allow the image to speak. If you don't like what it has to say after that then hammer it!

I hear ya, but the only problems I have with that is ... why even try to meet the challenge ever. Make everything a free study and take pics of whatever and however you want. I don't want to vote low, but when I bust my chops to do the right thing, so many of these pics that didn't do so much better than the ones who did the right thing. I would love to find a way to discourage this completely, and if you can tell me one other than DNMC with a low vote, I would be willing to try. I don't like to vote low, but I do vote the full range of the scale. I vote 10's, I vote 1's. But I admit I do vote a DNMC lower than I would if it had met challenge description. I am open to suggestions from anyone.

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

08/27/2007 07:09:47 PM · #55

Originally posted by rugman1969:

I would love to find a way to discourage this completely, and if you can tell me one other than DNMC with a low vote, I would be willing to try. I don't like to vote low, but I do vote the full range of the scale. I vote 10's, I vote 1's. But I admit I do vote a DNMC lower than I would if it had met challenge description. I am open to suggestions from anyone.

The only way to discourage it completely is to make DNMC DQ-able. This has been tried in one or two technical challenges, if I recall correctly.

However it would result in a massive workload on SC, and also lots of debate in challenges like this one. For example; "But that IS part of the subject"..."No it's not, it's part of the background"...etc...etc...

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

08/27/2007 07:13:55 PM · #56

Originally posted by JeffDay:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

What I do have a hard time with is the constant need beat down ones own interpretation of the description as being the only correct one. Not that you are doing that just that it never fails that someone thinks most all the images in any given challenge are DNMC.

I would hope that instead of going right to the DNMC and giving it a 1 that the viewer could give maybe just an inch more latitude and allow the image to speak. If you don't like what it has to say after that then hammer it!

On most challenges I would agree with you, but this one is very specific, fill all of the frame. It really is quite simple this one...

I agree it is simple but lets test that?

Challenge description was:

"Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame."

Does this photo meet that description?

In my opinion it does 100%. Nothing but her subject is in the frame.

zxaar

08/27/2007 07:14:09 PM · #57

Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by zxaar:

1.If voting 1s and 2s is so bad why do we have these scales. Why not just remove the votes 1 and 2

That's fine...but how many of the 1 and 2 voters actually use 9 and 10...and if so...in what ratio?

My average vote cast is 6.
(I know you are intelligent )

08/27/2007 07:14:48 PM · #58

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Using Steve's example along with the challenge description: Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame.

One could argue both sides with this image unless in the description it included the caveat "no background at all blurred or otherwise."

Then to me it is DNMC but again I give a certain latitude.

But I don't believe that Steve's dog is DNMC because it certainly fills the frame for me.

It is a technical challenge and as such is harder to argue this point however I stand true to my belief that if all you are looking for is the DNMC then you most likely will miss something of significance that may further inspire you as the viewer.

Message edited by author 2007-08-27 19:15:49.

Judi

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

08/27/2007 07:16:31 PM · #59

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by zxaar:

1.If voting 1s and 2s is so bad why do we have these scales. Why not just remove the votes 1 and 2

That's fine...but how many of the 1 and 2 voters actually use 9 and 10...and if so...in what ratio?

My average vote cast is 6.
(I know you are intelligent )

Good...but I doubt that all the low voters include the entire scale.

Apple iPhone 5

08/27/2007 07:21:44 PM · #60

Originally posted by yanko:

"Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame."

Does this photo meet that description?

In my opinion it does 100%. Nothing but her subject is in the frame.

Let's logically dissect the challenge title and description. Fill the Frame - To me this says the frame must be filled completely with the subject. The description says nothing but your subject. So that means no backgrounds etc. even if they are white.

Now, it also says 'your subject', not 'a part of your subject'. So the only type of photo which could comply 100% with the challenge title and description is that of a perfectly rectangular subject completely filling the frame to the edges with no background visible. :D

Which would make for a pretty boring challenge.

08/27/2007 07:23:54 PM · #61

DNMC?

Yes and No

If my subject is the girl then no if the subject is the girls nose then yes.

