Cultural Differences - DPChallenge Forums

08/02/2007 02:19:08 PM · #26

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

To the idea of anything that happens by anyone (or even everyone) here on DPC being representative of a "national attitude"...

WTF???

Get over yourself, Matthew - you have issues.

Hey - I used t really like you. I am not sure what I have done to provoke what is fairly unmistakeably a personal attack.

I have consistently tried to point out that what DrA said "could be interpreted" as arrogance - tried to explain viewpoints. I don't think that it is arrogance, but that the phraseology was unfortunate and easily misconstrued - as Ed appeared to do.

I am amazed if you think that English and American cultures are not sufficiently different to cause the odd confusion over and above the lack of comms possible through text alone: I think that it happened here. I really don't know why that is an unreasonable opinion to reach.

I am sure that it is something of which you are oblivious, because there is no reason for it to be reported in the US, but it is broadly regarded here as an Americanisation of culture that people must have value found about them. Maybe that feeling is unduly reinforced by watching unrepresentative American media, like American idol, where the American judges are fairly consistently incapable of giving a harsh judgment. But rather than calling me out as having "issues", maybe you would like to explain why I am mistaken?

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

08/02/2007 02:24:34 PM · #27

Originally posted by KaDi:

Are you bragging about your country? You sound rather arrogant to me. :)

The population of the US is about 5 times larger than the UK. The US covers appx. 3.7 million square miles versus the UK's 50k. We're large and diverse. We may seem like one culture to you but we're not.

Is arrogance more acceptable "here" than "there"? I doubt it.
Is it bragging if you're just explaining how you achieved success? I don't think so.
If people in the US are culturally bound it probably lies in our belief in individuality and the freedom to express it. That includes expressing and accepting criticism in my experience.

I have travelled through large parts of the US and love the country. Open speaking can very easily be seen as one great trait where the UK lags behind for these very reasons.

I assure you that I meant that some of the statements could be interpreted in England as arrogance - as indeed in part it appears to have been done. Not knowing every American personally (as you say, there are a lot of them) I really don't pretend to say that no American can read those statements in the same way, nor put all of them into exactly the same mould. I was making some very general, non specific, observations.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/02/2007 02:28:06 PM · #28

I think the problem with Doc's original post is *context* and *timing*; the Ribbon Hogs have just finished annihilating the competition in DPL (results of the last challenge are just a formality) and the thread goes into great detail on how this team of uber-photographers worked together and egged each other on to greater and greater heights.

They have the right to do this, no question about it. We on 20D, and presumably many (if not most) of the other teams discussed and critiqued our images as well. I think it's great that this avenue is open for learning and growing. I have no problem with it.

But I'm not surprised that some DPCers felt the thread amounted to tasteless gloating. That was my first reaction as well, as one of their most recent victims. But I got over that pretty quick :-) I think it could have gone over a lot better a couple of weeks from now, if you know what I mean?

Jason and the rest of the Hogs, congratulations on your absolute triumph this season!

R.

08/02/2007 02:31:16 PM · #29

Originally posted by karmat:

Perhaps Jason did offend in what appeared to be bragging, but I don't think it (the offense) is related to where you are sitting. I largely suspect it has to do more with your overall opinion of him (or any poster).

I assure you that I have a very high opinion of DrA and did not assume that he was bragging or being arrogant. Again: I was trying to explain why some people may have taken offence at his words and supposed that there may be some element of cultural difference.

Originally posted by karmat:

As far as the thread being locked, what you can't see is that there are several posts at the very end where people were just taking the opportunity to call each other juvenile names. That was a large reason for it being locked -- it was no longer discussing the Jason's process, or even the merits of it, it was simply turning into a bash-fest. And that is never necessary.)

Yup - I did not know. I would be interested to know who the targets were.

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 14:41:37.

08/02/2007 02:32:39 PM · #30

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

To the idea of anything that happens by anyone (or even everyone) here on DPC being representative of a "national attitude"...

WTF???

Get over yourself, Matthew - you have issues.

I am very happy to be proven wrong and that the thousands of Americans I have met are unrepresentative of their country: they tend to be more proud of success, more willing to tolerate it, more impressed and inspired by it than many English people I have met where the national character that I have observed is a little more cynical.

