Crappy attitude about wedding photography

08/19/2007 04:37:13 PM · #26

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

I've seen brides spend $10-15 thousand on a wedding only to have their little sister capture this once in a lifetime deal on a P&S 'because they can't afford a photographer'. No, it's because they don't place much value on photography.

Why worry about them? Hundreds upon hundreds of people get married daily. I dunno about you, but I don't want those clients. And, if they have a choice between a dedicated amateur (wanna-be pro) or thiner sister, the amateur has more to gain.

Now, I knew you'd be here spouting off about this and that and why do it for free.. well, I guess you were born a "pro" huh? I don't know if it's true, but my assumption on how you act is that you are threatened by amateurs, that you might somehow lose work to them. Why? If you can produce better work than them, you can demand the work from the couples that do respect photography. Let Joe or Jill have the other wedding. You (nor I) have nothing to gain by telling that amateur photographer that they are unable to shoot that wedding. However, that photographer has a world to gain from our experience.

Comparatively, it's those other photographers that allow you to charge more for higher end clients. If, as I said earlier, the B&G trust a photog that doesn't have a portfolio, they aren't looking for the creme of the crop to shoot for them.

Everyone starts somewhere. None of us are born with a camera in our hands.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/19/2007 05:16:14 PM · #27

It's your reputation, your friend - go do as you please. But if you ask my advice....well, if you're posting in a forum I frequent that is exactly what you are doing, isn't it? So don't complain when you don't agree with the advice - you asked for it!

I have several issues...perhaps one is I place a value, a definition, on professionalism. Many do not - be that the consumer or the pro.

Anybody can go buy a camera and call themselves a wedding photographer and get a consumer to pay them. That does not make them a wedding photographer, a professional photographer or capable of delivering the product. Very few brides are repeat customers so it's easy to be a bad wedding photographer and stay in business.

What it often does is put substandard (average or worse) work out there dubbed as 'professional'. Now Mr and Mrs Smith got screwed on their wedding photos, so when they have kid and want pics where are they going to go? Sears or JCPenney or no place perhaps. They got burned by their wedding photographer so all pros get branded with the same 'used car salesman' stigma of fly by night, untrained, unreliable, etc.

Most brides book their wedding 6 to 12 months in advance. And order their album 6 months after the wedding. Is Jill Photographer gonna be around in 6 to 12 months when the wedding date arrives? What about 6 months, or 2 years later when they finally order their album? Who gets screwed if she's not? The B&G sure, but the whole field of professional photographers that take their craft, art, profession seriously and want to earn a living at it get a black eye.

I've spent considerable time, effort and money to learn what I know, and am willing to help others learn too. Pay it forward if you will. Perhaps that is the wrong attitude - maybe I should take and take and keep all I know a secret and perhaps even give out false and misleading info! Wouldn't that would be more in my personal self interest?

"Weddings are easy! Any camera will work, flash is all auto anyway! The bigma (50-500) is the best wedding lens every - you can get in close and still do fairly wide group shots. Backup? Why? Cameras are soooo reliable these days you'll be fine. Everyone is so happy they're smiling all day, and for posing -just say 'look at me!' and you're on your way to making a fortune. Albums? Nah, a waste of time - give them CD, i'm sure they'll be more than happy with that!"

I know different. And I have nothing to gain by telling them so. It's not as if that bride was going to hire me instead. I got into weddings cause I know brides that got, umm, disappointed, by what they got for wedding photography. So excuse me for wanting to (still) protect brides from, well it is bad photographers, bad decisions or just themselves?

You want to shoot a flower or a building or a deer? GO for it! You won't disappoint anyone, or ruin someone's day, dreams or friendship if the images aren't all everyone dreams them to be.

doctornick

Apple iPhone 13 Pro

08/19/2007 05:38:33 PM · #28

08/19/2007 06:23:38 PM · #29

Originally posted by Melethia:

I've learned that if I'm ever asked to shoot a wedding, I certainly won't mention it here.

:-)

You are exactly right Melethia. I regret ever mentioning that I've done my first wedding because I've been crucified over it. I can't get a fair shake for the people who are "professional" here.

It doesn't matter that I have said that the B&G were happy with the photos. Even the mother in law was happy with them. None of the mistakes that I made were major just small adjustments that I should have made in a couple of situations. That's it. Now get off my back. Most of you have made me feel as if I failed and you know nothing about that day or the photos that were taken. I did the wedding for practically nothing since it was officially my first one by myself.

Just to give you a bit of background on me, I have been involved with weddings for several years. I started in the hotel business, went on to the catering business and for the last 10 year or so, I have done a couple of weddings in there (insert sarcasm if you didn't notice already). Now I'm trying to be on the photography end of it. I understand the timing, the preparation, the involvement of all parties involved that go into pulling off a wedding. So I do know a thing or two about weddings.