Still a very subjective description...

Message edited by author 2007-08-27 19:24:18.

08/27/2007 07:25:21 PM · #62

So pretty much you are saying this is a free study, My subject is 'mother earth' any landscape will do because all the frame is filled with my beautiful something.....is that also right? So there are no DNMC in this challenge.

08/27/2007 07:26:34 PM · #63

Originally posted by JeffDay:

No that is not what I am saying.

08/27/2007 07:27:56 PM · #64

What I am saying is that both the examples of Steve's dog and Kita's mouth meet the challenge for me. But I don't think I would give as wide a berth as a landscape meeting the challenge.

zxaar

08/27/2007 07:28:04 PM · #65

Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by zxaar:

1.If voting 1s and 2s is so bad why do we have these scales. Why not just remove the votes 1 and 2

That's fine...but how many of the 1 and 2 voters actually use 9 and 10...and if so...in what ratio?

My average vote cast is 6.
(I know you are intelligent )

Good...but I doubt that all the low voters include the entire scale.

This is true, I remember long time ago some one started a thread saying that she was hit by low votes, and on the same time her own average vote cast was 2.8. (yes it is true). (now her avg vote cast is Avg Vote Cast: 3.2468)

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

08/27/2007 07:28:18 PM · #66

Sorry should of quoted, wasn't reffering to you

thegrandwazoo but the others saying that the background is filling the frame so there are no DNMC's.

And for the record, I didn't score any 1's or 2's in this challenge, if the entry didn't fill the frame they didn't receive the best possible score, thats all.

Message edited by author 2007-08-27 19:36:09.

Photologist

Apple iPhone 16 Pro Max

08/27/2007 07:34:42 PM · #67

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Description: Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame.

I don't see how to misinterpret that.
To me, that means subject only. no background, etc...

Here's how you can misinterpret that...

What if the subject WAS in the frame at capture time--the camera's focus frame!? That would qualify. The voter may not know that it was fully filled-in that frame, but the image really was full-framed. The description doesn't specify which "frame".

So, the challenge description is subjective to anyone's elucidation. So there, can we now move on and vote for the quality of the photos, not the anal-retentiveness of some of the voters? ;-)

Message edited by author 2007-08-27 19:36:07.

zxaar

08/27/2007 07:35:16 PM · #68

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

What I am saying is that both the examples of Steve's dog and Kita's mouth meet the challenge for me. But I don't think I would give as wide a berth as a landscape meeting the challenge.

This is difficult challenge to interpret. For this reason I wished to stay away from it.
For me too they meet the challenge.

Les_Feck

Sony SLT-A58

Sony DT 18–55mm f/3.5–5.6 SAM AF

08/27/2007 07:37:34 PM · #69

Dumb Question to SC and Programmers:

How difficult would it be, either independent or inclusive of scoring on a 1-10 scale, to add a seperate check box on the voting page to indicate whether or not a particular photo met the "challenge"?

MaryO

Nikon Z8

Nikon NIKKOR Z 28-400mm f/4-8

08/27/2007 07:39:24 PM · #70

:::peeks in, sees an interesting threadjack:::

Originally posted by kawesttex:

It is not truly full until the water is level with the top, then you must add enough water to rise above the rim until it breaks the surface tension which leaves the water level above the rim. You cannot truly carry a full pail of water grasshopper.

No, no; you are assuming a convex meniscus when optimal surface tension is achieved, but it should be concave between water and a pail, should it not? Gotta' watch those assumptions ;-)

Originally posted by kawesttex:

EDIT: At what point is it considered full?

When the point is exactly the right size for angels to dance on. IMO. Feel free to debate exactly how many angels and etc.

:::wanders off to vote or do something equally uncontentious:::

bassbone

Nikon Z8

Nikon NIKKOR Z 24-120 f/4 S

08/27/2007 07:39:33 PM · #71

that is what the 1 to 10 voting is for - how well is the photograph taken, how artistic is it, how does it represent the challenge description/theme. another box really does not help - we already have a scoring system

Originally posted by jonejess: