|
| Author | Thread |
|
|
06/07/2007 03:06:13 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Skip:
---snip
no matter what you do, for whatever intention, it is going to be criticized. it is never going to be enough. it is never going to be fair. it is never going to be perfect. and it is always going to cause damage to something or somebody somewhere. today, rather than trying to work with what we have, rather than trying to find small successes and build on them, we are constantly faced by those that only want to shout us down and eviscerate us because we weren't completely successful, pure in intent, perfect, and fair. the problem is: everybody expects it, but it will never happen. and given the amount of angst and bitterness that results from our repeated failures, i am simply saying let's quit. let's let someone else do it because i'm tired of hearing about how bad a job we're doing and how bad we are. |
Didn't we try that? I seem to remember the same isolationist viewpoint as one of the reasons for wars in the in the early 20th century.
I don't think that taking our ball and going home is ever the answer.
If I had taken that stance in raising my children, then they most likely have turned out to be monsters. Didn't seem like I could ever do anything right in everybodies eyes. I could only do what I thought was right, and stick to it.
We as a nation, must do what we think is right. That is, until we think it's wrong.
Fickle, ain't we? |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 04:54:42 PM · #52 |
"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day"
|
|
|
|
06/07/2007 04:56:09 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Saying there are things such as justice in this world comforts us to go about our business and interactions with others as does religion which comforts us when faced with the reality of our own mortality. |
Perhaps that's true, but it seems like a gossamer curtain that the typical intellectual atheist would want to knock a hole in. Atheism has a lot going for it. It's simple, it's powerful, it's rational. But just like religion, it has "issues". When it comes to the widely held belief that "right and wrong" are more than a simple matter of opinion and that free will exists, then the convoluted answers belong on the atheist side.
I guess that was the small point of my post. I found it a powerful example that to the person the thread denounced the act as evil. Nobody said, "honor killings are a tradition that goes back centuries in this people group. If they deem it to be right then we have no business telling them it's wrong." We all believe that this is wrong. We also all believe that the "wrong" goes deeper than just our opinion. |
We can all be raised and engrained with morals with or without religion. That is what socialization is. In our society it is completely wrong, that is what is deeper than out opinion, the opinion of our society. If we grew up in that society and had THOSE ideals whacked into our heads we may not see anyting wrong with it, as I supposed they don't if they were able to commit such an act.
Normally I am weary of posing my cultural standards on other cultures, we don't know what it's like and can't judge other cultures based on ours, that is ethnocentrism. But of course this is an EXTREME case that most of the civilized world can agree where it IS time for someoen to step in. |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 05:02:11 PM · #54 |
I have to agree with  Skip. You can't change a culture, no matter how abhorrent, with guns, bribes or big sticks! Any country you care to mention has its laws, punishments and retribution. Not everyone has a western culture, nor want it.
What we see as barbaric, is normal to some countries. Can we change them, no, cos that is embedded in their beliefs. We can try to educate, not with the gun, but with reasoned intercourse between nations. But I am afraid these atrocities will continue.
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 17:03:24. |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 05:10:09 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
I have to agree with Skip. You can't change a culture, no matter how abhorrent, with guns, bribes or big sticks! Any country you care to mention has its laws, punishments and retribution. Not everyone has a western culture, nor want it.
What we see as barbaric, is normal to some countries. Can we change them, no, cos that is embedded in their beliefs. We can try to educate, not with the gun, but with reasoned intercourse between nations. But I am afraid these atrocities will continue. |
they can change as you said with education, that is what is know as progress. We are wasting all of this money on the war, why not fund education instead? Well because we'd have nothing to gain from it, not in the immediate, patriotic sense that we get from war.
