Racial profiling, photographer harassment or?

Sigma 18-125mm f/3.5-5.6 DC for Canon

08/22/2007 10:22:05 AM · #1

//archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=ferries22m&date=20070822&query=fbi

These guys were alerted to the FBI by passengers and workers on 4-6 different ferries over the course of several weeks for being very curious of the operation of the ferry, going to parts of the ferries people donâ��t go, and taking photos of odd things like doorways, and they have not been seen since.

And some background info. The ferries run around through the Puget Sound moving people and cars daily. I donâ��t know the exact numbers, but they look like they could easily hold about 200 vehicles and a couple thousand people each. Many people use them daily for normal transportation and security is very light. Thus, an attack could be very serious. Plus, oil tankers and cruise ships are common on the same waters.

As someone who uses the ferries occasionally I'm curious what others think about this. And please don't give SC a reason to send this to rant.

AJSullivan

08/22/2007 10:29:10 AM · #2

Look, were living a in a Post-Don Imus world, so someone of terroristic descent taking pictures is down right criminal!!!

Kavey

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

08/22/2007 10:45:10 AM · #3

It may or may not be the case that suspicions were originally aroused within ferry staff more quickly because of their ethnic background. We'll never know.

However, it's quite clear to me that action has been taken by the FBI not because they are "Arab-American", as the article puts it, but because of repeatedly observed suspicious behaviour.

I'll admit that sometimes it can be difficult having an Asian face in the current climate - I'm a non-religious, London-born "British Asian" and yet the looks I got when using the London Underground system in the weeks following the bombings two years ago made me feel very vulnerable and uncomfortable.

So I'm certainly sympathetic to those who warn against superficial racial stereotyping/ profiling in an attempt to make the public think something is being done.

But, at the same time, the harsh realities are that there are bad people in the world trying to do some pretty bad things. And at the moment, there is reason to suspect certain nationalities/religious groups more than others. Not because of racist views but because that's where intelligence and recent history are pointing.

Chinabun

Canon PowerShot SD990 IS

08/22/2007 10:50:48 AM · #4

I'd say it's racial profiling, but who cares. As long as those guys aren't getting hurt physically during the process then they should expect it.

Same goes with other races. You wanna dress like a gangster or a thug then expect to get treated that way. You take a white, black, or hispanic guy and thug them up people will watch your actions.

You take the same 3 guys and dress them up, nobody will notice.

If the guys in the article are known for "spying" on our things then thats what they will get profiled as.

Edit: I dont think it's the race more of what your actions are.

Message edited by author 2007-08-22 10:51:47.

Nald

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

08/22/2007 11:01:46 AM · #5

Well I wouldn't say it's racial profiling or photographer harassment at this point based on the information at hand. What you have here is a couple of dudes who are either terrorists or aren't that smart considering the state of World events.

Like

Chinabun said, you don't go around acting or behaving like a terrorist or thug without people taking notice. If they are just innocent of being "less than intelligent" about what they were taking photos of then shame on them and hopefully lesson learned; but if it's the other case then good on Joe Public for noticing and taking some preventative action.

srdanz

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

08/22/2007 11:13:57 AM · #6

I would be pissed if my photo appeared in the newspaper article that mentions terrorists and attacks.

What's the deal with "going to areas where people don't normally go to"? Are those areas restricted? If yes, these guys could and should have been approached right then. If it is just a part of the boat where people don't normally go, who cares? Or is it that they were noticed going there just because they look like they look.

Look now, I am all for FBI investigating this all they want. They can run those images against all the CIA, NSA, and what not databases, and I would encourage them to do so. I think that it is a good idea to have transparent yet clandestine intelligence actions.

It is the newspaper article that pisses me off. What is the result? Is someone going to notice them and report them? Or are people now going to be pointing fingers and calling police for every middle-eastern person they notice on the street - likely to happen.

Does this increase the security? Probably not. But, someone thought different, and possibly for different reasons. I'll be nice to LoudDog and try not to comment otherwise to keep this thread in the general discussion section.

