Feminism, are women equal yet? (short answer, no!)

06/07/2007 04:19:44 AM · #276

ugh here we go. Instead of talking about the issue at hand lets get into why you disagree with the feminist movement and how we are all attention seaking hounds.

No. That is not the case. We are not so naive to think that men are not involved in baby making processes. It IS naive however to think that the people who cary the babies in their wombs for 9 months wouldn't care to focus on that issue.

Let me say again, just because it is a feminist issue does NOT mean feminists think that is only a concern of women, just as was argued again and again with the talks of rape and domestic abuse. It just means that it is an issue of interest for women, as is obvious. Edit to add: Women are the ones that have to deal with the consequences if abortion is banned, sure men too but not as much as women. You CANNOT deny this. And men can't get pregnant. Think of rape victims that need an abortion. Think it should be up to the father then?

Need I also remind you that there are male feminists.

Now on to the ACTUAL debate.

Message edited by author 2007-06-07 04:27:31.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

06/07/2007 04:19:53 AM · #277

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Are you referring to reproduction where there is no sperm to fertilize the egg?

cloning?

Message edited by author 2007-06-07 04:20:09.

06/07/2007 04:28:45 AM · #278

Originally posted by escapetooz:

No. That is not the case. We are not so naive to think that men are not involved in baby making processes. It IS naive however to think that the people who cary the babies in their wombs for 9 months wouldn't care to focus on that issue.

If babies/fetuses/whatever could talk they'd probably say how naive and selfish the parents are.

06/07/2007 04:34:45 AM · #279

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
No. That is not the case. We are not so naive to think that men are not involved in baby making processes. It IS naive however to think that the people who cary the babies in their wombs for 9 months wouldn't care to focus on that issue.

If babies/fetuses/whatever could talk they'd probably say how naive and selfish the parents are.

lol. dipping your toe in the debate I see? Let me say this, personally I don't think I could ever go through with an abortion, unless it was a rape situation or some other unforseeable situation. HOWEVER that is a personal choice. Is abortion abused? Yes, I have heard stories. But in general it needs to be kept around because no one knows every situation and there should be no judge on who is allowed and who isn't.

Also there is the issue of back alley abortions. They will happen and have happened, esp in situations where thre are restrictions on the age of a woman that needs an abortion. Women get hurt.

06/07/2007 04:43:32 AM · #280

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
No. That is not the case. We are not so naive to think that men are not involved in baby making processes. It IS naive however to think that the people who cary the babies in their wombs for 9 months wouldn't care to focus on that issue.

If babies/fetuses/whatever could talk they'd probably say how naive and selfish the parents are.

lol. dipping your toe in the debate I see? Let me say this, personally I don't think I could ever go through with an abortion, unless it was a rape situation or some other unforseeable situation. HOWEVER that is a personal choice. Is abortion abused? Yes, I have heard stories. But in general it needs to be kept around because no one knows every situation and there should be no judge on who is allowed and who isn't.

Also there is the issue of back alley abortions. They will happen and have happened, esp in situations where thre are restrictions on the age of a woman that needs an abortion. Women get hurt.

Yes just testing the waters. :P FWIW, I agree with what you said. I am also of the opinion that some things people will always do no matter what like drugs, drinking, etc so it is foolish to think a ban would ever work even if every valid reason for an abortion was eliminated.

Message edited by author 2007-06-07 04:44:01.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

06/07/2007 04:49:17 AM · #281

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
No. That is not the case. We are not so naive to think that men are not involved in baby making processes. It IS naive however to think that the people who cary the babies in their wombs for 9 months wouldn't care to focus on that issue.

If babies/fetuses/whatever could talk they'd probably say how naive and selfish the parents are.

lol. dipping your toe in the debate I see? Let me say this, personally I don't think I could ever go through with an abortion, unless it was a rape situation or some other unforseeable situation. HOWEVER that is a personal choice. Is abortion abused? Yes, I have heard stories. But in general it needs to be kept around because no one knows every situation and there should be no judge on who is allowed and who isn't.

Also there is the issue of back alley abortions. They will happen and have happened, esp in situations where thre are restrictions on the age of a woman that needs an abortion. Women get hurt.

Yes just testing the waters. :P FWIW, I agree with what you said. I am also of the opinion that some things people will always do no matter what like drugs, drinking, etc so it is foolish to think a ban would ever work even if every valid reason for an abortion was eliminated.

Hence why abstinence only classes DON'T WORK. It's common sense. Teens are gunna do it anyway, why not EDUCATE them on how to be safe. People of the opinion that teaching safety encourages sex just blow my mind... yet they can watch all the pop stars and movies they want.... not to mention the basic biology of it all.

now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

06/07/2007 05:48:19 AM · #282

Since you want to discuss reproductive rights, I'll agree with you that abortion does need to be safe and legal, though under what restrictions I don't know. There are much better ways to prevent unwanted pregancies. My opinion is that abortion should be the last resort.

Since this reproductive choice is almost always portrayed as a woman's right and that discussion has gone on ad finitum. I'd like to bring up the male point of view and ask the question: Why is the choice to be a parent the woman's?

