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08/01/2007 11:21:47 AM · #26 |
Jason, first and foremost thank you very much for such a detailed post regarding your wonderful shot! Now on to my humble opinions...
First regarding team play and perceived "unfairness" I would say we can disregard that aspect from the argument altogether. I mean really does anyone here think that Jason couldn't have accomplished this shot without the team? He was willing to put the work into the photo and he knew what the weaknesses were of the original shots. Look at his profile and it will be obvious. I will concede that an advantage may have come from motivation from his teammates and being in the playoffs, but everyone has the opportunity to be motivated right?
Second, with all the "formulas" floating around on how to win ribbons and what type of photos do good and bad, this thread offers the best one...."Work, Work, Work" as Jorge says. I'll give you myself as an example. I worked pretty hard on my emotion photo and was in contention for a ribbon, but I knew what improvements could have been made to make my shot better. I did the first two "works" but left the 3rd one off and it cost me a ribbon. I knew the flaws and how to fix them but didn't have the motivation (or energy) to re-shoot. If you critically look at your submissions and pick one thing to improve it are you willing to re-shoot?
Thirdly, I hate the idea that everyone needs to be at the same level in order to maintain self esteem. This site (and life in general) NEEDS people who excel, average people, and "beginners". I'm very happy that DPC has great photographers that I can learn from and compete with.
Thank you Ribbon Hogs for your commitment to this site and your participation, I hope you continue... |
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08/01/2007 11:30:22 AM · #27 |
I agree with Larus and others here - I think Jason did remarkably to get such an excellent live action, in the midst of motion shot in so few shots. If you notice from his description, he was critical of the shots as they were coming and continued to improve and evolve the shot until he got what he wanted.
I would imagine the top fashion photogs in the world probably take more than a few hundred shots to make a cover of a magazine.
And thanks for the excellent insight into your approach for this shot. A study in planning and production that I will be sure to follow in the future...
Originally posted by Larus:
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by De Sousa:
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Anyway, the picture took over 130 shots. |
I do not want to be an as**h*le but 130 shots to get it right. There is something wrong. (this many attempts to get it right is no way acceptable in my way of world. With your experience I expected much better from you). |
For sure you don't know what you are talking about.
There's only one way to get an exceptional photo and Jason is giving you the secret.
Work, work, work!
Write these 3 last words on a paper and do not forget them if you want to be a better photographer ;) |
Too busy to answer fully. But I 100 percent know what I am talking about.
And yes, I am thankful for what he wrote. and in fact I have learnt a lot from him. |
Lol, well do things your way then if you are so 100% sure. Man, I feel like such a tool now then after reading this since I took over 250 photos that evening of Heiður to get my shot, to think I could have gotten away with only shooting 25... :P
Jason only needed 130 and still kicked my ass :) |
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08/01/2007 11:38:04 AM · #28 |
Thanks for all the comments guys. I don't begrudge critical comments; that's part of DPC. I think they are all meant with the best in mind.
The reason it took so many shots is mainly because I'm anal retentive and "one more" is always a good thing. However, the action is ultimately a combo of four parts which need to be right to make a good pic.
1) The feet (how close together are they in the click?)
2) The arm and hat (how natural does it look and does it provide an appealing leading line?)
3) The flowers (do they rotate toward the camera and are they interfered with by the background?)
4) The height (does it look like I'm really happy or just out of shape?)
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08/01/2007 11:39:36 AM · #29 |
Ha, ha - so essentially the good Dr. tells us two things in his post:
- I worked a lot to get the right image
- I got advice from my teammates
To me, they both mean "don't worry if you're not scoring well, it's not written in the stars that you can't do it, just put more work into it and try to learn from others".
He immediately gets blasted for both:
- if you had to work so much on one image, it means you're really not very good
- it's unfair that you get to get advice from awesome photographers and I don't
This is just kind of funny to me...
Anyways, just to add my 2 cents: I have always seen in my own shots that there is an undeniable correlation between the effort that goes into TAKING the shot and the score. If you're scoring low, ask yourself: how much time did you take to "think" your image? How many hours scouting for a good location? How many sessions to get the lighting and everything right? If you go out and take a snap in a hurry, it probably won't do well, and all the Photoshopping in the world won't help... |
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08/01/2007 11:46:11 AM · #30 |
Funny, all my best scoring shots were snapshots and the one that I had a hard time shooting it finds itself with my smallest score :)
I do agree that you need hard work and think of all aspects in order to get THAT picture that will make a hit.
Congrats on another ribbon Doc and keep the hard work, I like the results. |
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08/01/2007 12:31:26 PM · #31 |
Very nice write up on how your blue ribbon evolved. Here I was - thinking that taking 5 or 10 shots was enough to get a good photograph - then I see you (a very accomplished photographer) taking over a 100. That tells me I need to be more diligent while taking a picture for a challenge. Congratulations on a great photograph and thanks for the advice. Taking time to read your OP and reading between the lines tells me if I want to keep improving I must do what it takes to get the shot I set out to achieve.
