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05/21/2007 12:58:19 AM · #151 |
Originally posted by Zeuss:
"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
- Pope Leo X |
This has been largely debunked as a true quote of Leo X. Though a mainstay of lesser-educated skeptics, it is not a genuine quote, but originates from a contemporary work of satirical fiction.
edit: contemporary to Leo X that is.
Message edited by author 2007-05-21 00:59:56. |
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05/21/2007 01:01:21 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Zeuss:
"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
- Pope Leo X |
This has been largely debunked as a true quote of Leo X. Though a mainstay of lesser-educated skeptics, it is not a genuine quote, but originates from a contemporary work of satirical fiction.
edit: contemporary to Leo X that is. |
Show me your source, I'd love to see it. Thank you in advance!
Carl |
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05/21/2007 01:04:57 AM · #153 |
Originally posted by Zeuss:
Show me your source, I'd love to see it. |
It's common knowledge. Why not use Google? I'll bet you got that quote from some amateur skeptic's website, didn't you? Try theWikipedia article on Leo X for starters. |
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05/21/2007 01:26:06 AM · #154 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I am simply through with the thread unless one of you can repeat the following sentence without adding your own "qualifier" after.
Religion has done good in the world.
If you cannot even admit this then I have no time or use for this discussion. If you (and I'm not just pointing at Louis) cannot admit this then your position is so absurdly indefensible that I will not waste my time. |
I guess we'll see ya then. Because you've apparently taken your ball and gone home like so many before you, because like so many others you simply cannot abide a contrary view and brook no dissent when it comes to religion, you won't get to read the answer I suppose, which is just as well. It's best answered by Christopher Hitchens from the first chapter of his recent book:
"Religion spoke its last intelligible or noble or inspiring words a long time ago: either that or it mutated into an admirable but nebulous humanism, as did, say, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a brave Lutheran pastor hanged by the Nazis for his refusal to collude with them. We shall have no more prophets or sages from the ancient quarter, which is why devotions of today are only the echoing repetitions of yesterday, sometimes ratcheted up to screaming point so as to ward off the terrible emptiness."
No good comes from religion, only divisiveness, bullying, arrogance, bluster, and violence. These good deeds you imagine originating from religion do not. They originate from human beings. |
Ahh, but there is a present day prophet. Gordon B. Hinkley. And there is a religion that professes that ALL, save those that have a complete knowledge of God and deny Him, shall be resurected and gain eternal life.
Much good comes from the present-day revelations given from God to His prophet. |
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05/21/2007 02:14:18 AM · #155 |
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
Ahh, but there is a present day prophet. Gordon B. Hinkley. And there is a religion that professes that ALL, save those that have a complete knowledge of God and deny Him, shall be resurected and gain eternal life.
Much good comes from the present-day revelations given from God to His prophet. |
Do you really believe that? Mormonism is a white supremist male dominated religion founded by a fraud! |
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05/21/2007 02:28:56 AM · #156 |
Stay with me here, rjkstesch, I'll show you some stuff you need to know. And if you can prove me wrong, I'll listen and learn, too.
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05/21/2007 05:17:32 AM · #157 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I am simply through with the thread unless one of you can repeat the following sentence without adding your own "qualifier" after.
Religion has done good in the world.
If you cannot even admit this then I have no time or use for this discussion. If you (and I'm not just pointing at Louis) cannot admit this then your position is so absurdly indefensible that I will not waste my time. |
How about
"Good things have been done in the name of religion"?
That is patently true.
My problem with your language is that it imports the sense that, on balance, religion has been a force for good. I think that that is very debateable: very many "bad" things have been done in the name of religion (of course, from the perspective of a fundamental believer, your view of "good" may be twisted (eg the Crusades, 9/11, centuries of persecution for various types of non-conformists, seizure of bits of "holy land", murder of unbelievers etc etc)).
Incidentally, on the sport analogy, I also think spectator sport is a bit of a waste of time... (!)
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05/21/2007 05:24:31 AM · #158 |
Originally posted by Zeuss:
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger (circa 4 B.C.E - 65 C.E) |
i've long understood the underlying workings of religion. and this quote rather sums it all up nicely. unappealing truth. but to ask me to tell this truth to a dying man who lost all hope, it would be evil. |
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05/21/2007 08:30:15 AM · #159 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by Zeuss:
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger (circa 4 B.C.E - 65 C.E) |
i've long understood the underlying workings of religion. and this quote rather sums it all up nicely. unappealing truth. but to ask me to tell this truth to a dying man who lost all hope, it would be evil. |
I think that this says something about compassion rather than the arguments on the validity of religious expression.
Mortality is not the easiest thing to accept - although it is almost certainly the reality. I wouldn't advocate being uncompassionate in the way that you suggest - it isn't helpful (after all, death bed conversions are the preserve of religion).
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05/21/2007 08:43:34 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by Zeuss:
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
Ahh, but there is a present day prophet. Gordon B. Hinkley. And there is a religion that professes that ALL, save those that have a complete knowledge of God and deny Him, shall be resurected and gain eternal life.
Much good comes from the present-day revelations given from God to His prophet. |
Do you really believe that? Mormonism is a white supremist male dominated religion founded by a fraud! |
Yes, I do believe that, with a belief founded in spiritual knowledge.
Knowledge has 3 levels. 1) Senses: that which we can see, hear, taste, etc. Such knowledge is very good, but can be deceptive. Illusions, relections, echoes, etc. can trick our senses into believing something that is not true. 2) Intellectual: that which we can produce within our mind using our senses and more complex information. Example, black holes are known on an intellectual knowledge level, based on observation, mathematical principles, etc. This level of knowledge is stronger than sensory, but can be twisted and turned by perspective, lack of information, etc. 3) Spiritual knowledge: that which is produced as the spirit reveals knowledge to our body. Our spirits being on an equal dimension with diety and residing within our bodies, can communicate with both. Our bodies will receive the knowledge through physical methods, thoughts, feelings, physical sensation, etc. Basically, communication that something is good, feels good. Warmth, calm, peace. When something is not right, it feels wrong. Confusion, disquiet, almost painful, ill at ease. Spiritual knowledge takes a person willing to listen and recognize what is being communicated, but when it is received, carries more credibility and is far deeper than sensory or intellectual knowledge. It is why "believers" will hold on to their knowledge long after the intellectual debates have played out. There are things that are true and permeate a person's very being.
Obviously, when debating, we're talking on an intellectual level. There is no way for me to share my spiritual knowledge, unless you are willing to open yourself up to receive your own communication.
As a patriarchal order, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (oft times referred to as "Mormons") could be referred to as male dominated. "White supremist" is off. "founded by a fraud" is patently untrue, unless you are calling God, the Father, and his son, Jesus Christ, untrue. Then we are talking on a whole different level.
But, of course, you have been saying they don't exist. Sounds like we're talking on different levels. |
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05/21/2007 02:54:13 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
Originally posted by Zeuss:
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
Ahh, but there is a present day prophet. Gordon B. Hinkley. And there is a religion that professes that ALL, save those that have a complete knowledge of God and deny Him, shall be resurected and gain eternal life.
Much good comes from the present-day revelations given from God to His prophet. |
Do you really believe that? Mormonism is a white supremist male dominated religion founded by a fraud! |
Yes, I do believe that, with a belief founded in spiritual knowledge.
Knowledge has 3 levels. 1) Senses: that which we can see, hear, taste, etc. Such knowledge is very good, but can be deceptive. Illusions, relections, echoes, etc. can trick our senses into believing something that is not true. 2) Intellectual: that which we can produce within our mind using our senses and more complex information. Example, black holes are known on an intellectual knowledge level, based on observation, mathematical principles, etc. This level of knowledge is stronger than sensory, but can be twisted and turned by perspective, lack of information, etc. 3) Spiritual knowledge: that which is produced as the spirit reveals knowledge to our body. Our spirits being on an equal dimension with diety and residing within our bodies, can communicate with both. Our bodies will receive the knowledge through physical methods, thoughts, feelings, physical sensation, etc. Basically, communication that something is good, feels good. Warmth, calm, peace. When something is not right, it feels wrong. Confusion, disquiet, almost painful, ill at ease. Spiritual knowledge takes a person willing to listen and recognize what is being communicated, but when it is received, carries more credibility and is far deeper than sensory or intellectual knowledge. It is why "believers" will hold on to their knowledge long after the intellectual debates have played out. There are things that are true and permeate a person's very being.
