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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> How do you fire strobes outside?
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 07/26/2007 03:43:33 AM · #1
Here is my problem. I have a very basic set-up, which consists of one hotshoe flash that I can remotely fire using the canon ST-E2 transmitter (only works with the canon hotshoe flash), and I have one strobe that I fire using the flash slave cell (that detects my first flash being fired).

That works fine in a studio environment. But I discovered it doesn't work well or at all outside. I imagine it's because the sun is so strong that the hotshoe flash doesn't overpower it and/or there is no reflection of the flash on walls etc.

Pretty noob discovery I suppose. But then my question becomes, what should I do to fire multiple flashs/strobes outside?

thanks
 07/26/2007 03:46:50 AM · #2
Radio transmitters - Pocket Wizards if you can afford them, generics from ebay if you can't. There are plenty of user opions and testimonials on the generics in the strobist forum -
//www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/
 07/26/2007 05:42:54 AM · #3
Originally posted by virtuamike:
Radio transmitters - Pocket Wizards if you can afford them, generics from ebay if you can't. There are plenty of user opions and testimonials on the generics in the strobist forum -
//www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/


At this same place you'll find the eBay slaves at about a 10th of the cost of PWs. So if you wanna do it on the cheap, if it's not a pro assignment, then you might want to try the cheaper triggers. I've got the 16ch studio versions, 1tx and 6 rx units. With an antenna mod I get 200 ft range outside. Google Gadgit infinity. If you need near 100 percent reliability then go for the PWs. They're great.
 07/26/2007 06:33:12 AM · #4
The trouble with using a radio transmitter is that you'll lose the e-TTL capability that you have right now. That's not a bad thing, it just means you'll have to manage both the ambient light AND the flash exposure (a flash meter would help tremendously, but you can get by with a histogram).

Now, if you want to still use e-TTL, then I'd suggest either: 1) get an off shoe cord so that you can take the ST-E2 off the shoe and point it at your slave, or 2) instead of the ST-E2, get a flash such as the 550 or 580 to use as the master and then point the flash head at the slave to fire it (an expensive solution, but there are other times when having two flashes will be better than one).

In either case, rotate the BODY of your slave flash to point at the master while the HEAD of the flash remains pointing at your subject. The BODY of the flash has the "red square" in front of it ... that is the sensor. It needs to see the light from the master in order to fire. So whatever you can do to ensure that the master and slave can see each other will improve the chances of the flashes going off.

These are just a couple of recent examples of this technique:

- -

And this last one shows the same location but the flash accidentally didn't go off (shot before it had time to recharge). Still, a pretty nice image and it serves to illustrate that my exposure was set for the sky and not the couple and that e-TTL in the previous images is what managed the flash exposure on the couple:



Message edited by author 2007-07-26 06:42:57.
 07/26/2007 07:25:53 AM · #5
Thanks for your replies.

David, that is very helpful (and the shots are quite nice!). The only thing is in my simple set-up the strobe is not fired by the ST-E2. It's an AB strobe fired by the flash itself fired by the ST-E2. The ST-E2 to Hotshoe Flash part works more or less ok. The issue I have is for the flash-strobe part. This relies on the strobe detecting the flash. And it doesn't seem to work well outside.

Now if I use transmitters like the pocket wizard, I have to abandon my ST-E2, buy 3 additional units (one transmitter and 2 receivers - assuming that those units work with a hotshoe flash). Pretty expensive to fire one strobe.

I was thinking about this:
//www.bowens.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24_30&products_id=41

might help the 2nd strobe see the flash of the first one. Anyone used this?

07/26/2007 08:18:35 AM · #6
If your strobe has a softbox attached, chances are the photosite on the strobe is pointed away from the other flash and is also being shaded by the softbox, so it can't "see" the flash. In that case, try an umbrella instead on your strobe which will point the back of the strobe towards the flash. I know you'd probably rather have the softbox instead of an umbrella on there, but if it doesn't work...

Hope that helps.
 07/26/2007 08:40:04 AM · #7
Originally posted by dwterry:




Pretty nice shot for a flash misfire!!!!

In the other shots - Do you use a bare flash or do you diffuse it with an umbrella/softbox?

I am shooting a wedding in Cyprus in Sept and want to do this type of shot on the beach as the sun goes down. A little advice to practice with would be greatly appreciated! I will be using the Ebay type triggers and setting flash power manually after metering for the sky.

Thanks,
AL.
 07/26/2007 08:41:13 AM · #8
Go to the store. Ask the guy if you can test a Sigma 500 DG super with the ST E2 transmitter. I never got around to doing this myself and it faded out of usefulness since I now have 2 of my own units and access to a third of the Sigma brand, so it isn't really relevant for me.