Well at least when I get a camera I know 5, 10, or even 25 shots may not be enough to get the results desired. You have to keep on clicking. That explains why I only had 8000 pictures with my old Rebel XT.
Message edited by author 2007-08-01 12:32:42. |
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08/01/2007 12:40:59 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by boysetsfire:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Anyway, the picture took over 130 shots. |
so much for the decisive moment. |
...amen to that. |
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08/01/2007 12:49:37 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by De Sousa:
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Anyway, the picture took over 130 shots. |
I do not want to be an as**h*le but 130 shots to get it right. There is something wrong. (this many attempts to get it right is no way acceptable in my way of world. With your experience I expected much better from you). |
For sure you don't know what you are talking about.
There's only one way to get an exceptional photo and Jason is giving you the secret.
Work, work, work!
Write these 3 last words on a paper and do not forget them if you want to be a better photographer ;) |
...so so wrong...some of the very best images ever made were made on the fly or from the hip...perhaps this "work ethic" is best applied to the stock/commercial photography sort of scenario and those who wish to excel at that...and some photographers find their "formula" and never deviate from it...to each their own, as always. |
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08/01/2007 12:53:39 PM · #34 |
FWIW, I regularly take upwards of 100 shots. I just did last night, actually, and the 99th is the one I used in the Free Study.
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08/01/2007 12:54:53 PM · #35 |
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08/01/2007 12:57:20 PM · #36 |
Everybody does it their own way. 200 for one concept, or 1 as a hip shot.
Who cares? It's about the final choice you make and the final photo you pick.
Grow up. Go take some photos instead of being jealous and whining about a blue ribbon. He deserved it, that's why he's on the front page.
Thanks Doc for showing us the steps you had to take. The final is awesome! |
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08/01/2007 12:58:48 PM · #37 |
Depends who your wife is.
Jenn can provide me with devestating insight into what works and what doesn't. She has even learned "the vocabulary" even though she is not a photographer. I've won ribbons when going with the shot she chose (read the notes to "Stormy Seas at Dawn").
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08/01/2007 01:02:01 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Depends who your wife is.
Jenn can provide me with devestating insight into what works and what doesn't. She has even learned "the vocabulary" even though she is not a photographer. I've won ribbons when going with the shot she chose (read the notes to "Stormy Seas at Dawn"). |
I hope that this is said in jest! |
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08/01/2007 01:22:54 PM · #39 |
| Wow, although it was quite interesting, it seems a bit much to win, and then, painstakingly list every detail of the shot evolution. A bit much. Its a sharp shot that met the challenge well. Its artistic merit is questionable. People don't need the clevr and tricky formula, hell, those are a dime a dozen, (although usualluy finish dead horribly) I wish there was a formula for composition, light, color, etc. Now that would be a super post... |
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08/01/2007 01:25:46 PM · #40 |
Naw, I was quite serious Pekesty. :)
Just so people can peer behind the scenes even more, I'll post the entirety of what was discussed about the shot in our thread. I don't think the others will mind and I'll keep it anonymous. Notice that there was no consensus of opinion (that always happens when you ask more than one person). I'm not doing this to defend myself at all, just because I'd find this interesting if someone else posted it.
After image #1:
The concept is a good one, but I'm concerned about the busy background. I would suggest an ND filter and/or waiting for morning or evening light to get very shallow DOF (which will also help with the building and tree trunks in the background. The flowers get a little lost in the foliage, and I'm not convinced they're even necessary (logically, he would have already given them to the girl). The ultimate scene IMO would be tree trunks that form a natural heart-shaped frame around him or maybe a tree-line dirt road with a heart and arrow scrawled in the foreground. Maybe it's even some other form of elation, such as a lottery winner (I'm just thinking out loud here). The border is fine, but I'd prefer a thinner or darker inline.
After image #2:
That looks much better to me. The position of the branch right behind the flowers is unfortunate, there's some artifact weirdness around the hand, and the pants are lost against the dark background. Curves might help with the latter issue, though. I liked your first title better than this one.
Jason,
Saw your takes. The concept is very good, but the background is killing the composition. choose a neutral background fitting the rule of thirds, or blur it all with DOF... don't let anything close appear in the frame... and jump!
The hat out of the head works better and you can have your arm almost straight to create a perfect diagonal with the body and legs. Try to crop as near as possible to your top and put more ground to give impression of high jump.
It's much better... almost perfect. The branch is killing your master piece!
(Push a little up the crop (more top and less ground... just a little... aim at top left thirds)
If you go reshot, get much more flowers and if you can dress an uniform army. it pop the message.
After recrop of image #2:
It aint going to be a high scorer in my opinion. Just too busy. Plus DPC doesnt vote this kind of image high usually unless there is some awesome background or scene. the idea is good but u need more of the elements there IMO.
Final image:
Well much better :) Enter this if you don´t shoot anything better. I still want to gripe about the backround, sorry.