AJSullivan

08/22/2007 11:17:10 AM · #7

I just like how if he was a black guy hed be a criminal, if he was a white guy hed be a nerdy photographer, if he was asian hed be a tourist, but since hes middle eastern hes a terrorist.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED

08/22/2007 11:25:18 AM · #8

Originally posted by srdanz:

Does this increase the security? Probably not.

I appreciate your opinion, but on this I'd disagree. If someone recognizes them, calls the FBI and says they are my neighbors/co-workers... the FBI checks it out and they are just doing a photo series on ferries, or they are actually running a cell, I'd think we are all better off.

it's not clear in the articles i read, but I'm guessing the FBI put the photos out because they have beem looking for these guys the last week or two and couldn't find them. This story was rumored a couple weeks ago with no details available, but just fully released yesterday. So it's not like the FBI just gathered the info and put this out right away.

Originally posted by srdanz:

But, someone thought different, and possibly for different reasons. I'll be nice to LoudDog and try not to comment otherwise to keep this thread in the general discussion section.

Thanks.

justamistere

Nikon D3s

08/22/2007 11:31:56 AM · #9

THE ENEMY dujour is...

Yes, they should've informed the captain if they were doing creative photography. That being not done gives people very right to be suspicious.

yakatme

Lytro Illum Light Field Digital

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

08/22/2007 11:33:17 AM · #10

People always seem to criticize the authorities that they think take too much action when there has not yet been an incident, and when there is an incident they criticize authorities because they didn't take enough action to prevent it.

Consider the fallout if a Seattle Ferry version of 9/11 happened this week and it was later reported that the FBI and/or other appropriate authorities had not taken this investigative action of publishing these photos. 20/20 hindsight type questions would be asked relentlessly as to why they didn't use every means at their disposal to investigate what they thought could have been a threat.

It's happening today in regard the failings of investigators who had information on the hijackers but weren't diligent enough or didn't follow through as well as they could have.

doctornick

Apple iPhone 13 Pro

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/22/2007 11:44:03 AM · #11

Originally posted by yakatme:

Exactly.

LN13

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

08/22/2007 11:54:24 AM · #12

From the article:

"He said the photos appear to be of two Arab-American men."

How does he know they are American?

eamurdock

Pentax KP

Pentax FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited AF

08/22/2007 12:50:44 PM · #13

I take pictures of odd things, like doorways. So do lots of people on this site. I'm not a terrorist, nor am I ok with being treated like one.

"You wanna dress like a gangster or a thug then expect to get treated that way."

Um, in my take of the picure they're dressed very much like ordinary folks. They're only suspicious because they're taking pictures ("not of seabirds") and they're probably of middle eastern descent.

"I just like how if he was a black guy hed be a criminal, if he was a white guy hed be a nerdy photographer, if he was asian hed be a tourist, but since hes middle eastern hes a terrorist."

Bingo.

I'd like to know where the list of acceptable photographic subjects is, so I can avoid suspicion; while I'm of scottish descent I do have a beard, so I should be careful. I'll stick to flowers and puppies for the time being, just to be safe.

All snark aside, if there are parts of the ferry that need to be secured, secure them.

srdanz

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

08/22/2007 12:57:43 PM · #14

I do not believe that an average citizen is capable of discerning facial characteristics of another race.

As I said, I am all for the vigorous action of the authorities to prevent anything bad from happening. That's their purpose in life, isn't it?

Relying on public in THIS way to act is just scaremongering and has negative effects. If those guys are really planning something, don't you think that they would go in hiding after seeing their faces on TV and newsstands? Or do you think that all bad guys are idiots and that they would show up again at the terminal trying to get more info about it.

It is better to raise the color stick to orange or red, than publishing articles like this one.

I just think that people are watching too many movies and series and deciding that this is how security works. It doesn't.

Gotaka

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G IF-ED VR

08/22/2007 01:10:05 PM · #15

If you want profile people of middle-eastern descent, then go for it. However, to publicly announce that someone maybe a terrorist is completely insane. The justice motto of innocent until found guilty doesn't seem to apply anymore in this day and age. Those two men have every right to file suit against the FBI for publicly damaging their reputation, business, and life. This is a serious crime committed by the FBI which goes unnoticed and unquestioned until the rights of a white person is violated as such.