I asked about this a while back and discovered that many people have had success using the Canon IR system with Sigma units. You may have trouble if you use the channels, but I don't use the channels myself. I have generally just been playing with one setup.. I've only had mine for a month though and much of that time has been extremely busy.

With softboxes, the coverage issue is a big deal.

One thing to note though is that in my fiddling with the laser trigger flash box (see the tutorials section here), I discovered that the flash seems to be sensitive not so much to levels of light, but in sudden changes. This is also the case with voltage. The flash will react to a sudden change in voltage, but changing it slowly will not get a reaction from the flash.

This means that the flashes generally perform better than you might expect even with their receivers partially blocked. However, nothing is perfect.

I was actually starting to wonder how they would perform using the IR system outdoors. Should be OK though.
 07/26/2007 09:33:46 AM · #9
Originally posted by eschelar:
Go to the store. Ask the guy if you can test a Sigma 500 DG super with the ST E2 transmitter. I never got around to doing this myself and it faded out of usefulness since I now have 2 of my own units and access to a third of the Sigma brand, so it isn't really relevant for me.

I asked about this a while back and discovered that many people have had success using the Canon IR system with Sigma units. You may have trouble if you use the channels, but I don't use the channels myself. I have generally just been playing with one setup.. I've only had mine for a month though and much of that time has been extremely busy.

With softboxes, the coverage issue is a big deal.

One thing to note though is that in my fiddling with the laser trigger flash box (see the tutorials section here), I discovered that the flash seems to be sensitive not so much to levels of light, but in sudden changes. This is also the case with voltage. The flash will react to a sudden change in voltage, but changing it slowly will not get a reaction from the flash.

This means that the flashes generally perform better than you might expect even with their receivers partially blocked. However, nothing is perfect.

I was actually starting to wonder how they would perform using the IR system outdoors. Should be OK though.


I wondered how the Sigma would do as well and I tested it before I sold mine when I had the 580EX. I know the Sigma can be fired optically as a slave, but I never had any success firing it with the IR system.

MattO
 07/26/2007 10:10:05 AM · #10
Originally posted by pix-al:
Originally posted by dwterry:




Pretty nice shot for a flash misfire!!!!


Some of my best shots are accidents! (ummm... maybe I shouldn't admit that in public) lol

Originally posted by pix-al:
In the other shots - Do you use a bare flash or do you diffuse it with an umbrella/softbox?


When I have time to set up the shot, I'll use a shoot thru umbrella. This B&G had just about "had it" with pictures. I was risking getting them angry by pulling them aside, one more time, for pictures. But I saw the sunset coming and went for it. In truth, I jumped the gun. I should have let the sun set a bit more before starting as it was still too high in the sky and too bright for what I wanted. But the B&G happened to be walking by and I snagged them and went for it.

Originally posted by pix-al:
I will be using the Ebay type triggers and setting flash power manually after metering for the sky.


In my case, I was shooting e-TTL. It's a lot quicker. You set your exposure for the sky and let e-TTL figure out the exposure on the subject. Since flash exposure will change as you move the flash closer or further away, you pretty much have to meter the shot and keep the people and flash in one spot after you meter it. So e-TTL save a lot of that process.

When I'm shooting a big family against a sunset, I'll use a battery powered studio strobe (JTL 300 Mobilight). In big groups, the people don't move around, I don't have to "think fast", I just set up the shot and go.

So both have their places (e-TTL flash versus manual exposure with strobes).


07/26/2007 10:18:26 AM · #11
Thanks...

I have a couple of shoot throughs. I was thinking of using two flashes at once through one brolly to up the power of the lights to allow them to be placed further away.

If the rain ever stops in Wales (It has rained for about 4 weeks solid now!), I'll get out in the garden and take some test shots.
07/26/2007 04:04:31 PM · #12
Originally posted by Telehubbie:
If your strobe has a softbox attached, chances are the photosite on the strobe is pointed away from the other flash and is also being shaded by the softbox, so it can't "see" the flash. In that case, try an umbrella instead on your strobe which will point the back of the strobe towards the flash. I know you'd probably rather have the softbox instead of an umbrella on there, but if it doesn't work...

Hope that helps.


Or pick up a Wein slave and place it in a better position to see your other flashes so you don't have to do something as drastic as changing your light setup.
 07/26/2007 04:10:04 PM · #13
You could put a peanut slave on the end of a Sync cord and place it closer to the hot shoe flash. Just another option. I did a studio shoot with my Nikon Coolpix 950 by taping a peanut in front of the on-board flash. It works ;-)

Message edited by author 2007-07-26 16:10:47.
 07/28/2007 10:16:52 PM · #14
brilliant idea ffman. I'll pass that one on to my friends who also shoot with the rebel. You still end up getting tied down with a physical wire, but it's a good way to mimic PC-sync.
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