Here's my main lesson I have learned, don't ask for advice from the members of DPC. Well at least from some. Don't post in forums. (this will probably be my last). Trust no one! Why, because they make you feel that you are stepping on their toes and doing to invade their territory and take business away from them or give them a bad name. Heaven forbid you say DPC is a learning site because now I'm learning to hate it. So I hope you all feel really good about yourselves in putting someone like me down. I just didn't buy a camera yesterday. I just didn't find out where the button to push to make the pretty picture. I don't think I'm a professional. (The B&G were fully aware of my experience level but still asked me to do their wedding) But its what I'm working towards.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Its like the old adage, how can you get experience without the job or the job without experience.

Am I going to be around in 6 to 12 month if someone books with me, YES I AM. Want to know why? Because this is what I like, no love to do. I hate the job I have now but it pays the bills. Do I want to exclusively be a wedding photographer? No, I don't.

And Spazmo99....my mother is proud of what I have been able and going to accomplish. You're a jerk for saying something like that.

Message edited by author 2007-08-19 18:27:08.

08/19/2007 06:36:07 PM · #30

Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

Do I want to exclusively be a wedding photographer? No, I don't.

Me either... ick! :-)

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/19/2007 06:52:42 PM · #31

Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

Not to pick on you, but you state some very simple things that seem to get glossed over.

You charged them, right? That alone makes you a professional - you got paid. Didn't get paid much? That makes you a bad business person.

When you worked in the hotel field, etc,did you work for free or low pay the first day? Did you hire people and tell them no pay till they know how to do the job well? Or did you most likely get/pay 90% of the regular wage from day one?

Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

So I hope you all feel really good about yourselves in putting someone like me down. I just didn't buy a camera yesterday. I just didn't find out where the button to push to make the pretty picture. I don't think I'm a professional. (The B&G were fully aware of my experience level but still asked me to do their wedding) But its what I'm working towards.

I am glad your working toward improving. Why did the B&G choose you? They loved your work? Then charge for that! Or did they pick you cause, um, you were cheap and available?

To all who shoot photos for money: If you're going to do the work, then get the proper price. If you're not worth the proper price, then perhaps you shouldn't be charging at all. If "they" won't pay you the proper price, then why is it your responsibility to work for cheap? Again, are you wanting to open a charity for the photo-deprived?

Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

Everyone has to start somewhere. Its like the old adage, how can you get experience without the job or the job without experience.

//www.ovation-images.com/
He shot 24 weddings as a FREE second shooter. He is shooting at least 6 more this year that way. For 6 different photographers. Yesterday he shot his second as THE photographer.
You can be a trained, seasoned succsful person - in photography or anything - but IT TAKES TIME AND EFFORT! I don't see many people willing to do that - it's 'I got a camera and someone asked me and now I'm going to be pro wedding photogrpaher!' - Overnight sensation's are RARE.

Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

Am I going to be around in 6 to 12 month if someone books with me, YES I AM. Want to know why? Because this is what I like, no love to do. I hate the job I have now but it pays the bills. Do I want to exclusively be a wedding photographer? No, I don't.

If you charge a fair price, yes. Fair to yourself that is. I want a Ferrari but guess what? They aren't selling me one for $50 just because I asked. Just because I offer you $500 to shoot a wedding doesn't mean you have to accept it.

Advice for success:
Do some research - what are photogs in your area charging for weddings, and what are they giving for that money (album brands, sizes, hours, etc). Find an average and set up your pricing to be a bit below that (10-15%). See how that goes. If you're not screwing up the sales presentation, then you should book 60-70% of your prospects. Booking 90%? Raise your prices. Less than 50%? Ask them WHY they didn't pick you - and work on fixing that. It isn't price alone (could be a small album, no samples, no confidence on your part).

Need experience? Simple - join PPA or at least find the local PPA and go ask the members - "I want to second shoot weddings, assist - learn! I'll work for free". Pay your dues, so to speak. Learn WHY things are sold as they are, priced as they are. The extra knowledge won't hurt you, I promise!

When you then get to meeting with brides you can say "Yes, I shot a reception at the mariott - they have that nice courtyard for pics" or "Such and Such park is wonderful in early june, the lake in BG is great"

You'll be worth $2500/wedding next year, instead of 3 or 4 years and with a reputation for being cheap.

As I said, many don't like to year 'pay your dues' or the like. They don't like to hear 'your too cheap'.

Isn't that what we tell our kids, but phrased differently? GO to college, pay your dues, and get a good paying job.
Do you really think photography is any different?