my problems with Skips reply is it seems to me a whinny "nothing is ever good enough so lets hide in a hole" kind of attitude in response the the anti-war sentiments expressed... which completely ignores the fact that we are NOT over there for noble sentiments, we went over there on lies and big egos. That helps no one, it's not even trying. That's not reason to "give up" helping the world. It's reason to reevaluate what "help" is and realize we are not even remotely doing it. |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 05:10:53 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Normally I am weary of posing my cultural standards on other cultures, we don't know what it's like and can't judge other cultures based on ours, that is ethnocentrism. But of course this is an EXTREME case that most of the civilized world can agree where it IS time for someoen to step in. |
I'm afraid you really can't have your cake and eat it too. If our values are just our society's opinion, then it is no more valid or invalid than this tribe. Yet you claim that in certain cases ("extreme" ones) there is just plain "right and wrong" which is obvious to the majority of the world. Either you are saying there is, at least some of the time, something deeper than societal opinion or you are saying "there are times we just choose to inflict our values on others". I'm guessing in that case it's simply "might makes right" and that doesn't sit too well with me.
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 17:12:07.
|
|
|
|
06/07/2007 05:19:44 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Normally I am weary of posing my cultural standards on other cultures, we don't know what it's like and can't judge other cultures based on ours, that is ethnocentrism. But of course this is an EXTREME case that most of the civilized world can agree where it IS time for someoen to step in. |
I'm afraid you really can't have your cake and eat it too. If our values are just our society's opinion, then it is no more valid or invalid than this tribe. Yet you claim that in certain cases ("extreme" ones) there is just plain "right and wrong" which is obvious to the majority of the world. Either you are saying there is, at least some of the time, something deeper than societal opinion or you are saying "there are times we just choose to inflict our values on others". I'm guessing in that case it's simply "might makes right" and that doesn't sit too well with me. |
I understand your point but you cannont sway me on religion using this arguement. The extremety in this case is loss of life. We can't tell other cultures what food to eat and how to behave and what laws to have but when it comes the barbaric killings YES a line should be drawn. If that gut feeling was divine wouldn't THEY as humans have it too? It still is societal, and if you think that's biasing what i think we should and shouldn't step in on, well that fine with me. This is about a victim.
Might makes right was used against this girl. If she was all for it and took it as her societal standard, then who am I to say? But she was hurt, beaten, against her will just for loving someone. |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 05:43:57 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Normally I am weary of posing my cultural standards on other cultures, we don't know what it's like and can't judge other cultures based on ours, that is ethnocentrism. But of course this is an EXTREME case that most of the civilized world can agree where it IS time for someoen to step in. |
I'm afraid you really can't have your cake and eat it too. If our values are just our society's opinion, then it is no more valid or invalid than this tribe. Yet you claim that in certain cases ("extreme" ones) there is just plain "right and wrong" which is obvious to the majority of the world. Either you are saying there is, at least some of the time, something deeper than societal opinion or you are saying "there are times we just choose to inflict our values on others". I'm guessing in that case it's simply "might makes right" and that doesn't sit too well with me. |
I understand your point but you cannont sway me on religion using this arguement. The extremety in this case is loss of life. We can't tell other cultures what food to eat and how to behave and what laws to have but when it comes the barbaric killings YES a line should be drawn. If that gut feeling was divine wouldn't THEY as humans have it too? It still is societal, and if you think that's biasing what i think we should and shouldn't step in on, well that fine with me. This is about a victim.
Might makes right was used against this girl. If she was all for it and took it as her societal standard, then who am I to say? But she was hurt, beaten, against her will just for loving someone. |
Sorry to butt in here. Surely, she was aware of what she did and the effect it would have on her family, neighbours and culture. Who are we to tell others how to live their lives?? |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 05:48:05 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Normally I am weary of posing my cultural standards on other cultures, we don't know what it's like and can't judge other cultures based on ours, that is ethnocentrism. But of course this is an EXTREME case that most of the civilized world can agree where it IS time for someoen to step in. |
I'm afraid you really can't have your cake and eat it too. If our values are just our society's opinion, then it is no more valid or invalid than this tribe. Yet you claim that in certain cases ("extreme" ones) there is just plain "right and wrong" which is obvious to the majority of the world. Either you are saying there is, at least some of the time, something deeper than societal opinion or you are saying "there are times we just choose to inflict our values on others". I'm guessing in that case it's simply "might makes right" and that doesn't sit too well with me. |
I understand your point but you cannont sway me on religion using this arguement. The extremety in this case is loss of life. We can't tell other cultures what food to eat and how to behave and what laws to have but when it comes the barbaric killings YES a line should be drawn. If that gut feeling was divine wouldn't THEY as humans have it too? It still is societal, and if you think that's biasing what i think we should and shouldn't step in on, well that fine with me. This is about a victim.