Obviously, when debating, we're talking on an intellectual level. There is no way for me to share my spiritual knowledge, unless you are willing to open yourself up to receive your own communication.
As a patriarchal order, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (oft times referred to as "Mormons") could be referred to as male dominated. "White supremist" is off. "founded by a fraud" is patently untrue, unless you are calling God, the Father, and his son, Jesus Christ, untrue. Then we are talking on a whole different level.
But, of course, you have been saying they don't exist. Sounds like we're talking on different levels. |
Let me narrow the gap.
The credibility of "God, the Father, and his son, Jesus Christ" is a different subject we can hit later.
White supremist is NOT off. According to the Mormons, dark skin is a curse. But if they live a good Mormon life, it is "corrected" at death, and they turn white. Tell that to an African-American and see if you don't get your jaw broken.
Example:
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race -- that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree."
Book of Mormon (1830 edition), 2 Nephi, Chapter XII, p. 117.
"And the Gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, ...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people. "
Note: This passage from the original Book of Mormon has subsequently been altered by Mormonism's leaders. The Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 30:6, now reads: "they shall be a PURE and a delightsome people." Substituting "pure" for "white" seems to indicate that Mormonism considers those two words to be interchangeable. The logical assumption, then, is that Mormonism also considers "NON-white" to be the equivalent of "impure." Even in this attempt to obscure its racist "scripture," Mormonism continues to divulge its underlying doctrine of white supremacy.
Ms. Tesch, that's bigotry. It attempts to erase the heritage of the people it hurts.
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05/21/2007 03:09:49 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
Originally posted by Zeuss:
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
Ahh, but there is a present day prophet. Gordon B. Hinkley. And there is a religion that professes that ALL, save those that have a complete knowledge of God and deny Him, shall be resurected and gain eternal life.
Much good comes from the present-day revelations given from God to His prophet. |
Do you really believe that? Mormonism is a white supremist male dominated religion founded by a fraud! |
Yes, I do believe that, with a belief founded in spiritual knowledge.
Knowledge has 3 levels. 1) Senses: that which we can see, hear, taste, etc. Such knowledge is very good, but can be deceptive. Illusions, relections, echoes, etc. can trick our senses into believing something that is not true. 2) Intellectual: that which we can produce within our mind using our senses and more complex information. Example, black holes are known on an intellectual knowledge level, based on observation, mathematical principles, etc. This level of knowledge is stronger than sensory, but can be twisted and turned by perspective, lack of information, etc. 3) Spiritual knowledge: that which is produced as the spirit reveals knowledge to our body. Our spirits being on an equal dimension with diety and residing within our bodies, can communicate with both. Our bodies will receive the knowledge through physical methods, thoughts, feelings, physical sensation, etc. Basically, communication that something is good, feels good. Warmth, calm, peace. When something is not right, it feels wrong. Confusion, disquiet, almost painful, ill at ease. Spiritual knowledge takes a person willing to listen and recognize what is being communicated, but when it is received, carries more credibility and is far deeper than sensory or intellectual knowledge. It is why "believers" will hold on to their knowledge long after the intellectual debates have played out. There are things that are true and permeate a person's very being.
Obviously, when debating, we're talking on an intellectual level. There is no way for me to share my spiritual knowledge, unless you are willing to open yourself up to receive your own communication.
As a patriarchal order, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (oft times referred to as "Mormons") could be referred to as male dominated. "White supremist" is off. "founded by a fraud" is patently untrue, unless you are calling God, the Father, and his son, Jesus Christ, untrue. Then we are talking on a whole different level.
But, of course, you have been saying they don't exist. Sounds like we're talking on different levels. |
The "spiritual knowledge" experience to which you refer, sometimes also called the "God experience" or "cosmic consciousness" is, I believe, an altered state of awareness that most people have access to and that can be accessed or induced in a variety of ways, including through meditation, sensory deprivation techniques, religious ritual practices, halluciogenic drugs, a combination of deep breathing exercises and auditory stimulation, and most recently through stimulation of specific areas of the brain with electromagnetic pulses. The individual experiences a sense of transcendent well-being, sublime peace, serenity, ecstasy, unity, oneness.