Message edited by author 2007-08-19 18:53:10.

Travis99

Canon EOS-5D

08/19/2007 07:00:07 PM · #32

Prof

Dude, DWF. I'm telling you, DWF

08/19/2007 07:00:55 PM · #33

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Do I want to exclusively be a wedding photographer? No, I don't.

Me either... ick! :-)

Well....why not? (not that i want to be either, but here are some REAL numbers)

I've loooked at buying a couple of photography studios. Typical middle class suburban places that do HS seniors, a few weddings, family ports, etc. $175-225k a year in gross income. Photog, sometimes wife or other fill time person, and some part time/seasonal help.
Owner gets...are you ready? 15% on average. That's $25-40k a year. For full time plus work. That sucks IMO.

My friend that started his wedding biz last week (officially launched the site, did a bridal show, etc) plans to run a weddings only biz from his home and be grossing 100k in sales in 3 years. Wants to net 70k. Now that's more like it!
How? Not with $600 weddings, that's for sure!
30-35 weddings at $3000-3500/wedding. $15,000 overhead costs and $500/wedding in variable costs. All very realistic numbers.

He's referred some non-wedding work my way and it's nice to have the variety, but it's also a lot more work to have pricing, equipment and the like for a wider variety of photographic specialties.

klstover

Panasonic DMC-FZ8

08/19/2007 07:01:36 PM · #34

I can't believe that some people are going to tell other people what they should and should not charge... I mean to have opinions, even strong opinions, is fine, but to say "oh my goodness there is just ONE SINGLE way to do this and OH NO you're damaging the ENTIRE PHOTOGRAPHY PROFESSION!!!" is just, um, insane.

edit: Oh yeah, and is it possible that SOME people ACTUALLY can't afford things, instead of just not placing a high priority on it?

Message edited by author 2007-08-19 19:03:36.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/19/2007 07:02:10 PM · #35

Originally posted by Travis99:

Prof

Dude, DWF. I'm telling you, DWF

Don't tell me- tell them! LOL

Travis99

Canon EOS-5D

08/19/2007 07:03:56 PM · #36

They wont listen..

08/19/2007 07:04:56 PM · #37

Ya know Prof...I get it. You win.

08/19/2007 07:15:14 PM · #38

Originally posted by klstover:

What should I charge? is seen as a thread title how often?

Business is business, whether it is selling photos or poodles, fixing cars or pushing big macs. Taxes, rent, phones, insurance - planning, management, pricing, planning - are all needed.
You have to make enough money to pay the bills, pay for the cameras, the prints, and yourself.

You want to open a hamburger stand and sell a meal for $1.50 with a coke? GO ahead, you may have a line of people wanting to eat, but you'll be out of business in no time.

Open a gas station and sell gas for $1.50/gallon. I mean, there are lots of people that can't afford $3/gallon, so go help them out! You can't do that for long, you'll lose money and be broke.

Ever wonder why wedding photogrpahers charge $2000 for a wedding? You were thinking greed, right? No, not quite. Some (bambi, buissink, etc) are the rolls royce/ferrari/BMW of wedding photographers and do get very high fees for what they do, but they're not greedy either. They could shoot a wedding for $600 too...but they CHOOSE not to.

YOU have a choice too. GO ahead, ask $2500 for a wedding. If they don't pay it then what? Does you life end? Does that mean you suck as a photographer? No. Rejection is part of life, and a LARGE part of sales. You may think of yourself as a photographer, but until you SELL someone your services you're not a professional photographer.

2 years ago I was charging about $1000. I was asked all kinds of insulting questions ( do you have backup? do you have insurance? what if you get sick?}
My last wedding booked at $2800. I showed the SAME SAMPLES as I did 2 years ago. I got NO questions like that above. I have better lenses, but the same cameras, the same face, the same location...and I am giving them the same amount of 'stuff' - in hours, albums, etc, as before.

What changed? I learned to ask for more money! And damn, they pay it!

Anyone ever refuse a raise? Ask the boss for less money? Take the lower paying job? Then why do it with your photography?

08/19/2007 07:20:27 PM · #39

Originally posted by klstover:

I can't afford to eat at Outback, or a new Lexus. I buy my clothes at WalMart not Macys.

I also met with a bride that was getting married at a very exclusing location, showed me her new BMW convertible, talked about her honeymoon to the caribean and then asked for my cheapest package and said that was too much.

I know of a reception hall that charges $58/plate and one that charges $36/plate. 200 guests... $11,600 vs $7,200. a Limo is $700 (or more). If cost is an issue, then lose the limo, pick the cheaper venue, or find a free church (one here gets $1500 for 2 hours use for a wedding, another get $200).