Assuming that the sexual encounter was consensual, rape is another consideration altogether, and a pregnancy occurs, why is the choice to bring that child into the world only the woman's. The woman can end the pregnancy without consultating the father, regardless of the reason, depriving the man of his opportunity for fatherhood. She can also choose to have the baby and establish that the man is indeed the father and force him to support that child until the child is 18, regardless of the man's desire NOT to be a father.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

06/07/2007 05:53:57 AM · #283

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Since this reproductive choice is almost always portrayed as a woman's right and that discussion has gone on ad finitum. I'd like to bring up the male point of view and ask the question: Why is the choice to be a parent the woman's?

Assuming that the sexual encounter was consensual, rape is another consideration altogether, and a pregnancy occurs, why is the choice to bring that child into the world only the woman's. The woman can end the pregnancy without consultating the father, regardless of the reason, depriving the man of his opportunity for fatherhood. She can also choose to have the baby and establish that the man is indeed the father and force him to support that child until the child is 18, regardless of the man's desire NOT to be a father.

lemme look into my crystal ball... ahh, the feminists are going to defend themselves using the "it's the female's body" she got rights issue...

06/07/2007 06:03:15 AM · #284

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Since this reproductive choice is almost always portrayed as a woman's right and that discussion has gone on ad finitum. I'd like to bring up the male point of view and ask the question: Why is the choice to be a parent the woman's?

Assuming that the sexual encounter was consensual, rape is another consideration altogether, and a pregnancy occurs, why is the choice to bring that child into the world only the woman's. The woman can end the pregnancy without consultating the father, regardless of the reason, depriving the man of his opportunity for fatherhood. She can also choose to have the baby and establish that the man is indeed the father and force him to support that child until the child is 18, regardless of the man's desire NOT to be a father.

lemme look into my crystal ball... ahh, the feminists are going to defend themselves using the "it's the female's body" she got rights issue...

does she not have rights? what is your issue with feminist that you have to attack everything? I really don't understand.

ok back to the legitimate question posed by spazmo. I think in a relationship situation on a personal and moral level the woman SHOULD consult with the dad. But ultimitaly if the woman wants an abortion and it is legal, how is it fair to let the father say he wants the baby and have her go through the childbearing if she does not want to? That would be denying her rights that say a single mother would not be denied. So morally I think it should be a joint decision in a lot of cases, but ultimitaly legally and also on a personal level it is not viable to think the mother should HAVE to have a baby she does not wany simply because the father says so.

06/07/2007 06:06:51 AM · #285

Then what about this for a compromise. If the guy didn't want to be a father but she goes through with it anyway he is absolved from all obligations financial or otherwise associated with said child.

Message edited by author 2007-06-07 06:07:33.

06/07/2007 06:09:15 AM · #286

Originally posted by yanko:

Then what about this for a compromise. If the guy didn't want to be a father but she goes through with it anyway he is absolved from all obligations financial or otherwise associated with said child.

oy. So he can be all for it and make the decision and then chicken out and say he wanted no part? There is absolutely no way to prove or enforce this. It could just be used and a giant gaping loop hole on male responsibility.

06/07/2007 06:10:04 AM · #287

ps: all for safe sex and abortion as a last resort, that's why I mentioned the other issues I did.

:)

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

06/07/2007 06:10:18 AM · #288

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by yanko:
Then what about this for a compromise. If the guy didn't want to be a father but she goes through with it anyway he is absolved from all obligations financial or otherwise associated with said child.

oy. So he can be all for it and make the decision and then chicken out and say he wanted no part? There is absolutely no way to prove or enforce this. It could just be used and a giant gaping loop hole on male responsibility.

Well up until the birth of course. :)

ETA: Hey at least that will give the guys one giant gaping loop hole for a change. :P

Message edited by author 2007-06-07 06:12:22.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

06/07/2007 06:19:04 AM · #289

Originally posted by escapetooz:

does she not have rights? what is your issue with feminist that you have to attack everything? I really don't understand.

i. i have no issues with women rights
ii. i have issues with feminists and their views

for item (ii) i'm pretty sure many people share the same sentiments, and it's not really that puzzling, why.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

06/07/2007 07:05:48 AM · #290

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Since this reproductive choice is almost always portrayed as a woman's right and that discussion has gone on ad finitum. I'd like to bring up the male point of view and ask the question: Why is the choice to be a parent the woman's?

Assuming that the sexual encounter was consensual, rape is another consideration altogether, and a pregnancy occurs, why is the choice to bring that child into the world only the woman's. The woman can end the pregnancy without consultating the father, regardless of the reason, depriving the man of his opportunity for fatherhood. She can also choose to have the baby and establish that the man is indeed the father and force him to support that child until the child is 18, regardless of the man's desire NOT to be a father.

lemme look into my crystal ball... ahh, the feminists are going to defend themselves using the "it's the female's body" she got rights issue...

does she not have rights? what is your issue with feminist that you have to attack everything? I really don't understand.

ok back to the legitimate question posed by spazmo. I think in a relationship situation on a personal and moral level the woman SHOULD consult with the dad. But ultimitaly if the woman wants an abortion and it is legal, how is it fair to let the father say he wants the baby and have her go through the childbearing if she does not want to? That would be denying her rights that say a single mother would not be denied. So morally I think it should be a joint decision in a lot of cases, but ultimitaly legally and also on a personal level it is not viable to think the mother should HAVE to have a baby she does not wany simply because the father says so.