The point is that this is not exclusively a religious experience. People who are not religious and who don't believe in a god -- yes, even atheists! -- can and have experienced this altered state of consciousness or awareness. Studies have shown that Christians who experience this altered state for the first time immediately will say, "Jesus Christ spoke to me" or "I felt the presence of Jesus Christ." But a Muslim will say, "Allah spoke to me." Likewise for someone who believes in past lives: "I have lived a past life." So it is not necessarily evidence for the truth of any particular belief, and people ascribe meaning to it based on their cultural context and prior belief system.
There have been many, many studies of this phenomenon, and if I can find some references online, I'll post them later.
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05/21/2007 03:13:43 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
"founded by a fraud" is patently untrue, unless you are calling God, the Father, and his son, Jesus Christ, untrue. Then we are talking on a whole different level. |
Before Joseph Smith Jr. started his church, he and his father used peep stones to fool the public about locations of burried treasures, for a price, of course. He was taken to court, tried and found guilty (a misdemeaner) and ordered by the court to stop. I correlate this to his "discovery" of the golden plates, a burried treasure. (Something's fishy here...)
The "Holy" books he then authored plagiarized the Bible. The book of Mosiah, chapter 14, in the Book of Mormon, is a reproduction of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah the prophet, and 3 Nephi 13 copies Matthew 6 almost word-for-word. Now how can the Book of Mormon, translated from plates supposedly more than 10 centuries old, contain the exact text from a book that hasn̢۪t been written yet, the KJV of the Bible?
There are other instances of plagiarisms from the King James Bible including paraphrases of certain verses. One of these verses (1 John 5:7) is reproduced in 3 Nephi 11:27. The only difficulty with the paraphrase here is that the text is considered by scholars to be an interpolation missing from all the major manuscripts of the New Testament, but present in the King James Bible, from which Smith paraphrased it not knowing the difference.
Another example of this type of error is found in 3 Nephi 11:33–34, and is almost a direct quotation from Mark 16:16, a passage regarded by many New Testament Greek scholars as one of three possible endings to that gospel. But Joseph Smith was not aware of this, so he even copied in translational variations, another proof that neither he nor the alleged golden plates were inspired of God.
In the third chapter of the book of Acts, Peter’s classic sermon at Pentecost paraphrases Deuteronomy 18:15–19. While in the process of writing 3 Nephi, Joseph Smith puts Peter’s paraphrase in the mouth of Christ when the Savior was allegedly preaching to the Nephites. The prophet overlooked the fact that at the time that Christ was allegedly preaching His sermon, the sermon itself had not yet been preached by Peter.
There's more, but I think I've made my point. If God is perfect, he wasn't present at the creation of the Book of Mormon.
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05/21/2007 03:20:39 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
The point is that this is not exclusively a religious experience. People who are not religious and who don't believe in a god -- yes, even atheists! -- can and have experienced this altered state of consciousness or awareness. Studies have shown that Christians who experience this altered state for the first time immediately will say, "Jesus Christ spoke to me" or "I felt the presence of Jesus Christ." But a Muslim will say, "Allah spoke to me." Likewise for someone who believes in past lives: "I have lived a past life." So it is not necessarily evidence for the truth of any particular belief, and people ascribe meaning to it based on their cultural context and prior belief system.
There have been many, many studies of this phenomenon, and if I can find some references online, I'll post them later. |
Please do. This "altered state" I've never experienced, and won't do drugs to get there. But is it really an extention of awareness, or just a mind alteration? The human brain is a very complex thing, and does odd things under extreme stress. Astoral Projection probably comes under this catagory, but has yet to prove itself real.
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05/21/2007 03:27:51 PM · #165 |
The surgery patient was successfully rescussitated from a cardiac arrest on the operating table. Afterwards, his physician asked him if he remembered anything about the experience.
"Well, I saw a face backed by a blinding white light."
The young doctor, eager to learn more about what lay beyond physical death, asked "Did you recognize the face?"
"Sure doc," replied the patient, "it was you." |
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05/21/2007 06:55:08 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by Zeuss:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
The point is that this is not exclusively a religious experience. People who are not religious and who don't believe in a god -- yes, even atheists! -- can and have experienced this altered state of consciousness or awareness. Studies have shown that Christians who experience this altered state for the first time immediately will say, "Jesus Christ spoke to me" or "I felt the presence of Jesus Christ." But a Muslim will say, "Allah spoke to me." Likewise for someone who believes in past lives: "I have lived a past life." So it is not necessarily evidence for the truth of any particular belief, and people ascribe meaning to it based on their cultural context and prior belief system.
