Racial profiling, photographer harassment or?

Pentax FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited AF

08/22/2007 04:17:56 PM · #26

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
I think we'd be pretty foolish to assume that the FBI has released everything they know about these guys.
What scares me is the reasons they did release it.

Yes... we must trust and obey our benevolent leaders...

That's a bit of a jump from what I typed, isn't it? I stated nor implied no such thing. Are you stereotyping me as a neocon because I'm concerend about a terrorist attack on a boat I ride? Please don't mischaracterize me like that.

If you disagree with my statement you quoted, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

eamurdock

Pentax KP

08/22/2007 04:40:30 PM · #27

Originally posted by Chinabun:

I was using that as an example of how they are being singled out for being middle eastern taking photos of odd things. It's the same thing with sterotyping others with the clothes they wear. I'd be suspicious too.

Originally posted by eamurdock:
"You wanna dress like a gangster or a thug then expect to get treated that way."

Um, in my take of the picure they're dressed very much like ordinary folks. They're only suspicious because they're taking pictures ("not of seabirds") and they're probably of middle eastern descent.

Problem is, "dressing like a gangster" is not the same as "taking photographs." Dressing like a gangster is a concious decision to make a class statement - it's intended to be interpreted. Taking picures is just that.

I'm surprised - there are lots of threads about photographers getting harrassed for shooting a bridge, or what have you, and we all get up in arms about rights - yet in this case, everyone shrugs and says "oh well, thems the breaks." Well, no, not in my america, and not on my watch.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. " - Benjamin Franklin

08/22/2007 04:59:24 PM · #28

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
I think we'd be pretty foolish to assume that the FBI has released everything they know about these guys.
What scares me is the reasons they did release it.

Yes... we must trust and obey our benevolent leaders...

That's a bit of a jump from what I typed, isn't it? I stated nor implied no such thing. Are you stereotyping me as a neocon because I'm concerend about a terrorist attack on a boat I ride? Please don't mischaracterize me like that.

If you disagree with my statement you quoted, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I think it's dangerous to assume that the FBI must have other data or reasons for their actions.
It's the same argument used in support of trusting the executive branch to police itself in regards to warrantless wire taps (which is a recent stomach turning result of Congress not wanting debate to impose on summer vacation).

08/22/2007 05:12:13 PM · #29

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
I think we'd be pretty foolish to assume that the FBI has released everything they know about these guys.
What scares me is the reasons they did release it.

Yes... we must trust and obey our benevolent leaders...

That's a bit of a jump from what I typed, isn't it? I stated nor implied no such thing. Are you stereotyping me as a neocon because I'm concerend about a terrorist attack on a boat I ride? Please don't mischaracterize me like that.

If you disagree with my statement you quoted, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I think it's dangerous to assume that the FBI must have other data or reasons for their actions.
It's the same argument used in support of trusting the executive branch to police itself in regards to warrantless wire taps (which is a recent stomach turning result of Congress not wanting debate to impose on summer vacation).

Lets not turn this into a left vs right rant. Start your own thread for warantless wire taps if that is what you want to talk about.

I agree that you should never just believe everything fed to you, which is why I don't believe that the FBI is releasing everything they know. As I said, the FBI had a lot of reasons not to release what they did. Either they are stupid, or they have good reason to be curious about these guys.

fotomann_forever

08/22/2007 05:20:22 PM · #30

Originally posted by ajdelaware:

I just like how if he was a black guy hed be a criminal, if he was a white guy hed be a nerdy photographer, if he was asian hed be a tourist, but since hes middle eastern hes a terrorist.

Uhhh, excuse me, that's intellectually-gifted-American photographer.

JawnyRico

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

08/22/2007 05:34:16 PM · #31

I do agree with you LoudDog in the fact that not everything was released by the FBI. They would be idiots if they put everything they knew in the article.

eamurdock this was a beautiful quote...."Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. " - Benjamin Franklin But Benjamin Franklin never went through 9/11 there bud....

Someone said it best earlier in this thread, if nothing was brought up and something did happen, people would be screaming that we had info or pictures or suspicion of these guys and nothing was done in advance. I appreciate all the hard work the FBI and other governments do to keep America and around the Globe safe.

eamurdock

Pentax KP

Pentax FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited AF

08/22/2007 05:53:02 PM · #32

Originally posted by JawnyRico:

...Benjamin Franklin never went through 9/11 there bud....

There were plenty of threats to the US's security in Franklin's time; many more, in fact, than there are now. But Franklin, and the other founders, operated on the principle that freedom was the single most important value to defend, and recognized that with freedom comes a loss of security. Our freedom is what has made us what we are as a country. The concepts of due process, open government, habeus corpus, are the basic cornerstones of the American view of liberty.

I understand people's fears, but when we have soldiers who are willing to die for our freedom it seems foolish to turn around and give it away for nothing. I could live in fear of being hit by a car, but I don't - I take a calculated risk that being able to leave the house is worth the risk.

