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08/08/2007 12:31:53 PM · #101

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:

What are the TONS of cheating other than steroids?

Relaying a catchers sign to a batter is not cheating. It is the job of the catcher to either 1. hide your signs and hide them well. or 2. use indicators or sequences to hide your sign.

Stealing signs is a part of baseball. Anytime a runner makes it to 2nd base, they can see the catcher clearly. That is not cheating, the pitcher and catcher just need to be smarter.

Game throwing, gambling etc.. please state your source. Please don't use Pete Rose as your only gambling source. Everyone knows he bet on baseball.

Bribery, Cheating, Drugs, Gambling: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_scandals

1951 Giants: (SIGN STEALING)
Last year, the Giants admitted they had an elaborate sign-stealing system in place at the Polo Grounds in 1951. Did it help them erase the 13Â½-game lead the Dodgers had in August? Did Bobby Thomson know what Ralph Branca was throwing when he hit his "Shot heard around the world?" Those questions are unanswerable, even by Thomson, who exhibited Clintonesque qualities when questioned by the Wall Street Journal. "I'd have to say more no than yes," he said, then equivocated some more before finally saying that no, he didn't steal the sign for that pitch.
But there's no doubt that the Giants cheated. Coach Herman Franks would sit in the Giants clubhouse, conveniently located past center field, and use a telescope to read the catcher's signs. He'd then set off a bell or buzzer in the Giants bullpen that would identify the next pitch, and a relay man would signal it in to the hitter.

Albert Belle (CORKED BATS)
On July 15, 1994, Belle's bat was confiscated by umpire Dave Phillips after White Sox manager Gene Lamont voiced his suspicion that the bat was corked. The Indians knew it was corked, and set out to replace the bat, which Phillips had put in his locker. During the game, Indians pitcher Jason Grimsley wriggled through a crawl space above the ceiling above the umpires' locker room, dropped through an escape hatch, and replaced the corked model with a conventional one. "My heart was going 1,000 miles a second," said Grimsley. "I just rolled the dice, a crapshoot." But the caper was easily found out -- the faux Belle model Grimsley had put in Phillips locker had Paul Sorrento's name on it. Belle was suspended for seven games. In his autobiography, released just a few weeks ago, former Belle teammate Omar Vizquel wrote about the "Batgate" incident: "I can be naive at times, but I'm not stupid. Certainly not stupid enough to steal Albert's corked bat and replace it with one that looked completely different -- one that was autographed by Paul Sorrento. That wasn't even a nice try. The problem, of course, was that all of Albert's bats were corked."

The Bossard Family - Indians/Whitesoxs
They were the grounds keepers and would "rig" the field to give their team the advantage. A lot of what they did benefited both teams In a way, but still an outside force changing the game.

//espn.go.com/page2/s/list/cheaters/ballplayers.html

Hell, jsut search CHEATING IN BASEBALL, and see what comes up.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

08/08/2007 12:32:25 PM · #102

I got up this morning and got the news paper from the porch and on the front page was the Juice Monster. I walked right over to my trash can and threw it away. Not a record to me...

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08/08/2007 01:04:00 PM · #103

those cheating articles were funny as hell. I must note that most were done by unimportant players and only offered an advantage for the day and a small advantage at that.

I really liked the groundscrew story.

I still feel that stealing signs even by a telescope is not really cheating. Hide your signs!! Teams use lipreaders now, notice how all confrences on the mound they all cover their mouths with their glove. Still everytime a runner makes it to second base, they can see the signs. Cathers need to use sequences like 3 sign in is the pitch or indicators like the sign after xxx is the pitch. I would think that sign stealing is almost as much of a disadvantage as an advantage. IF you are wrong and expecting a curve ball and instead you get a 95MPH fastball, there is little recovering.

Show me a day to day year in year out cheater like Bonds. There are none, he is the worst.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

08/08/2007 01:05:49 PM · #104

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:

It doesn't matter if Bonds ever admits his steroid use. It will be evidently clear once he retires and his body/mind start to deteriorate.

One could make a reasonable case that the process has already started ... ;-)

08/08/2007 02:33:51 PM · #105

I just heard an interesting commentary on the way back from lunch...

It was a SanFran sports writer, and he was saying this:

People act like Bonds is the only one using (if he is). Bonds is facing pitchers that are using and its a widespread epidemic. So if a performance enhanced hitter hits a homer off a performance enhanced pitcher, then that is a level playing field right?!

And also...teams throwing the World Series is 1000000000000 times worse then Bonds hitting some homeruns. Thats just a fact. Records are nice, but championships are forever, nobody can take those from you.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

08/08/2007 02:34:30 PM · #106

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
It doesn't matter if Bonds ever admits his steroid use. It will be evidently clear once he retires and his body/mind start to deteriorate.