There have been many, many studies of this phenomenon, and if I can find some references online, I'll post them later. |
Please do. This "altered state" I've never experienced, and won't do drugs to get there. But is it really an extention of awareness, or just a mind alteration? The human brain is a very complex thing, and does odd things under extreme stress. Astoral Projection probably comes under this catagory, but has yet to prove itself real. |
It may be interesting to note that your sense of place (within your body) is effected by part of your brain: neutralise it, and you may have the sense of floating on the ceiling, seeing all around you, or floating in the stars. Being able to assimilate multiple sources of information from a single POV is a sensory capability, not to be confused with something more mystical.
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05/22/2007 03:35:00 PM · #167 |
I love Joss Whedon. And I love his most recognizable fictional character, Buffy. I'll dispense with those unseemly facts before quoting a recent online post of his regarding the murder of Dua Khalil, staged snuff films as entertainment, and misogyny in general. He has an interesting perspective on the culpability of religion in this regard:
"Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, 'If all we do is hunt and gather, let's make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let's make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.' It's a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it's entirely true. How else to explain the fact that cultures who would die to eradicate each other have always agreed on one issue? That every popular religion puts restrictions on women's behavior that are practically untenable? That the act of being a free, attractive, self-assertive woman is punishable by torture and death? In the case of this upcoming torture-porn, fictional. In the case of Dua Khalil, mundanely, unthinkably real. And both available for your viewing pleasure."
Read the entire post.
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05/22/2007 03:47:29 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I love Joss Whedon. |
Louis, I knew I loved you for a reason other than your photography. :-) |
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05/22/2007 04:14:38 PM · #169 |
...and yet this too was attributed to religion. How disgusting! All I could do was sit at my desk and fight an urge to throw up, while thinking of my own daughters at home.
Just this morning I had a conversation with a new co-worker, where we discussed the major religious beliefs of the area we live (Southeastern TN). His views were refreshingly accepting of others, and was NOT expected in this region of the bible belt. I walked away having enjoyed our talks of all people caring for and helping others, be they of different race, religion, sexual preference, nationality, etc.
Then Louis posts this atrocity for all to read*... Such a disgusting waste of human life, and for what??? I can't help but think that even if I brought this up to the members of the church where Glenda & I married nearly 18 years ago, people would STILL manage to turn the discussion to issues of interfaith / inter-racial marriages being some sort of blasphemy. Yet neighbors and family wonder why I don't attend their church services......
(* Louis, I honestly appreciate your having posted this information and, as much as it sickens me, at least you have created some awareness. Thank you.)
Message edited by author 2007-05-22 16:16:38. |
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05/22/2007 06:17:48 PM · #170 |
| The LDS Church has probably censored this forum for you, huh, rjkstesch? If they've taught that Joseph Smith Jr was not a liar, they've lied to you. If they've taught that it's wrong to be a white supremist, they're hiding they're roots from you. If they tell you that women are equal to men, again, they're not being honest with you. In the USA, you can question them. Publically. Honestly. Freely. You can come to your own unadulterated conclusion. And it doesn't mean there's no god. Make your own conclusion. |
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05/22/2007 06:54:06 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by Zeuss:
The LDS Church has probably censored this forum for you, huh, rjkstesch? If they've taught that Joseph Smith Jr was not a liar, they've lied to you. If they've taught that it's wrong to be a white supremist, they're hiding they're roots from you. If they tell you that women are equal to men, again, they're not being honest with you. In the USA, you can question them. Publically. Honestly. Freely. You can come to your own unadulterated conclusion. And it doesn't mean there's no god. Make your own conclusion. |
Carl, Carl, Carl.... The LDS Church hasn't censored any forums from me - as you are probably well aware. I'm enjoying reading the many various opinion, and creating a furor of my own, occasionally. ;-) I am aware of my roots - and my branches, which includes my beautiful bi-racial granddaughters. As a woman, I am different from men, but no less powerful. I often feel sympathy for those many areas that men have not developed. I have great opportunities in my life and count my blessings daily. I can question authority. I have that freedom. I can also choose to accept the experiences of my heart and live with a joy and happiness that many never reach. I have made my own conclusion.
