Is anyone is getting there photos critiqued?

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

08/11/2003 03:57:19 AM · #26

Clubjuggle (Terry) is now looking after CC.

hortopth

Canon EOS-D60

08/11/2003 04:09:17 AM · #27

Originally posted by shutterfly:

Maybe if there was some sort of incentive, more people would vote.

How about no scoring, only commenting. We could give it a trial run.

This would remove the final ranking system that is so addictive, but doesn't really help anyone with improving their photos.

Not holding my breath... just an idea

tarique

Nikon Coolpix 5700

08/11/2003 04:19:05 AM · #28

Originally posted by hortopth:

]Not holding my breath... just an idea

Well I tried with other sites - its not half the fun it is here...
Waiting for people to slam you ;)

Message edited by author 2003-08-11 04:19:33.

hortopth

Canon EOS-D60

08/11/2003 06:01:58 AM · #29

I'm sure the slam will come!
I have to admit, the scoring and ranking is a lot of the fun. For comments, there are other, smaller clubs. I just discovered a local one, the Melbourne Camera Club. I can use that for comments, and this site for the more fun competition.

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

08/14/2003 03:04:33 AM · #30

Jumping on this thread a couple days late, but....

1 - Like others, I have tried to join the CC, and have gotten no response. IMO, the CC is broken and a joke at this point in time. (No offense aimed at those who are in the club and doing the critiques, I assume you guys are doing your best. But there is obviously something wrong with the system as it's being implemented right now.)

2 - As far as prefering 10 short comments over 1 long critique, as Rob (muckpond) suggested: I have to disagree with the reality of this. Sure, 10 brief but thoughtful comments (from 10 different people, of course) could be more enlightening than 1 in-depth comment from one person. But the reality is that if I get 10 comments, likely 5 of them are "nice shot", 2 are "nice shot, good ", 1 are "bad " and 1 is either some snide or sarcastic remark or something in the "doesn't meet the challenge" vein. And, hopefully, one contains more than 10 words and shows some thoughtful reaction. On a shot with 20 to 30 comments, I'm usually satisfied with that - but then on those shots I usually got a decent score and I got an idea of what either set it above the pack, or held it back from the top ranks. However, when (like on desolation) I've got 100+ votes, 0 comments and I'm running at 4.4 on a shot that I thought would be in the 5s, I very much would appreciate one person taking 2 minutes to really look at my shot and maybe another 2 minutes to write a few sentences of feedback. Sure I'd rather know what 20 or 30 people think, but right now I know that's not going to happen this time around... To me, that's a significant part of the whole point of the CC - to make sure everyone who wants some thoughtful feedback and criticism gets at least one person to take a few minutes on their picture.

3 - I agree with Tayla (RiderGal) - I don't request a critique on every shot. There are some shots that simply are what they are. They're snapshots, or they were a moment in time where capturing the moment was more important than technical issues. However, I have probably requested critiques on maybe 6-8 entries. To date, I've gotten 1 "legitimate" critique, which I only got after asking about it in this forum. I got one other post that I had at least been visited by the critique club, but by the time they got there, I had already solicited and received useful feedback in the results forum. No other time have I heard word one from the CC. It gets doubly frustrated when you read the phrase "the queue has been cleared" (or something like that), and you know you requested and never received a critique.

4 - I also agree with Richard (autool) that it would be better to request a critique after the challenge. The number of requests would probably go way down. But I disagree with your thoughts on being assigned random shots to critique. When you choose to offer short comments only on the pictures that move you (either positively or negatively) to comment, you are probably only adding to a list of comments that already exists (unless you mean you're doing it afterwards, and you're seeking pictures that recieved little or no comments). The purpose (in my mind) of doing critiques of those more difficult shots is that they are probably the ones that everyone would have found difficult to comment on, so they probably wouldn't have received much feedback. By not critiquing them, you're probably gauranteeing they received no useful feedback, and you're also (I assume) breaking the CC system, because that photo will be "cleared from the queue" and never receive any more feedback. You're doing a real disservice to the whole CC system by ignoring those photos.

5 - I'm also curious if the CC system is anonymous. I have suspected (in the more paranoid corners of my mind) that there may be some (hopefully) unintentional favoritism occuring in the CC. Are critiques more likely to get done on people who are more active members of the community because their names are more familiar? Or are the critiques assigned without the CC member know who's photo they are critiquing? I mean, let's assume that the CC is getting to just 50% of the requested critiques. If CC members are blindly, randomly critiquing assigned photos, than the odds would dictate that I should have recieved 4 critiques of the 8 I've requested. In fact, I've only recieved two, both solicited outside the CC system. Others in this thread have recieved none. Statistically, this isn't right if critiques were done randomly.

