Cultural Differences - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

08/02/2007 11:48:38 AM · #2

Are you bragging about your country? You sound rather arrogant to me. :)

The population of the US is about 5 times larger than the UK. The US covers appx. 3.7 million square miles versus the UK's 50k. We're large and diverse. We may seem like one culture to you but we're not.

Is arrogance more acceptable "here" than "there"? I doubt it.
Is it bragging if you're just explaining how you achieved success? I don't think so.
If people in the US are culturally bound it probably lies in our belief in individuality and the freedom to express it. That includes expressing and accepting criticism in my experience.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

08/02/2007 11:54:41 AM · #3

I don't think it is/was a cultural thing. I think the opinions expressed were probably held by as many Americans as Brits. (And Frisca isn't in the US, btw, she's in Canada).

Arrogance and bragging is very distasteful to me, and many, many other Americans that I know. While I can vaguely see someone taking DrAchoos post as doing that, "assuming good faith" made me give him the benefit of the doubt and believe that he was simply trying to be helpful and give insight to a process that obviously wins a lot of ribbons.

Perhaps Jason did offend in what appeared to be bragging, but I don't think it (the offense) is related to where you are sitting. I largely suspect it has to do more with your overall opinion of him (or any poster).

If it is a UK/USA thing, perhaps brits are just more cynical?

(As far as the thread being locked, what you can't see is that there are several posts at the very end where people were just taking the opportunity to call each other juvenile names. That was a large reason for it being locked -- it was no longer discussing the Jason's process, or even the merits of it, it was simply turning into a bash-fest. And that is never necessary.)

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 11:57:35.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

08/02/2007 12:07:25 PM · #4

I kinda side with a few of the Brits here. The ending tone of the OP in thread that launched this thread, made my nose wrinkle a bit. Even as an American it seemed somewhat presumptous.

Culturally speaking I think Kadis right...there are millions of Americans that are in line with Matthew and e301's way of thinking but the masses make the most noise and make for the larger impression.

On a side note I wonder sometimes how much people on the site can appreciate a "one shot deal". It's well proven that images taking 130-330 pops do well. The crowd can tatse the effort that goes into those but the image where you only had one chance....hmmm?

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

08/02/2007 12:14:51 PM · #5

I feel that perhaps I shouldn't even be posting in this thread, but I do think there are cultural differences. I'm not using it as an excuse though because personally I often don't like the "american" culture. I cringe at the Olympics when Michael Johnson wears gold running shoes. I do think that here that might be taken as merely "trash talk" or something meant out of humor, but in a global venue it is seen as nothing but, er, arrogant.

Perhaps I should be more aware of the "global" nature of DPC. I really, really, really wasn't posting out of arrogance or a "hey, look at my shot! It is some sweet action!". To me, arrogance would have said, "my shot uses a skill that is unattainable by the average DPC member, so don't try." The actual takehome I was trying to give (and I must have done it poorly) was "This shot was improved through hard work, perseverence, and feedback. All those tools are available to everybody so don't lose hope!"

zaflabout

Nikon D300

08/02/2007 12:19:29 PM · #6

i have to agree with the doc, obviously he worked A LOT for this shot, and him showing us the process i think is a great gesture, sorta the secret to the trade, i learned a lot from him and others, such as scalvert and desousa just by them explaining how they did it. and i can't be more thankfull, since all my improvements is due to these side notes they offer.

Mick

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

08/02/2007 12:25:49 PM · #7

Originally posted by karmat:

Arrogance and bragging is very distasteful to me, and many, many other Americans that I know. While I can vaguely see someone taking DrAchoos post as doing that, "assuming good faith" made me give him the benefit of the doubt and believe that he was simply trying to be helpful and give insight to a process that obviously wins a lot of ribbons.

For my part, it wasn't the fact that he was bragging, it was what he was bragging about.