The argument "Everything changed on 9/11" is shortsighted, and frankly wrong. We have faced many dangers as a society, much greater than this one (the Cuban missile crisis comes to mind, and the Civil War, both of which dwarf 9/11 by orders of magnitude) and have survived them with our freedoms intact.

The problem with giving too much power, in secret, to the government is that it WILL be abused. Even if it is requested and given in good faith, power corrupts and will, in time, be used against the innocent. To drop another quote, "I love my country, but fear my government."

sabphoto

Samsung Galaxy S8/S8+

08/22/2007 07:59:19 PM · #33

I do wonder if just maybe the FBI decided to release the info and images of these two men as a way of letting them know they have been noticed and their plans are most likly foiled.

ASSUMING (not acussing) they are terrorist, if they know that their plans are possibly known they are most likly going to either cancel the plans or delay them and this delay just might be long enough for the authorities to learn more.

It is a sad world we live in where a person has to be careful of what they do or where they go, especially because of what nationality they are. But it is a fact of life, and as in-politically correct as it may be, everyone is profiled in one way or another and truth be known some might even deserve it.

08/22/2007 10:39:09 PM · #34

Originally posted by JawnyRico:

Give me a break.
I'm so sick of the 9/11 card being played to justify anything the government wants to do... "trust us we're trying to protect you."

And to "LoudDog", hey "dawg" you asked me to eloborate a bit on my sarcastic reply to you so I did.
I think they are related, which are my "thoughts" which you requested.
You're the one making this a "left vs right" thing or a "neocon" argument.
I'm just pissed at the ever-lowering value our civil liberties seem to getting from our government.
And hey "bud" it's a democratically controlled Congress that passed that shit.

Message edited by author 2007-08-22 22:57:42.

Chinabun

Canon PowerShot SD990 IS

08/23/2007 08:28:15 AM · #35

Originally posted by Gotaka:

Originally posted by Chinabun:
I was using that as an example of how they are being singled out for being middle eastern taking photos of odd things. It's the same thing with sterotyping others with the clothes they wear. I'd be suspicious too.

Originally posted by eamurdock:
"You wanna dress like a gangster or a thug then expect to get treated that way."

Um, in my take of the picure they're dressed very much like ordinary folks. They're only suspicious because they're taking pictures ("not of seabirds") and they're probably of middle eastern descent.

Only difference is that if you stereotype a gangster, it ends there. You won't be talking to him or worse comes to worse you call the cops if he/she is making trouble. But when you stereotype an entire ethnicity and lable them as terrorists, they will be sent to jail outside the US without access to his/her basic human rights. and we all know how they are treated there. And Some of them do deserve to be in jail for the safety of the rest of us, but do you really want to send an innocent person there and have that in your conscious? I hope not.

AJSullivan

08/23/2007 08:28:54 AM · #36

I bought this shirt off of shirts.woot.com

THREAT LEVEL BLOOD RED!

JawnyRico

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

08/23/2007 09:05:39 AM · #37

[quote=Chinabun] Everyone gets singled out for something and everyone has stereotypes. I have been in jail for doing nothing. All I did was ask for keys in our so called America. The City of Baltimore was conducting a "No Tolerance" policy at the time. The commissioner who started that policy ended up in prison, but thats another story...All i'm saying is that it can happen to anyone, not just people who look middle eastern. So to each his own. If people dont like how it's done here, they can move.
[quote=Chinabun]

Hey CB, the reason you were thrown in jail is because they thought you were a working girl, trying to make some money... :) So sexy.....lol...

In response to eamurdock, I agree with you totally, but you know how much they already DO KNOW, and how much we are watched EVERYDAY!! We have no freedom. How many times do you think we are on camera each day. Gas stations, Banks, Commercial Buildings, now Satellite (sp). They are in our shit, its over, they probably know I am writing right now and not working. And rswank, you made a good point and you have every right to your opinion, I didn't think you turned it into a right/left thing. I wasn't TRYING to use the 9/11 card. I just meant that everything seemed to change, and they seemed to show more attention to detail, and protection for civilians after that happened.

Message edited by author 2007-08-23 09:06:00.

Gotaka

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G IF-ED VR

08/23/2007 09:07:10 AM · #38

Originally posted by Chinabun:

Everyone gets singled out for something and everyone has stereotypes. I have been in jail for doing nothing. All I did was ask for keys in our so called America. The City of Baltimore was conducting a "No Tolerance" policy at the time. The commissioner who started that policy ended up in prison, but thats another story...All i'm saying is that it can happen to anyone, not just people who look middle eastern. So to each his own. If people dont like how it's done here, they can move.

Originally posted by Gotaka:

Originally posted by Chinabun:
I was using that as an example of how they are being singled out for being middle eastern taking photos of odd things. It's the same thing with sterotyping others with the clothes they wear. I'd be suspicious too.

Originally posted by eamurdock:
"You wanna dress like a gangster or a thug then expect to get treated that way."

Um, in my take of the picure they're dressed very much like ordinary folks. They're only suspicious because they're taking pictures ("not of seabirds") and they're probably of middle eastern descent.