Myself, I've started trying to take the time to give substantive feedback (a paragraph instead of a sentance) to a smaller number of pictures, instead of one-liners to a bunch of people. I'd love to join the CC, but at this point I think that if the system isn't working, then maybe the option should be removed completely.

Well, it's late, I'm rambling, and I've probably pissed off the whole CC. I'll probably never get critiqued again or accepted into the club.... Oh, wait, then nothing's changed.... ;-)

Message edited by author 2003-08-14 03:19:32.

Imagineer

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

08/14/2003 03:29:38 AM · #31

I've made 576 comments, received 184, entered 12 challenges. Sent an email to CC - no reply. That's rude. ;)

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

08/14/2003 04:23:53 AM · #32

I used to do critiques for the CC.

Firstly, it's not anonymous, the critique is left as a regular comment but with a heading of Critique Club or such.

Secondly, it's not a case of favouritism for popular posters but simply that photos by CC members will get allocated first - the idea being that people who are investing their time, voluntarily, should be able to expect that they have the courtesy returned to them. Remaining images are then allocated randomly by the program written to do so, not by an individual. It's certainly not a case of only critiqueing photos that are preferred.

There was some discussion about whether or not to remove this aspect of allocation ordering and also about whether to have requests made only after results were announced. It all went very quiet. I have no idea if Terry's just given up on the whole thing after a flurry of excitement when first taking over. Certainly I'm surprised he has't replied to this thread given that I know he's been around lately.

I stopped critiqueing recently for a number of reasons.

Firstly because the club generates a great deal of moaning from people who don't get a critique but comparatively little support and thanks fro those who do. Again and again it seems people have forgotten that it's not something offered by those who run the site but a voluntary thing offered by other members.

It also seemed that it was becoming more like a chore with people within the club starting (again) to discuss imposing minimum critiques to be done by members per week etc. I felt that giving one good critique for the club per week was still worthwhile (to the person who received it) and shouldn't be dismissed just because someone else had time and inclination to do more. I also didn't think it too healthy when it ended up being only one or two people doing tens of critiques every week just to "clear the queue". Shrug.

I really have no clue why emails from people volunteering to do critiques for the club have been ignored. Since I've never noticed Terry to be a rude person, I'm wondering if they are not getting to him/ are being sent to the wrong email address. Perhaps if he could post on this thread he may be able to answer that.

I also got fed up of getting so few people come back to me after getting a long critique and even saying thanks let alone discussing some of the points I'd made.

Now I have reverted to doing my own comments on images I choose and not worrying about the CC.

Kavey

Message edited by author 2003-08-14 04:24:15.

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

08/14/2003 12:52:43 PM · #33

Thanks for the inside view Kavey (at least, from one person's perspective). One thing it confirms is that, while you might choose a different term, you seem to agree that the "system" is broken. (And by "system", I just mean the whole process, from joining the club to the assignement of critiques, to ensuring that as many critiques are made as possible, to appreciation for the critiquers.)

I agree that we all should be more appreciative of comments in general, and especially of critiques. I have tried in past challenges to send out a thank-you to all the commenters on my shots, but have to admit that I fall short more often than not. Once the challenge is over and you've got your score and ranking, and you've reviewed the results, its easy to get distracted by the next challenge. I need to work on that.

As far as appreciating the critque goes, I wonder how many people have gotten critiques and didn't know, because they never went back and checked their comments after the first day or two following the challenge? Maybe there should be some kind of notification available (say an e-mail auto-generated by the site) when your entry receives comments after a challenge is over. That would ensure that people actually know they received a critique, and might lead to more thank-yous, and even dialog, for the CC volunteers.

In regards to my comments on favoritism, I didn't mean to imply it was a purposeful thing, and I do understand CCers get first priority. It was just a guess as to why some people seem to get so few of their critique requests granted.

And, I also had the impression from some posts in the forums that there were, at least on occasion, times where a few club members were going through and trying to make sure every request got honored, but at that point if one or two people are making 100 short comments, no matter how well-intentioned, it kind of falls short of what I would hope for in a critique.

Thanks again for the feedback. Hopefully the club can be salvaged...

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

08/14/2003 01:03:12 PM · #34

I spoke to Terry earlier and he's going to try and post his own reply to the thread later today or tomorrow, when he has a chance.