Personally, I think frisca was a bit premature in locking that thread. Yes, there was some name calling going on, but only a little and it could have been handled by simply reminding everyone that such is not allowed here. Locking the thread was a drastic move and unnecessary. If we start locking threads any time someone expresses a difference of opinion, or an opinion that the OP or an SC doesn't agree with, then it's going to get very boring and quiet around here.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

08/02/2007 12:28:26 PM · #8

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I feel that perhaps I shouldn't even be posting in this thread,

Actually Doc, I am quite pleased that you did post to this thread as it will cast a proper light on your altruistic objectives.

It is indeed sad that good intentions can be misconstrued, and luckily enough you took the time to address the issue at hand, and attempt to assuage the displeasure expressed by the OP.

I for one took no umbrage to your instructions, and would hope you continue to proffer words of advise to those of us that still have much to learn in the realm of photography.

Ray

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

08/02/2007 12:34:33 PM · #9

Thanks Ray.

I can have a forceful personality, although that is somewhat mellowing with age. I have learned that there are people in the world who, gasp, don't like me. I'm OK with it. I don't, however, make it a point to try to poke people in the eye.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

08/02/2007 12:42:55 PM · #10

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Perhaps I should be more aware of the "global" nature of DPC. I really, really, really wasn't posting out of arrogance or a "hey, look at my shot! It is some sweet action!". To me, arrogance would have said, "my shot uses a skill that is unattainable by the average DPC member, so don't try." The actual takehome I was trying to give (and I must have done it poorly) was "This shot was improved through hard work, perseverence, and feedback. All those tools are available to everybody so don't lose hope!"

"....so don't lose hope!"

Jason-I'm 100% certain your reason and intentions for that thread were pure. No more no less. It was nice taking the time to put up but the air of the post was a little off my compass.

Many people look at this site for different things and some people, such as myself don't value or stress the Ribbon/Competition side of the place as much as others. Even multiple Ribbon winners that I've met...could care less about that. Of course there are those who froth over that aspect which I find...strange to put it mildly.

I think the taste some people seem to have for ribbons set a standard for the site and that's my least favorite aspect of the site. There's a very narrow set of rules that are "generally" found in most if not all of the winning images.

So when I read "....so don't lose hope!" I get a little nervous. I think "hope for what? Ribbons? Or the ability to take a great long lasting iamges that will be seen and appreciated for years to come. They're not one in the same. I don't believe that Ribbons are or should be the end-all goal or that there's a certain work ethic that goes into achieving them. I put a lot of work into getting some images....and sometimes I have absolutely no image to show for my effort.

There are also two different things being discussed here from what I can see. One thing was the instructional side of the post the other was the tone of the post itself.

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 12:45:48.

hopper

Canon EOS-80D

Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS USM

08/02/2007 12:51:11 PM · #11

I picked up on the "tone" which some (English or not) could have perceived to be arrogance in the Doc's thread, but I have a lot of respect for Jason and I believe it was unintentional.

I also think many people (american or not) have pretty thin skin around here, and seeing Jason get "called out" pissed them off.

I'm not sure if it was cultural or just inadequate internet communication ... but I'd say neither side was "at fault" so to speak.

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

08/02/2007 12:51:45 PM · #12

Well, you could really fill in the blank with whatever you wanted. Ribbons could be it, but really "improvement" is just fine. I think there is a large group of people who came to the site to learn. They submit some stuff and are soundly disappointed with the results (be it score or comments or lack of comments). The repeated negative feedback makes them soon think, "I'm no good at this." What they need is a little boost to hear someone who has succeeded (at least at winning a ribbon) tell them, "look where this picture started and where it finished. There was no magic getting from point A to B. You can do it if you pay attention to detail and find a few friends who you can get feedback from."

hopper

Canon EOS-80D

Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS USM

08/02/2007 01:04:57 PM · #13

This sentence is a good example of a miscommunication. You assume that others "need" something and that you have it because you have succeeded where they have "failed". The sentence points to you.

No offense intended at all Doc, just hoping to shed some light on what may have happened in the other thread.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

What they need is ... someone who has succeeded

pawdrix

Nikon D700

08/02/2007 01:22:31 PM · #14

Originally posted by hopper:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
What they need is ... someone who has succeeded

You nailed it on the head. "Succeeded" at what?