Might makes right was used against this girl. If she was all for it and took it as her societal standard, then who am I to say? But she was hurt, beaten, against her will just for loving someone. |
Sorry to butt in here. Surely, she was aware of what she did and the effect it would have on her family, neighbours and culture. Who are we to tell others how to live their lives?? |
Surely we all make hard decisions in our lives, that was hers. By that who are they to tell her how to live her life? And no one is saying to go kill them for it. |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 05:50:16 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
I understand your point but you cannont sway me on religion using this arguement. The extremety in this case is loss of life. We can't tell other cultures what food to eat and how to behave and what laws to have but when it comes the barbaric killings YES a line should be drawn. If that gut feeling was divine wouldn't THEY as humans have it too? It still is societal, and if you think that's biasing what i think we should and shouldn't step in on, well that fine with me. This is about a victim.
Might makes right was used against this girl. If she was all for it and took it as her societal standard, then who am I to say? But she was hurt, beaten, against her will just for loving someone. |
Well, listen, I have no disagreement on the wrongness of this act. I just found it interesting that the act spurred such a strong reaction. To me that is a sign that there is more to the world than the physical. If there wasn't, why should we not see this act just as "it is what it is" and move on?
|
|
|
|
06/07/2007 06:01:35 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
I understand your point but you cannont sway me on religion using this arguement. The extremety in this case is loss of life. We can't tell other cultures what food to eat and how to behave and what laws to have but when it comes the barbaric killings YES a line should be drawn. If that gut feeling was divine wouldn't THEY as humans have it too? It still is societal, and if you think that's biasing what i think we should and shouldn't step in on, well that fine with me. This is about a victim.
Might makes right was used against this girl. If she was all for it and took it as her societal standard, then who am I to say? But she was hurt, beaten, against her will just for loving someone. |
Well, listen, I have no disagreement on the wrongness of this act. I just found it interesting that the act spurred such a strong reaction. To me that is a sign that there is more to the world than the physical. If there wasn't, why should we not see this act just as "it is what it is" and move on? |
I have no disagreement that there is more to the world than just the physical, maybe this sets me apart from most athiests, I'm not sure. I just don't think it has to tie in to a higher power. However with or without that, empathy is what makes this act to wrong in our minds, feeling her pain and how unjust this "punishment" was for following her heart. |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 06:05:05 PM · #62 |
I cannot understand the holier than thou attitude expressed in this thread. We, as westerners, are the biggest hypocrites of all. We seek to inflict our beliefs on others, regardless of whether this is wanted. Before we condemn others, we need to look at our own culture. Bush and the US refuse to join the G8 in carbon reductions, the EU dictates that bananas must be straight and numerous other stupid laws.
Be realistic, there are cultures that act differently to our own. Those who live in that culture understand just what is involved. I do not condon stoning to death of 17 year olds, but we cannot apply western standards on another country. No matter how much we deplore such acts, each culture has its own laws and penalties for breaking these laws.
I wish we could educate the world, but is our western culture any better than theirs??
|
|
|
|
06/07/2007 06:14:22 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
I cannot understand the holier than thou attitude expressed in this thread. We, as westerners, are the biggest hypocrites of all. We seek to inflict our beliefs on others, regardless of whether this is wanted. Before we condemn others, we need to look at our own culture. Bush and the US refuse to join the G8 in carbon reductions, the EU dictates that bananas must be straight and numerous other stupid laws.