Message edited by author 2003-08-15 06:04:29.

KevinRiggs

Canon EOS-1Ds

08/14/2003 01:22:05 PM · #35

I've sent two or three e-mails to join the critique club to no avail. I just assumed it was either a closed group and the site hadn't been updated or that the admins were just too busy right now to respond.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

08/14/2003 05:54:10 PM · #36

As a member of the CC, I can only give my opinion about things. I do my best to do at least 2 or 3 a week. Some weeks I have done over ten, for a couple of weeks I did 0. I'm once again trying to get back into the swing of things, to do more.

I'm sorry if your picture is not being critiqued, but there is little, fro the general membership of CC points of views, that can be done about it. We are volunteers. It is a privilege, not a guaranteed right. If you really, really, really, really, really, really think you absolutely positively must have a critique on a picture, send a personal message to a person you respect and ask if they have time to take a look.

I, for one, have stopped checking the box at all, in the hopes that it would clear up at least one more spot.

just trying to do my best,
karmat

muckpond

Nikon D200

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

08/14/2003 06:45:10 PM · #37

i agree with karmat. the CC is a voluntary portion of the site. just because you check the box doesn't mean you are GUARANTEED a critique on your photo.

i am trying to work on as many as i can. no, they are not anonymous. after a challenge ends, you know whose picture is whose anyway. sometimes I wish they were anonymous because I feel more sheepish critiquing a photo of someone i know anyway, but that's beside the point.

and frequently i do get private messages from people whose photos i have critiqued. i enjoy those, but i don't consider them necessary. i'm just trying to put back into the site what i take from it.

my best advice is for you all to attempt to do the same. spend time really thinking about the photos that move you most on this site and post comments about them. they will be appreciated, and will make DPC a special, happy place. :)

rob

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

08/15/2003 12:13:44 PM · #38

Personally I do think it's polite to acknowledge a critique... and I have had some very enjoyable discussions arising from such aknowledgement messages...

stephan

Casio QV-4000

08/15/2003 09:14:55 PM · #39

@ScottK:
Having been too much on the "desolation" trip lately or why do I keep hearing that the "system is broken"? ;-) It's not. It works. And it's the best feature here on DPC in my opinion.

I understand that you are angry about getting so few critiques. But there is a solution. Join the CC, do at least two critiques and you'll get critiques yourself. Guaranteed.

There seems to be a problem that people didn't get added to the list. That's sad but I hardly see that this should be an immanent problem of the CC. That will be solved.

Meanwhile, why not just doing indepth critiques anyway. Write some full-blown comments on random photos. See this as a test run for you. Sure this is not as cool as being a member of the legendary Critique Club (<- joke!) but it wouldn't do any harm. If somebody get's two critiques this way, well even better. And maybe the one you write the critique for will do the same for you?!

Regarding some other things Kavey and Karmat mentioned...
Sometimes the lack of feedback to the critiques makes me sad, too. After like half an hour of thinking and writing (and in my case translating, too ;-)) you sometimes don't even now if the other person even read it. But it would be bad to stop writing critiques because of this. If everybody would stop making efforts because the other people stopped making efforts then soon we all would just sit here and do nothing. Other than posting to the rant forum of course ;-)

The thing about the minimum critiques... as far as I understand it it only affects your prioritisation in the queue. You still can do only one critique or even none, but you won't be handled priority then. But I also think that one minimum critique would be enough. That would at least balance everything out within the CC and I consider it fair when somebody writes a critique for the one he/she receives. One critique is better than nothing. Everything else is additional benefit. On the other hand one or two minimum critiques is not that much a difference and personally I felt that it motivated me to do at least the two critiques ;-)

KevinRiggs

Canon EOS-1Ds

08/16/2003 07:02:53 PM · #40

I have tried to provide critiques that follow what I understand the CC format to be. I critiqued the Composition, Focus, Lighting, Color and Overall (I think that's it). I give comments on each area and generally tell the person what I would score it.

I write shorter, less in-depth critiques if I feel the picture had major technical problems or I just didn't get it in some way. I'll provide my viewpoint on the overall submission and why I'm distracted by some facet of it.

The reason I wanted to join the Critique Club (aside from drinking Mint Julips with the rest of the group on the veranda Sunday mornings while we watch the help scurry around doing menial labor) is that I figured then my critiques could actually be directed to people who requested in-depth critiques rather than just random photos. I thought I'd be helping to balance out the load the the CC seems to be under.