One could make a reasonable case that the process has already started ... ;-)

I dont even think it has, I think he has the expected wear and tear that a guy would have after 21 seasons of 160+ games and the road life.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/08/2007 02:48:07 PM · #107

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:

Teams use lipreaders now, notice how all confrences on the mound they all cover their mouths with their glove.

Back in the day, for 3 years I photographed Chargers games (NFL) from the sidelines. When the coach found out I was a skilled lipreader, he put me to work deciphering the other team's communications occasionally. Now, in football, the coaches use their clipboards to mask their lips. I like to think it's because of me :-)

R.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

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08/08/2007 02:48:55 PM · #108

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Teams use lipreaders now, notice how all confrences on the mound they all cover their mouths with their glove.

Back in the day, for 3 years I photographed Chargers games (NFL) from the sidelines. When the coach found out I was a skilled lipreader, he put me to work deciphering the other team's communications occasionally. Now, in football, the coaches use their clipboards to mask their lips. I like to think it's because of me :-)

R.

That is super cool! Bear the secret weapon...

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08/08/2007 02:51:33 PM · #109

You are right that throwing a world series is worse. That happened in 1919 and the 8 players were thrown out of baseball. Even Joe Jackson who had an amazing world series was thrown out for suspicion. Where is that kind of justice today? Throw Bonds out just on suspicion.

He has wear and tear now, but what I was talking about was when he retires and the level of activity and workouts drop off. How will he deny his steroid use when he starts developing tumors and his kidney adn liver fail at a very early age? that is the deterioration Im talking about.

Take a look at retired bodybuilders and WWF wrestlers.

That San Fran writer is trying to justify the unjustifiable. Anyone should be thrown out of baseball for steroids.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

08/08/2007 02:59:45 PM · #110

Originally posted by ajdelaware:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
It doesn't matter if Bonds ever admits his steroid use. It will be evidently clear once he retires and his body/mind start to deteriorate.

One could make a reasonable case that the process has already started ... ;-)

I dont even think it has, I think he has the expected wear and tear that a guy would have after 21 seasons of 160+ games and the road life.

I was referring primarily to the "mind" component of the equation ;-)

08/08/2007 03:23:53 PM · #111

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:

And how will we determine who is on them and who isnt?!?!? Bonds has never tested positive for any PES. So should we just throw out everyone who has consecutive good seasons and muscles?

Hell, Ryan Howard set a record for the Phils last year, and he isnt nearly hitting as many this year. Should we then assume that he was on Steroids?

AROD is having a bang up year, throw him out!

What happens when the likeable players become the accused? I guarantee they wont get nearly the beating that Bonds has gotten.

Hell Giambi ADMITTED it, and people arent storming NYC to burn him at the stake.

08/08/2007 04:16:16 PM · #112

When has bonds tested negative for steroids? How many of the mentioned players have personal trainers in jail for refusing to testify whether their clients have been using or not?

There is 1 ultimate defense to slander and libel, its the truth. If Bonds' personal trainer could say that Bonds was clean and it was truthful he wouldn't be in jail. Im sure his trainer and his trainer's family will be very very looked after once he is released for not talking.

Any of the nice players would face the same fire if they were suspected of using AND breaking one of the most iconic record in sports.

there is no testing and no sound policy so technically he hasn't broken any rules. I want to see a sound testing policy w/ a 1 strike your out punishment and as a yankee fan I would happily see Arod thrown out of baseball along w/ Giambi. I wouldn't care if Jeter was tossed if he used.

This isn't a case of me being biased towards Bonds because he isn't that likeable. I really don't care how many times he has cheated on his wife or yelled at low level clubhouse workers or his antics in the press. Hell, I like Ty Cobb and he was a bastard. This is about cheating in baseball. Hes not even cheating to make his team win, hes cheating for a solo record for career HRs. If this was about making his team win, he wouldn't have given up the ability to steal bases or be a fast outfielder for the ability to hit the long ball. At least spitballs and sign stealing are for the benefit of the team.

08/08/2007 04:29:31 PM · #113

So what youre saying is that if Bonds didnt break that record, say he only had 700 career home runs and retired, the fact that he used steroids isnt as bad?

And that seems to be the main argument in most peoples cases. But its whatever.

Im not saying the guy didnt use steroids, I dontk now if he did or didnt, and the only people that do know, are him and maybe his trainer. Im saying that until they can prove it with less then HE SAID SHE SAID bs, then the guy gets his record, gets his HoF spot (in due time) and should have the press off of his ass.

Im sure he wanted this record for the sense of accomplishment, and I guarantee hes glad its done with and out of the way so now people will just leave him a lone and let him ride off into the sunset.

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08/08/2007 04:57:40 PM · #114

im not saying it wouldn't be as bad, but because of this record and the chase for the record, he is in the media hotspot. The other players are just as bad, but off the media radar until they approach a record.

I agree, it is he said she said, but if Selig manned up it wouldn't be.