Only difference is that if you stereotype a gangster, it ends there. You won't be talking to him or worse comes to worse you call the cops if he/she is making trouble. But when you stereotype an entire ethnicity and lable them as terrorists, they will be sent to jail outside the US without access to his/her basic human rights. and we all know how they are treated there. And Some of them do deserve to be in jail for the safety of the rest of us, but do you really want to send an innocent person there and have that in your conscious? I hope not.

Move? What do you think people are, cowards?

The test of courage comes when we are in the minority. The test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority.
Ralph W. Sockman

JawnyRico

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

08/23/2007 09:09:37 AM · #39

Gotaka......I think she meant that if you can't take being profiled or being watched or even the way they handle things to move.... because its not gonna change..... unfortunately...

Gotaka

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G IF-ED VR

08/23/2007 09:19:12 AM · #40

Originally posted by JawnyRico:

Gotaka......I think she meant that if you can't take being profiled or being watched or even the way they handle things to move.... because its not gonna change..... unfortunately...

Hence, the quote I mentioned. But that logic does not make any sense. If the minority always moved on to different locations because they couldn't handle reality, do you think we'd still have black people in America? It takes courage to stand up to the majority and as a minority in this country, I take that as an insult to the thousands of people who try to live a better life.

ragamuffingirl

Sony Alpha NEX-5N

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

08/23/2007 09:19:59 AM · #41

Racial profiling is wrong. Having said that, the sad fact is it's going to happen anyway. In 2003, Spawn and I took the bus to Florida for Thanksgiving. When the bus stopped in Dulles, Homeland Security got on (who would waste a bomb on a bus?) and searched several people... all person's of color. Even though about half the passengers were white, none of us were searched. Spawn and I were each sitting next to black passengers. Spawn's seat mate got searched. Spawn did not. The SS...errr.. Homeland Security officers THREATENED to detain one white guy who was shooting off his mouth about the blatant discrimnation/racial profiling that was happening, but ultimately did nothing to him.

Now, this one is kind of funny. In 2004, I was working at Staples during the Christmas season. We had an Israeli customer who came in every day (he was running a kiosk in the mall). Anyway, one day he was buying/faxing/copying a lot of stuff. He was on the phone yelling in Hebrew while I was serving him. Another customer was giving him dirty looks. After he left, another employee said something to me about what was wrong with him, and I said I didn't know, but that he was yelling in Hebrew at someone on the phone. The customer who'd been giving him dirty looks said, "Hebrew? I thought that guy was some kind of middle easterner!" I wanted to ask him where he thought Israel was.

AJSullivan

08/23/2007 09:25:16 AM · #42

Wait. He was copying...and faxing?! I need the tapes pulled immediately and his picture sent to the vatican. Alert Mel Gibson ASAP!

This is part of the jewish take over the world and destroy christmas conspiracy!

Message edited by author 2007-08-23 09:25:30.

08/23/2007 09:25:29 AM · #43

Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

The customer who'd been giving him dirty looks said, "Hebrew? I thought that guy was some kind of middle easterner!" I wanted to ask him where he thought Israel was.

Hahaha.
That is almost too sad to be funny.
We (Americans) think we are the center of the world and the ignorance never ceases to amaze me.

08/23/2007 09:41:08 AM · #44

Originally posted by rswank:

And to "LoudDog", hey "dawg" you asked me to eloborate a bit on my sarcastic reply to you so I did.
I think they are related, which are my "thoughts" which you requested.
You're the one making this a "left vs right" thing or a "neocon" argument.
I'm just pissed at the ever-lowering value our civil liberties seem to getting from our government.
And hey "bud" it's a democratically controlled Congress that passed that shit.

Sorry if dawg misinterpreted your post bud :)

And actually I'm very interested in your opinion, I just wish you'd convey it with less anger and without sarcasim as it would be much easier to understand that way and then this doesn't just turn into a big useless fight with people throwing talking points at each other like most of the rant threads. I'd hope we can disagree without hating each other.

I think the FBI is in a tough position. They were scorned after 9/11 because they said nothing about middle eastern people learning to fly planes but not concerend about landing when there were rumors of middle eastern terrorist using planes, now they are being scorned for raising a flag about middle easterners investigating the workings of the ferry system when it's been identified that the ferry system is a prime target for middle eastern terrorist. I guess you can't please all of the people all of the time?

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

08/23/2007 09:50:32 AM · #45

Article on the reaction to what the FBI did:

//seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003849315_ferries23m.html

Interesting to note that the Time's photographer, who is white, was stopped and questioned when he was taking photos of the same things the two guys were.

FireBird

08/23/2007 10:03:36 AM · #46

Originally posted by rswank:

We (Americans) think we are the center of the world and the ignorance never ceases to amaze me.

Unfortunately we don't have a monopoly on this problem.

FireBird

08/23/2007 10:07:07 AM · #47

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Uhhh, excuse me, that's intellectually-gifted-American photographer.

Huh? Somebody call me?

neophyte

Nikon D810

08/23/2007 10:09:46 AM · #48

Funny how there've been no more reports of these men/photographers, whatever their ethnic origins are, since their photos were released....That probably tells me the most.