Kev

OneSweetSin

Nikon D3000

08/16/2003 10:25:08 PM · #41

To those of you who complain about not getting CCs I have got to say this to you. When was the last time you repaid someone for a CC by returning the favor?

We spend our own time to do critiques, and the very least you could do is check the helpful box even if you don't like knowing the flaws in your photo. Isn't that why you checked to have it critiqued in the first place?

Secondly, ever think of clicking on the persons name who did the critique and really returning the favor by critiquing one of that persons photos yourself?

I will admit in all honesty I have dropped the number of critiques I do weekly considerable cause I was tired of the pms complaining cause they didn't like something I said in a critique. I started spending more time explaining why something was overly sharpened or why I said something was overly processed.

Some of you forget we are people too we have lives, why should we spend all our free time doing critiques when you won't spend enough time to return the favor by leaving a comment on one of our photos or at least check the box as being helpful!

I know some of you won't like this attitude I have developed but I have a little boy who I love to spend time with and it is still summer vacation here....so tell me, why should I spend my time doing CCs when you can't even return the favor with a comment or a checked box?

HBunch

HP PhotoSmart 315

08/16/2003 11:16:07 PM · #42

OSS, I haven't been making many CC comments lately for the fact that I'm back to work again, and that it's summer time. However, after reading your post, I was curious as to the % of my CC comments that were marked as helpful. 161 out of 235 were marked helpful.
74 were not acknowledged. This is about 69% helpful on my Critique Club comments. And I send an email to everyone letting them know they have one. If I spend 20 minutes per critique, than that is over 24 hours that I spent on photos that were never acknowledged at all. Wasted an entire day out of my life for nothing. Seems pretty crappy, but I am gratefull for the ones that did get marked helpful. It makes me feel like it hasn't been a total waste of time. I'm making some CC comments right now, as I wait (and wait and wait and wait) for this worm patch thing to Download. I'm going on hour 6 now. (dialup) Wish me luck.
~Heather~

inspzil

Olympus E-510

Sigma 50-500mm f/4.0-6.3 EX APO RF HSM for Olympus

08/17/2003 12:09:52 AM · #43

This is a topic that I've been thinking about lately. I just got back from a 4 day camping trip, and have about 40,000 things to do, but like always, I'm procrastinating by writing more stuff in the forums.

So anyway, I was doing a fair number of critiques for awhile. But like fellow critics have been saying, many of them are going pretty unnoticed. That sort of bugs me, but that's life eh? But I think that is a fairly important thing now when I break it down a little more.

1. Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about
2. Maybe no one respects my opinion even if I do know what I'm talking about.
3. Maybe no one has time to read them, since I'm pretty busy, why wouldn't everyone else be.

I can't blame people for not agreeing with what I have to say. I'm not an authority on photography. I'm not blowing people away with my work week after week. I have about a year of photography experience, all pretty much thanks to DPC.

I like doing critiques, but not to every picture. For whatever reason, I am finding that the photos I'm drawing to critique are getting worse and worse. I've considered taking requests, but I don't think that would be conducive to my schedule either. I'm finding it hard enough to vote on the minimum more or less leave a scad of critiques for people who are requesting them. Maybe when things calm down, I'll start doing that. For now, I'll just do a couple every week and listen to you guys complain about why your photos aren't getting done. Personally, I don't think you should be requesting a critique if you don't think there is a very real possibility of your photo pulling a 5.5. You think you can't learn anything because YOUR photo isn't being critiqued? That's BullS..t!! Read other critiques (find the critics who you respect and read what they have to say about other photos), write some critiques or comments. Critiques are a nice tool, but they may not be all you think they are. Some photos, I've just wanted to say "start over". Most of the learning process of DPC for me was to submit "the right" photo and not one that I thought was almost good enough. I learned my lessons, I took my lumps (and some weeks am still taking them), but I've made leaps and bounds of improvement, even if I'm not great. If you think you can't learn anything because you're not getting critiques on your photos, then you're limiting yourself. I'm probably not the authority that you want to be learning from, but there are definitely others in their infinite wisdom that will benefit you.

Done ranting - Bob

Message edited by author 2003-08-17 00:10:47.

camelotnorth

Nikon D70

08/17/2003 12:26:14 AM · #44

I just got a CC for my Citizen Kane. This is the first one in about 10 entries. I always thank the critiquer as I know it takes time especially if you are on dial up like me. I make copies of the critiques and try to apply the helpful suggestions to future photos. I've learned a lot this way. Keep up the good work.