Be realistic, there are cultures that act differently to our own. Those who live in that culture understand just what is involved. I do not condon stoning to death of 17 year olds, but we cannot apply western standards on another country. No matter how much we deplore such acts, each culture has its own laws and penalties for breaking these laws.
I wish we could educate the world, but is our western culture any better than theirs?? |
Hey I never defended the US. I am against a lot of what we do... see my feminist thread. We are certainly not the most advanced or best society. It's just in these extreme cases I think most of the WORLD not just the US would find these acts deplorable. Education on exceptance never hurt anyone. You want us to hold to the standard of not imposing our culture on others but think about that poor girl, their culture wasimposed on her brutally when she was attempting to make the leap in to accepting another culture.
|
|
|
|
06/07/2007 06:20:26 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by formerlee:
I cannot understand the holier than thou attitude expressed in this thread. We, as westerners, are the biggest hypocrites of all. We seek to inflict our beliefs on others, regardless of whether this is wanted. Before we condemn others, we need to look at our own culture. Bush and the US refuse to join the G8 in carbon reductions, the EU dictates that bananas must be straight and numerous other stupid laws.
Be realistic, there are cultures that act differently to our own. Those who live in that culture understand just what is involved. I do not condon stoning to death of 17 year olds, but we cannot apply western standards on another country. No matter how much we deplore such acts, each culture has its own laws and penalties for breaking these laws.
I wish we could educate the world, but is our western culture any better than theirs?? |
Hey I never defended the US. I am against a lot of what we do... see my feminist thread. We are certainly not the most advanced or best society. It's just in these extreme cases I think most of the WORLD not just the US would find these acts deplorable. Education on exceptance never hurt anyone. You want us to hold to the standard of not imposing our culture on others but think about that poor girl, their culture wasimposed on her brutally when she was attempting to make the leap in to accepting another culture. |
Who is the most advanced and best society? |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 06:22:55 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by formerlee:
I cannot understand the holier than thou attitude expressed in this thread. We, as westerners, are the biggest hypocrites of all. We seek to inflict our beliefs on others, regardless of whether this is wanted. Before we condemn others, we need to look at our own culture. Bush and the US refuse to join the G8 in carbon reductions, the EU dictates that bananas must be straight and numerous other stupid laws.
Be realistic, there are cultures that act differently to our own. Those who live in that culture understand just what is involved. I do not condon stoning to death of 17 year olds, but we cannot apply western standards on another country. No matter how much we deplore such acts, each culture has its own laws and penalties for breaking these laws.
I wish we could educate the world, but is our western culture any better than theirs?? |
Hey I never defended the US. I am against a lot of what we do... see my feminist thread. We are certainly not the most advanced or best society. It's just in these extreme cases I think most of the WORLD not just the US would find these acts deplorable. Education on exceptance never hurt anyone. You want us to hold to the standard of not imposing our culture on others but think about that poor girl, their culture wasimposed on her brutally when she was attempting to make the leap in to accepting another culture. |
Who is the most advanced and best society? |
oh you scoundral. It's obviously Sweden.
lol... no. there isn't one, that's the point, and you know it. I cry instigator!! |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 06:24:13 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by formerlee:
I cannot understand the holier than thou attitude expressed in this thread. We, as westerners, are the biggest hypocrites of all. We seek to inflict our beliefs on others, regardless of whether this is wanted. Before we condemn others, we need to look at our own culture. Bush and the US refuse to join the G8 in carbon reductions, the EU dictates that bananas must be straight and numerous other stupid laws.
Be realistic, there are cultures that act differently to our own. Those who live in that culture understand just what is involved. I do not condon stoning to death of 17 year olds, but we cannot apply western standards on another country. No matter how much we deplore such acts, each culture has its own laws and penalties for breaking these laws.