There is a chance at no hall of fame for him. McGwire didn't come close on his first attempt and he broke Roger Maris record. Reason being is the obvious and almost comical steroid induced massive body he had for that season. He looked like the Incredible Hulk w/ a little less green that year.

At least the legacy of records are how they are passed down through generations to come. My Dad told me stories of Roger Maris and Mickey Mantles run and we will tell our kids about Bonds run. Barry's record and steroids will always be connected. Any movie made will include steroids, as with books and articles. His record even if it stands w/o punishment will always be tainted. You cannot tell the story of Barry Bonds without mentioning steroid use/speculation. I guess thats good enough for me until something definative is proven.

And the greatest part of this record... Barry knows the truth. Barry will have to shake hands with Hank Aaron and other greats. Once he retires he will be at old timers games and other events where he will feel all the eyes on him for cheating a great record. Even in old age, Ty Cobb felt remorse for the things he did.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

08/09/2007 05:37:26 AM · #115

Originally posted by ajdelaware:

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
You are right that throwing a world series is worse. That happened in 1919 and the 8 players were thrown out of baseball. Even Joe Jackson who had an amazing world series was thrown out for suspicion. Where is that kind of justice today? Throw Bonds out just on suspicion.

He has wear and tear now, but what I was talking about was when he retires and the level of activity and workouts drop off. How will he deny his steroid use when he starts developing tumors and his kidney adn liver fail at a very early age? that is the deterioration Im talking about.

Take a look at retired bodybuilders and WWF wrestlers.

That San Fran writer is trying to justify the unjustifiable. Anyone should be thrown out of baseball for steroids.

And how will we determine who is on them and who isnt?!?!? Bonds has never tested positive for any PES. So should we just throw out everyone who has consecutive good seasons and muscles?

No. Just throw out the ones who:

1) have friends in jail refusing to testify against them and their involvement with steroids.
2) have their trainer indicted for steroids involvement.
3) have other players (Sheffield, Canseco) say you used steroids.
4) have books about them detailing your steriod use and you're not suing them.
5) have admitted to using a steriod to a grand jury.

Heck, just throw out the ones where everyone in the free world except San Fran knows you're using.

Message edited by author 2007-08-09 05:50:26.

08/09/2007 09:41:25 AM · #116

Last night on either Sportscenter or Baseball Tonight they had their daily online/phone poll. The question last night was, "Who do you consider to be the career home run king? A. Hank Aaron B. Barry Bonds.
54% said Hank Aaron.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Talk about a slap in the face, what kind of question is that.

08/09/2007 10:27:12 AM · #117

Yeah, and Bush got reelected for a 2nd term...voters are idiots hahaha.

I did here Jim Rome refer to steroids (on a seperate topic) as Baroids yesterday, and I chuckled.

08/09/2007 11:44:35 AM · #118

I don't think the voters were idiots, I was surprised by the question. Barry Bonds has the record, no one can take it away (yet). For a sportscaster to even ask it was amazingly insulting to Barry.

Bush also didn't cheat as bad as Barry (hahahah).

Although hysterical and I would have loved to be sitting with Barry watching that, I even thought it was a low blow. They could have asked a ton of different questions to get that result. They could have said, "do you think the record is tainted?" "do you think there should be an * in the record?" "is barry bonds good for baseball?" etc. etc.

Instead they just ask who you consider the HR king. Thats like asking who you consider president? Al Gore or GW.

Most of those questions don't have a right answer, like when they ask who is the most dangerous player in the AL?

Not last night, there was a right and a wrong answer and 54% of voters got it wrong.

F&*% Barry.

08/09/2007 11:50:20 AM · #119

Barry Bonds is the home run king right now. Ohhhh well.

jonnienye

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08/10/2007 10:54:49 AM · #120

if a tree falls in the woods.......

GeneralE

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08/10/2007 11:04:47 AM · #121

As Ray Ratto, SF sportswriter pointed out, Cap Anson, the man primarily responsible for baseball maintaining its "color line" until 1947, is in the Hall of Fame.

Compared to Bonds' possible steroid use, which action was more detrimental to baseball and society?

08/10/2007 11:41:32 AM · #122

i think its different. Only signing white players was how MLB operated. It was widespread and heavily supported by some owners. this guy being the last person to maintain the color line just makes him an asshole bigot. I think this is more detrimental to society than to baseball as a whole.

I think the rampant unchecked or pathetically checked cheating via steroids is worse. The fact that Selig seems to accept it and is failing to monitor it is going to tear baseball apart.

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08/10/2007 12:24:04 PM · #123

If it is unchecked by the league, and was legal up until 91, then how is Bonds at fault then, if he did indeed use them. Its only cheating if you get caught!

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

08/10/2007 12:27:00 PM · #124

Originally posted by ajdelaware:

Its only cheating if you get caught!

You're kidding right?