Those two men "may" have been plotting a terrorist act and it is the responsibility of the FBI to find tha tout, but again, they cannot proclaim someone as a criminal until there is legitimate proof and not hearsay from a scared crowd.

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

08/22/2007 01:12:29 PM · #16

Any decent terrorist organization shouldn't use men of middle-eastern descent as spies, really. Hot chicks in spandex body-suits make the best spies.

Gotaka

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G IF-ED VR

08/22/2007 01:14:00 PM · #17

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Any decent terrorist organization shouldn't use men of middle-eastern descent as spies, really. Hot chicks in spandex body-suits make the best spies.

only problem is they would have to dress those hot chicks in burqas :p

yakatme

Lytro Illum Light Field Digital

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

08/22/2007 01:26:16 PM · #18

Originally posted by eamurdock:

I'd like to know where the list of acceptable photographic subjects is, so I can avoid suspicion;

Greenland comes to mind. I haven't heard of any terrorism concerns over there.

But we do have serious terrorism concerns here and therefore we have to suffer the consequences. Whether those consequences are actual acts of terrorism or attempts to avert them, we have to pay the price of prior terror acts here in this country as well as many others.

It is unfortunate that innocent people have to pay these prices, but this is the reality of much of the world that we live in today.

Chinabun

Canon PowerShot SD990 IS

08/22/2007 02:25:49 PM · #19

Originally posted by eamurdock:

"You wanna dress like a gangster or a thug then expect to get treated that way."

Um, in my take of the picure they're dressed very much like ordinary folks. They're only suspicious because they're taking pictures ("not of seabirds") and they're probably of middle eastern descent.

AJSullivan

08/22/2007 02:46:22 PM · #20

I tend to dress like a thug (my standard winter gear is baggy jeans, a hooded sweatshirt, a bubble jacket, and new balances, with a brimmed woold cap or phillies fitted on to top it off. But im white, so that means I cant be a terrorist.

Gotaka

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G IF-ED VR

08/22/2007 02:50:51 PM · #21

Originally posted by Chinabun:

I was using that as an example of how they are being singled out for being middle eastern taking photos of odd things. It's the same thing with sterotyping others with the clothes they wear. I'd be suspicious too.

Originally posted by eamurdock:
"You wanna dress like a gangster or a thug then expect to get treated that way."

Um, in my take of the picure they're dressed very much like ordinary folks. They're only suspicious because they're taking pictures ("not of seabirds") and they're probably of middle eastern descent.

Only difference is that if you stereotype a gangster, it ends there. You won't be talking to him or worse comes to worse you call the cops if he/she is making trouble. But when you stereotype an entire ethnicity and lable them as terrorists, they will be sent to jail outside the US without access to his/her basic human rights. and we all know how they are treated there. And Some of them do deserve to be in jail for the safety of the rest of us, but do you really want to send an innocent person there and have that in your conscious? I hope not.

08/22/2007 03:02:39 PM · #22

I was going to post a lot of words but then realized I can sum it up in one sentence: I think we'd be pretty foolish to assume that the FBI has released everything they know about these guys.

The FBI had a lot of reasons not to release the photo and ask about these guys. Credibility, lawsuits, personal safety of these guys or people that look like them, anger from middle easterners, we can list a lot of reasons why they should not have done this. What scares me is the reasons they did release it.

08/22/2007 03:10:09 PM · #23

Originally posted by Gotaka:

But when you stereotype an entire ethnicity...

i seriously doubt that is what is happening here. I'll bet a months pay the FBI gets calls all the time about middle easterners acting strange. This is the first time that I heard of that the FBI released a photo of one of them.

As Kavey said, I'm sure people ethnicly profile all the time when they call and report stuff to the FBI. That happens, no doubt. The FBI filters that stuff and acts on what they think is a real threat. I think it's very dangerous for us to think we are smarter then the FBI and dismiss something like this as just racial profiling.

JawnyRico