All those stories of American free spirit, freedom to succeed (things that I admire about the American psyche - which I had mistakenly assumed to have some commonality, revolving around certain ideals recorded in your very founding), are obviously wrong and you are just like us. Thanks for putting me straight.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

08/02/2007 02:36:28 PM · #31

Originally posted by hopper:

my posts are regarding what "may" have happened to cause a thread to get locked

i don't think Jason is arrogant

i wasn't "bagging" anyone

i'm not projecting

Yeah - that's all I tried to do because I know Ed E301, who is a great guy, and was sure that there was a miscommunication. It seems that I have managed to rile up a lot more people (and be riled) by trying to point out some of the issues.

KaDi

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

08/02/2007 02:42:54 PM · #32

It's not that there are no cultural differences between the US and UK because there certainly are. This just may not be one of them.

Perhaps this is just one of those individual differences? Maybe some of us resent your making sweeping generalizations about American culture? Maybe it looks like your saying that because you and e301 spoke out in a thread against something and you didn't see support for that view from the Americans on the site that you can just lump everyone into the same basket?

Don't really care for your "very general, non specific, observations." It smacks of xenophobic prejudice.

And for the record, not only have I never watched American Idol or any other show of it's ilk, I base all of my opinions about Brits on Benny Hill and Dark Adder re-runs along with the cultural knowledge gleaned from 19th c. British novels. ;-P

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/02/2007 02:47:07 PM · #33

Originally posted by Matthew:

Hey - I used t really like you. I am not sure what I have done to provoke what is fairly unmistakeably a personal attack.

You're right - I should have said "Brits have issues" - ok just kidding - can't help that sometimes.

Originally posted by Matthew:

I have consistently tried to point out that what DrA said "could be interpreted" as arrogance - tried to explain viewpoints. I don't think that it is arrogance, but that the phraseology was unfortunate and easily misconstrued - as Ed appeared to do.

I am amazed if you think that English and American cultures are not sufficiently different to cause the odd confusion over and above the lack of comms possible through text alone: I think that it happened here. I really don't know why that is an unreasonable opinion to reach.

The arrogance was detected (or interpreted) by people from both sides of the pond. I reacted strongly to you making it a cultural issue because frankly you have a history of trying to turn things into cultural issues with a clearly anti-American view even when you try to disguise it under the cloak of "trying to reach cultural understanding". At least that's my arrogant American interpretation of many of your posts.

Originally posted by Matthew:

I am sure that it is something of which you are oblivious, because there is no reason for it to be reported in the US, but it is broadly regarded here as an Americanisation of culture that people must have value found about them. Maybe that feeling is unduly reinforced by watching unrepresentative American media, like American idol, where the American judges are fairly consistently incapable of giving a harsh judgment.

Well, I think we found the source of some of your "issues" ;-)

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/02/2007 02:58:51 PM · #34

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
To the idea of anything that happens by anyone (or even everyone) here on DPC being representative of a "national attitude"...

WTF???

Get over yourself, Matthew - you have issues.

I am very happy to be proven wrong and that the thousands of Americans I have met are unrepresentative of their country: they tend to be more proud of success, more willing to tolerate it, more impressed and inspired by it than many English people I have met where the national character that I have observed is a little more cynical.

All those stories of American free spirit, freedom to succeed (things that I admire about the American psyche - which I had mistakenly assumed to have some commonality, revolving around certain ideals recorded in your very founding), are obviously wrong and you are just like us. Thanks for putting me straight.

As pointed out by KaDi, there are certainly cultural differences. This particular issue however has nothing to do with that and again, I am reacting to you trying to make it into a cultural issue.

And for the record, I don't dislike you, Matthew. I just think you are terribly misguided on not all, but many issues. And it's not my job to correct that.

suiteness

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Sigma 70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro for Canon

08/02/2007 02:59:32 PM · #35

i think i'll go for a swim now.

08/02/2007 03:04:57 PM · #36

Originally posted by KaDi:

Don't really care for your "very general, non specific, observations." It smacks of xenophobic prejudice.

I deal with a lot of Americans all the time. Mostly very successful people, and they are not shy of their success. The successful British people I deal with tend to be a little more reserved. This is why in England the adjective "brash" is often used in the context of referring to Americans.

This is not a criticism, but an observation.

Because, as a very general rule, American people are more comfortable talking about success, then doing so s less remarkable. When an Englishman, for whom the same comfort does not exist to the same degree, reads what is normal to an American, he can interpret it differently to an American.

Hopefully this explanation, since it reflects the English cynicism commented upon by several American commenters, avoids the gross xenophobia of which you complain.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

08/02/2007 03:10:43 PM · #37

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Ah - the source of so many misunderstandings.