In context...It's all good. If people want or need improvement at Ribboning you are da man to talk to.

As I look at it, if I did things the way you do I wouldn't be honest to myself or what I want, need or love to do. The images I like to take are drastically different than yours so again, in the context of scores and Ribbons, it's all good. In a strange way...I feel like I'm doing things right but I'll probably never grace the front page.

I'd love to win a ribbon every now and again, nothing wrong with that but if I try to complete the checklist of voters likes (coloring, sharpness, skies etc.)and avoid voter dislikes it would mean for me that my energy is being misplaced.

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 13:30:26.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

08/02/2007 01:35:19 PM · #15

Seems to me you all are getting your panties in wad because the Doc has tried to help the NooB's. If you don't need or want his advice then ignore it. Don't bag on the man for trying to give back to this site which by all accounts is supposed to be a learning site and a competition site.

I have had the pleasure of actually meeting and shooting with Jason. Let me tell you he is a very nice, open, humble man and it was a true pleasure. I have learned a great deal from the good Doc and I will continue to do so.

So if you think he is arrogant or suffering a case of braggadocio you really should look to yourself as to why you are projecting all this on a man who is just trying to give back to a community that he loves.

I would put more into the actions of a person then the word choices they make.

Keep up the good work Doc!

"Don't hate the player hate the game"

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 13:36:41.

hopper

Canon EOS-80D

Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS USM

08/02/2007 01:40:00 PM · #16

my posts are regarding what "may" have happened to cause a thread to get locked

i don't think Jason is arrogant

i wasn't "bagging" anyone

i'm not projecting

my panties aren't bunched

(edit to add: remembering you're an untouchable ... F/STOPS RULE!)

:)

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 13:41:39.

08/02/2007 01:41:51 PM · #17

Steve, I completely agree. DPC has a style for "success" and if you aren't into that, then by all means click "ignore". Any style, however, can be improved by diligence and feedback.

Thanks for the word Erick. I had a great time when we met. If we all want to put me in my place, we only need to pull up a few pictures of me and my "Carl Zeiss" backpack...

I may as well throw in these...

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

08/02/2007 01:42:38 PM · #18

To the idea of anything that happens by anyone (or even everyone) here on DPC being representative of a "national attitude"...

WTF???

Get over yourself, Matthew - you have issues.

jjusa

08/02/2007 01:44:13 PM · #19

I'm not sure why his words were picked apart soo much. I just read the original thread and it is a genuine attemp to help people. He obviously put time and effort into helping others to see his process and was being kind.

This has nothing to do with cultural differences but people who love to argue and find small imperfections in words and sentances that can possibly be interperated differently than what they were originaly meant for.

Now I bet someone finds something in what I just sayd and asks why I would say such a thing, quoting a particalr phrase, and explaning how they interperated it.

KaDi

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

08/02/2007 01:49:02 PM · #20

Originally posted by KelvinC:

"soo" "attemp" "sentances" "originaly" "sayd" "particalr" "explaning" "interperated"

<>

(Just be glad I've lost my grammar book.)
;-)

jjusa

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

08/02/2007 01:51:01 PM · #21

Originally posted by KaDi:

<>

Originally posted by KelvinC:
"soo" "attemp" "sentances" "originaly" "sayd" "particalr" "explaning" "interperated"

<>

(Just be glad I've lost my grammar book.)
;-)

I've never been good with spelling. haha.

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 13:51:20.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

08/02/2007 01:51:49 PM · #22

Originally posted by hopper:

I did not mean you necessarily. :-)

And F/stops Schmef Stops! :-P

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

08/02/2007 01:51:50 PM · #23

Originally posted by KelvinC:

I've never been good with spelling. haha.

It's obviously a reflection on the entire country of Canada.

jjusa

08/02/2007 01:53:06 PM · #24

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by KelvinC:
I've never been good with spelling. haha.

It's obviously a reflection on the entire country of Canada.

haha, you're just trying to make people mad now arn't you

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II