I wish we could educate the world, but is our western culture any better than theirs?? |
Hey I never defended the US. I am against a lot of what we do... see my feminist thread. We are certainly not the most advanced or best society. It's just in these extreme cases I think most of the WORLD not just the US would find these acts deplorable. Education on exceptance never hurt anyone. You want us to hold to the standard of not imposing our culture on others but think about that poor girl, their culture wasimposed on her brutally when she was attempting to make the leap in to accepting another culture. |
Who is the most advanced and best society? |
oh you scoundral. It's obviously Sweden.
lol... no. there isn't one, that's the point, and you know it. I cry instigator!! |
be careful with your words Mon ;)
sometimes they can betray you. |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 06:26:32 PM · #67 |
hmm, guess I'll try a little harder to be more like Steve.
He knows exaclty what he means to say. :) |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 06:33:56 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
hmm, guess I'll try a little harder to be more like Steve.
He knows exaclty what he means to say. :) |
Took me a while to get there, just ask some of the older members of this site. :/
Oh, and it's easier online if you take at least 2 minutes to think before you post. In daily conversation I still screw up a LOT.
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 18:35:19. |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 07:04:55 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
I cannot understand the holier than thou attitude expressed in this thread. We, as westerners, are the biggest hypocrites of all. We seek to inflict our beliefs on others, regardless of whether this is wanted. Before we condemn others, we need to look at our own culture. Bush and the US refuse to join the G8 in carbon reductions, the EU dictates that bananas must be straight and numerous other stupid laws.
Be realistic, there are cultures that act differently to our own. Those who live in that culture understand just what is involved. I do not condon stoning to death of 17 year olds, but we cannot apply western standards on another country. No matter how much we deplore such acts, each culture has its own laws and penalties for breaking these laws.
I wish we could educate the world, but is our western culture any better than theirs?? |
Exactly, It always amazes me how people in the west think we are civilised and those in 'third world countries' are not and then try and impose on these countries our ways, religion etc. I find what they did to that girl beyond words and could never understand why but its their laws not ours.
|
|
|
|
06/07/2007 07:24:12 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
Sorry to butt in here. Surely, she was aware of what she did and the effect it would have on her family, neighbours and culture. Who are we to tell others how to live their lives?? |
Who are we? I think my faith in mankind died a little reading that statement. My name is Dana, thats who I am, and I am here to tell everyone who will listen, no matter your religion, no matter what culture you are from, YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING, and that was MURDER. Plain and Simple, Murder. Do we all not bleed the same color? Do we not all breathe the same air? We are MANKIND, and the very essence of who we are KNOW that things like these are wrong. I have not given up hope. |
|
|
|
06/07/2007 07:38:05 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, listen, I have no disagreement on the wrongness of this act. I just found it interesting that the act spurred such a strong reaction.
|
Interesting perhaps, but hardly surprising. Many of us mentally place ourself in the macabre scene. A father, a mother, or a sister? To see a loved one murdered couldn't help but provoke the strongest reaction. Personally, the murder of a loved one, along with self-defense are some of the few things that could prompt me to kill another human being.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
To me that is a sign that there is more to the world than the physical.
|
Well, that's cool. I can't see it myself. But, I see a superior force in the universe when I contemplate the existence of DNA. How could this have come about on it's own? But probably that doesn't impress you at all. Just Darwin, right?
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If there wasn't, why should we not see this act just as "it is what it is" and move on? |
I did, and most of us will move on. Nothing I can do about it but briefly dwell on the horror and be thankful that particular horror doesn't live too close to me.
I thought you turned rant off Doc. ;)
Still looking for morality in religion? heheh
|
|
|
|
06/07/2007 07:46:08 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
I thought you turned rant off Doc. ;)
Still looking for morality in religion? heheh |
Luckily this hasn't been moved yet... :)
|
|
|
|
06/07/2007 07:51:22 PM · #73 |
if we knew we wouldnt spew...
|
|
|
|
Current Server Time: 08/18/2025 04:23:31 PM  |
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 08/18/2025 04:23:31 PM EDT.
|