Criticising American foreign policy does not mean that I don't like America, what it stands for, or Americans. One reason I disagree with what is happening in America right now is that it is compromising those American values that I admire most.

If it helps, I deeply criticise the UK foreign policy of Tony Blair - but I don't hate myself. It helps that I can take some action here, but only have words when it comes to the US.

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 15:13:05.

levyj413

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max

08/02/2007 03:11:38 PM · #38

Wow. The miscommunication expands in a never-ending cycle.

Let's review:
1) Jason explains how he came to his ribbon-winning entry.
2) Some people appreciate it.
3) Others think he's arrogant.
4) Others say they don't care about ribbons and the whole DPC "formula" is garbage anyway and besides, his ribbon-winning image isn't worth looking at for 10 seconds, much less emulating
5) Some silly name-calling that seemed to me to be among friends results in the thread being locked
6) Matthew starts a new thread to try to explain how some cultural differences might have led people to misunderstand Jason's initial post
7) People accuse Matthew of being overly broad and tarring all Americans with the same brush.

Have I covered all of it?

Sheesh.

Can't we all agree on a few things?
1) American culture is generally rooted in individuality. Different people act differently on it, but it is part of who we are as a culture.
2) British culture is generally more reserved.
3) Some Americans are as put off by grandstanding as Brits are.
4) Some Brits are as annoyed by the refusal to acknowledge one's own success as some Americans are.
5) Many people in both countries (indeed, everywhere) are ready, willing, and able to assume the worst intentions instead of the best

Matthew (and e301, if he's reading this thread): let me ask you a question about a specific comment since I think you're right about language differences within English.

When a Brit says "horribly" is it a friendly, nudge-nudge slight chiding term? When I read it, I thought it was quite a severe statement, with a very stern look, with no sense of friendliness at all. But after reading your first post in this thread, I wondered.

One last comment to two different groups:
1) To those of you who engage in trash talk: you know what you mean, but this whole thing smacks of people not really getting that you're kidding. Then they think you're as arrogant and self-congratulatory as the words you use mean literally.
2) To those who take trash talking by others seriously: don't. It's done in fun and if anyone who does it ever means the nasty things they say, they've missed the whole point.

Now I'll wait for someone to tell me I'm pompous. :/

levyj413

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

08/02/2007 03:14:54 PM · #39

Originally posted by Matthew:

One reason I disagree with what is happening in America right now is that it is compromising those American values that I admire most.

Know, deep in your heart, that there are plenty of people in the US who agree with you. But that's probably best left to another thread, probably in the rant forum. ;)

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

08/02/2007 03:18:08 PM · #40

Originally posted by levyj413:

Now I'll wait for someone to tell me I'm pompous. :/

You're *horribly* pompous :-)

R.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

08/02/2007 03:21:57 PM · #41

Originally posted by levyj413:

Matthew (and e301, if he's reading this thread): let me ask you a question about a specific comment since I think you're right about language differences within English.

When a Brit says "horribly" is it a friendly, nudge-nudge slight chiding term? When I read it, I thought it was quite a severe statement, with a very stern look, with no sense of friendliness at all. But after reading your first post in this thread, I wondered.

It can be read in different ways. In the context of Ed's statement, I would say it meant "very" but with a negative connotation. It was not a damning statement.

I can call someone "horribly wrong" in a civil conversation and it is less negative than "badly wrong", but concentrates on the degree of wrongness more than "very wrong".

levyj413

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max

08/02/2007 03:28:34 PM · #42

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by levyj413:
Matthew (and e301, if he's reading this thread): let me ask you a question about a specific comment since I think you're right about language differences within English.

When a Brit says "horribly" is it a friendly, nudge-nudge slight chiding term? When I read it, I thought it was quite a severe statement, with a very stern look, with no sense of friendliness at all. But after reading your first post in this thread, I wondered.

It can be read in different ways. In the context of Ed's statement, I would say it meant "very" but with a negative connotation. It was not a damning statement.

I can call someone "horribly wrong" in a civil conversation and it is less negative than "badly wrong", but concentrates on the degree of wrongness more than "very wrong".

*laugh* Chalk up another one to lack of understanding. "Very wrong" and "badly wrong" mean the same thing to me. And both are damning statements.

I swear I'm smiling as I type this, with merely a wondering look on my face. Not horribly upset. :)

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 15:29:03.