Again, if you want to be a charity then so be it. I don't think the caterer or florist or DJ feel that way, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Or is it the mentality of 'If I don't charge much then they won't be too mad if something goes wrong (or is less than they expected, etc)'?

Show them samples, be consistent and they'll be happy.

Message edited by author 2007-08-19 19:26:26.

08/19/2007 07:24:50 PM · #40

Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:

Ya know Prof...I get it. You win.

All it takes is a little confidence in yourself and I think you have that in other areas of your life so now just extend that to the photography!

08/19/2007 07:29:20 PM · #41

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Well....why not? (not that i want to be either, but here are some REAL numbers)

I've loooked at buying a couple of photography studios.

Don't get me wrong, I love shooting people, but owning a studio is the furthest thing from my mind. That's even ickier. Talking about BORING and then ya got to compete with Walmart, nevermind amateurs, you get amateurs with Walmart backing. Who can compete with that? Who'd really want to? I don't even want that overhead.

Look at Chase Jarvis, all location. That's where I want to be, not couped up in a studio. Studio does not equal good photographer. I haven't done a "studio" shoot in nearly two months and that makes me quite happy.

As far as the weddings go, yes, it's fun, it's challenging and it's good money. We both know that. But when I get to the point I'm shooting more than 25 of them a year, nooo... that would suck all the creative juices out of any photographer, leaving him shooting on autopilot.

I think if you get to a point where you are booking lots of weddings (or anything), you need to increase your prices, rather than book more weddings. You'll accomplish your goals of making more money without busting your ass. If you're that good, where you are booking that much, people are still going to pay to get you.

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

08/19/2007 07:30:15 PM · #42

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Ya know Prof...I get it. You win.

All it takes is a little confidence in yourself and I think you have that in other areas of your life so now just extend that to the photography!

I did have confidence until you pointed out that i'm just a hick with a camera trying to be a professional.

David Ey

Nikon D80

08/19/2007 07:30:49 PM · #43

Originally posted by ursula:

He, he, I just signed up for my very first wedding on September 1!

Can I help? I just got a D80.....haven't worked the shutter yet, only been 4 days, but I'd like to help for free.

(we love ya Bucky)

Message edited by author 2007-08-19 19:32:36.

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

08/19/2007 07:34:49 PM · #44

Never mind Ursula, weddings are too depressing. I'm going for funerals.

Fujifilm XF 55-200mm f/3.5-4.8 R LM OIS

08/19/2007 07:37:30 PM · #45

Originally posted by David Ey:

Never mind Ursula, weddings are too depressing. I'm going for funerals.

LOL, I haven't figured out how to get paid to shoot those :-)

It's a real dead market... *boos at self*

ursula

Fujifilm X-T2

08/19/2007 07:38:36 PM · #46

Originally posted by David Ey:

Originally posted by ursula:
He, he, I just signed up for my very first wedding on September 1!

Can I help? I just got a D80.....haven't worked the shutter yet, only been 4 days, but I'd like to help for free.

(we love ya Bucky)

He, he, I posted that before reading the rest of the story :) Should have read first. [ursula shakes head]

ursula

Fujifilm X-T2

Fujifilm XF 55-200mm f/3.5-4.8 R LM OIS

08/19/2007 07:39:14 PM · #47

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Originally posted by David Ey:
Never mind Ursula, weddings are too depressing. I'm going for funerals.

LOL, I haven't figured out how to get paid to shoot those :-)

It's a real dead market... *boos at self*

But at least the subject holds still. [ursula ducks out of sight]

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

08/19/2007 07:45:52 PM · #48

Originally posted by Melethia:

I've learned that if I'm ever asked to shoot a wedding, I certainly won't mention it here.

Shoot, I think I come away from this thread learning that if they can't afford 20K for photography, they probably don't deserve to get married.

You know, there are people in this world that cannot afford more than 5 or 6 hundred for wedding pictures. (For real. They exist. They are not exaggerating or trying to cheat you out of $9,500.)

I do not "advertise" myself as a wedding photographer. Heck, I don't advertise myself as a photographer. It is a side venture for me. I figure I'll photograph all the bread crumbs that ya'll who are more worthy drop and don't want to waste your time on.

Somebody has to take their picture. Am I degrading you or the profession? No, because believe it or not, if they can't afford your $10K package, or even your $5K one (and I actually do offer a package of this size, if forced to consult with a potential bride), and there is nothing in their price range, they will get great aunt bertha and her polaroid. You get what you pay for. Even if it is just me. :)

Oh, and to date, I have yet to have an unhappy bride or even bride's mother.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/19/2007 07:49:25 PM · #49

Any chance that somewhere amidst the insanity we're actually going to see some of Buckeye's work?