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08/01/2007 01:28:23 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Anyway, the picture took over 130 shots. The next day my leg was so sore from kicking in the air, I had to move it around with my arms when sitting. An equal amount of effort went into nearly every other entry by The Hogs team. The scores are reflective of this work ethic and an encouragement to others to not settle for second best on their own pictures. If it can be improved, go out and improve it. I highly doubt that first shot would have come in the Top 25, let alone win. |
You gotta admire such devotion to perfection. It's a wonderful photo that completely captured this challenge!
Do you use a remote to snap the pic? I mean, take a pic and back to the camera 130 times? whew... and using a 180mm lens, not like you were right in front of the camera but had to be a bit away? |
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08/01/2007 01:31:37 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by eac:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Anyway, the picture took over 130 shots. The next day my leg was so sore from kicking in the air, I had to move it around with my arms when sitting. An equal amount of effort went into nearly every other entry by The Hogs team. The scores are reflective of this work ethic and an encouragement to others to not settle for second best on their own pictures. If it can be improved, go out and improve it. I highly doubt that first shot would have come in the Top 25, let alone win. |
You gotta admire such devotion to perfection. It's a wonderful photo that completely captured this challenge!
Do you use a remote to snap the pic? I mean, take a pic and back to the camera 130 times? whew... and using a 180mm lens, not like you were right in front of the camera but had to be a bit away? |
I did some by timer (usually just to set up the scene as I don't like to bother my "assistants" (ie family) before I'm ready. They roll their eyes at me enouogh). One session has my 7-year-old pushing the trigger on the wire release. The final shot was actually taken by my dad from about 40 yards away. It was another reason to do many shots because I didn't go back and look at each and every one. I'd look until I'd get the rough composition I was looking for and then snap a dozen takes with those settings and composition. Then I'd go inside, see what I had to work with, work one up, and then adjust from there with the next session.
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08/01/2007 01:36:02 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Wow, although it was quite interesting, it seems a bit much to win, and then, painstakingly list every detail of the shot evolution. A bit much. Its a sharp shot that met the challenge well. Its artistic merit is questionable. People don't need the clevr and tricky formula, hell, those are a dime a dozen ... |
Did you read the many expressions of appreciation to Jason? Apparently, many people do think it's worth it, do like the detailed explanation, and "artistic merit" always has been, and always will be, a matter of personal taste. Now, if YOU don't want to put much effort in, that's your choice.
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08/01/2007 01:42:45 PM · #44 |
Jason,
You are spending a big afford to explain how to aim a great composition to those that only believes in luck.
I think you only need to wish them:
- GOOD LUCK!
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08/01/2007 01:53:35 PM · #45 |
applause and thanks for the information you've given. funny how folks always ask "how?" and when you answer the "how" then it becomes "why" and the great debate and "given" negativity starts. I joined DPC to learn and folks like yourself, brad, and many others help me with that. As I've said MANY times...until I learn PP and setup and learn patience (HA) for all that...I'll always be mediocre to poor with photography...regardless of learned by on-the-job/life experience, etc or "class/schooling/formal education, etc...learning takes work ethic...and repitition...do it again..now do it better..again..better...
The majority of the ribbon winners I see and admire have strong sense of work ethic and giving back to community at DPC...thought into shot, setup time, number of shots, efforts into learning and completing post processing...etc etc etc...
Thank you Dr. Achoo and others...us students appreciate you :-) (like the grammar and spelling errors?) |
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08/01/2007 02:01:40 PM · #46 |
Thank you so much for sharing how you made this shot. It was one of my favorites from the challenge. It is nice to see how much work you put into it. I beleive it takes more then luck to get a great shot, it takes talent and time. You showed that here. This is going to help me a lot.
I think if more people would put as much effort and time into there shots as you do there would not be as much whinning on this thread.
I am here to learn and it is the great photographers like you and your fellow teammates (and all the other wonderful and helpful photographers here)that make that possible.
Congrats!!!!
Message edited by author 2007-08-01 14:03:10. |
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08/01/2007 07:04:29 PM · #47 |
| Jason thank you. I've learned a lot from being here and the most important one is having patience to see your idea go from your brain to the photo. Which I'm still working on. I look to the people that have the ribbons and study what they have done. In time and patience I hope someday to have what you work for. |
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08/01/2007 07:33:21 PM · #48 |
Horribly self-congratulatory thread, Jason.
e |
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08/01/2007 07:54:21 PM · #49 |
Jason thank you for sharing this. To all the negative replies I say that this image Jason has produced which absolutely nailed the challenge description could have been produced by anyone here without collaboration. The key to this image was the idea and perseverance in its execution.
Clearly the 20D team has not collaborated to the extent that the hogs have but I don̢۪t have a problem with that at all. If the best photographers on the site wish to collaborate then so be it, they will then certainly live up to there name but for me personally the satisfaction of beating any one of the hogs in a challenge is something to cherish.
Instead of complaining about the hogs! use this as inspiration to beat them, imagine how  Spizzer feels knowing that he has beaten seven of the best photographic minds on the site.
To quote his bio I have joined this group to challenge myself to improve my photography skills.
Message edited by author 2007-08-01 21:51:11. |
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08/02/2007 01:13:40 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by e301:
Horribly self-congratulatory thread, Jason.
e |
And reeks of arrogance.
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