So, the woman can deny the man his right to be a parent, or, on the other hand, force him into parenthood against his will, yet the man has no similar say in the matter?

She may not want to have the baby, but she did willingly have sex with the father, right? Unless she is of limited mental ability, they both must know that pregnancy is one possible consequence of having sex, regardless of precautions taken beforehand.

I would say that leaving that choice entirely up to the woman is absolutely biased AGAINST the man.

06/07/2007 04:29:33 PM · #291

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
does she not have rights? what is your issue with feminist that you have to attack everything? I really don't understand.

i. i have no issues with women rights
ii. i have issues with feminists and their views

for item (ii) i'm pretty sure many people share the same sentiments, and it's not really that puzzling, why.

then enlighten me. is it because of the stereotypes of feminist or it's because you intimitely know many feminists and their views and disagree with them?

it is puzzling why it's so crazy to want equality.

06/07/2007 04:36:20 PM · #292

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Since this reproductive choice is almost always portrayed as a woman's right and that discussion has gone on ad finitum. I'd like to bring up the male point of view and ask the question: Why is the choice to be a parent the woman's?

Assuming that the sexual encounter was consensual, rape is another consideration altogether, and a pregnancy occurs, why is the choice to bring that child into the world only the woman's. The woman can end the pregnancy without consultating the father, regardless of the reason, depriving the man of his opportunity for fatherhood. She can also choose to have the baby and establish that the man is indeed the father and force him to support that child until the child is 18, regardless of the man's desire NOT to be a father.

lemme look into my crystal ball... ahh, the feminists are going to defend themselves using the "it's the female's body" she got rights issue...

does she not have rights? what is your issue with feminist that you have to attack everything? I really don't understand.

ok back to the legitimate question posed by spazmo. I think in a relationship situation on a personal and moral level the woman SHOULD consult with the dad. But ultimitaly if the woman wants an abortion and it is legal, how is it fair to let the father say he wants the baby and have her go through the childbearing if she does not want to? That would be denying her rights that say a single mother would not be denied. So morally I think it should be a joint decision in a lot of cases, but ultimitaly legally and also on a personal level it is not viable to think the mother should HAVE to have a baby she does not wany simply because the father says so.

So, the woman can deny the man his right to be a parent, or, on the other hand, force him into parenthood against his will, yet the man has no similar say in the matter?

She may not want to have the baby, but she did willingly have sex with the father, right? Unless she is of limited mental ability, they both must know that pregnancy is one possible consequence of having sex, regardless of precautions taken beforehand.

I would say that leaving that choice entirely up to the woman is absolutely biased AGAINST the man.

if the shoe were on the other foot there is no way men would be fine with BIRTHING a child against their will. A woman is not a vessle to carry men's children. If a man wants a child he finds someone on the same page as him and plans for it. He can't be part of an "accident" and then MAKE the woman keep it. That is just wrong plain and simple.

yes it takes 2 to have sex but the man does not have to deal with the immense physical, emotional, and lifechanging burden of child bearing. of COURSE i condone safe sex and in a perfect world accidents wouldn't happen, but they do, and just because the man might somehow decide along the way that he wants a child, he can't just use a woman for it. Just as it WRONG for a woman to pretend she is on birth control and purposely get pregnant. This happens and OF COURSE men throw a fit, they have every right to. So why say make a woman have a child? Could be the same thing, the man could pretend he shoots blanks and impregnate her, then she is required to carry the baby because HE says so?

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

06/07/2007 04:51:31 PM · #293

Originally posted by escapetooz:

[
it is puzzling why it's so crazy to want equality.

I might be due to the fact that some people perceive (rightly or wrongly) feminists as wanting equality no matter what cost, and in some instances by wanting rights and privileges over and above those available to society as a whole.

Enlightenment is the key to advancing a cause, and unfortunately there have been some rather vociferous feminists whose behaviour may have done a disservice to the feminist cause, and had a negative impact on meaningful discourse.

I had the great pleasure of partaking in Womens' Studies classes at one of the local universities and found the experience interesting, rewarding and certainly educational. I must admit however, that I truly felt like a pariah at the onset, and that the reception I got had everything to do with my gender and nothing to do with my views or beliefs.

Sadly, there are feminists who view the male species as fiends and obstacles to their aims, and have no interest in engaging in meaningful tÃªte-Ã -tÃªte discussions. Radicalism has seldom spawned pro-active activities.

I am all for equal rights... for everyone regardless of race, colour, creed, sexual orientation or gender, but sometimes cringe at the "special rights" afforded certain groups.

Ray