My choices will be different from yours. I will respect your intellect, inquiring mind, and passion for what you believe. I will also sorrow for you a bit, for you will not feel the joy I walk with. But, I will not call you names, nor ridicule you. |
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05/22/2007 08:27:45 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
Originally posted by Zeuss:
The LDS Church has probably censored this forum for you, huh, rjkstesch? If they've taught that Joseph Smith Jr was not a liar, they've lied to you. If they've taught that it's wrong to be a white supremist, they're hiding they're roots from you. If they tell you that women are equal to men, again, they're not being honest with you. In the USA, you can question them. Publically. Honestly. Freely. You can come to your own unadulterated conclusion. And it doesn't mean there's no god. Make your own conclusion. |
Carl, Carl, Carl.... The LDS Church hasn't censored any forums from me - as you are probably well aware. I'm enjoying reading the many various opinion, and creating a furor of my own, occasionally. ;-) I am aware of my roots - and my branches, which includes my beautiful bi-racial granddaughters. As a woman, I am different from men, but no less powerful. I often feel sympathy for those many areas that men have not developed. I have great opportunities in my life and count my blessings daily. I can question authority. I have that freedom. I can also choose to accept the experiences of my heart and live with a joy and happiness that many never reach. I have made my own conclusion.
My choices will be different from yours. I will respect your intellect, inquiring mind, and passion for what you believe. I will also sorrow for you a bit, for you will not feel the joy I walk with. But, I will not call you names, nor ridicule you. |
Cool. But I'm curious. I've proven Joseph Smith Jr to be a liar and fraud. I've proven the LDS Church to be white supremist. Why do you defend them and stick with it?
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05/22/2007 09:04:56 PM · #173 |
Down boy, DOWN! LOL (sorry - couldn't resist)
Carl, may I respectfully point out that, even if Rebecca WERE to reconsider a lifetime of beliefs, I doubt she would do it instantly just because you typed a few words on an internet forum.
There - I've done my good deed for the day. ;) |
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05/22/2007 10:03:38 PM · #174 |
Carl,
What you have proven is that you can share one side and take on a subject. By your say so, I'm to believe that Joseph Smith Sr and Jr were running a scam before Jr was 14? Possible, but highly unlikely for a farm boy with little formal education. You say that quotes in two different places quoting the same person (Christ) are very similar. Imagine that! Christ would say much the same thing to two groups of people. I'm impressed that a young man with so little education could plagerize a book that scholars still disagree about. It's remarkable that a young man could "write" a book that spans over a thousand years, includes hundreds of unique given names and places, and keeps them all straight, all with under 8 years of education. It's remarkable that this young man could "write" in multiple styles with unique vocabulary every time he indicated it was a different author. It's remarkable that Joseph "wrote" of inventions and culture that have been supported by science only years after he "wrote" about them. It's remarkable that this book would claim to be authored by people who came from the Holy Lands and the book would then be written in the same poetic style and format of the text written in the Holy Lands. And to think this was all done while Joseph sat across the table and dictated it, hour after hour. My word, I have a MEd and years of educational experience behind me and I could not begin to accomplish such a feat. Joseph Smith Jr. claimed to translate a book written by ancient authors through divine help. His accomplishment indicates he did so.
The Bible has a white supremist model. It is no different in indicating that one group of people would receive the gospel before another. Perhaps you wish to attack this ancient tenent, but holding the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints up as having a different history than the Bible is rather unjust, wouldn't you say?
As a school principal, I have many opportunities to look at an event and the tales people use to share what happen. (What do you mean I was talking?... He looked at me wrong, I was just defending myself when I hit him, ... I didn't try to start a fire in the restroom, It was an accident that I brought in a lighter and tested the toilet paper... etc.) I've heard some of the biggest lies you've come across, said with great sincerity, in order to get me to look upon their view with sympathy. I've also heard unlikely stories that turn out to be the truth. I use my heart and my mind, my intellect, logic and common sense, plus I use my years of knowing people. Very little gets past me.
However, the trait that helps me the most is the gift of discernment. This gift allows me to feel and understand things that are true and false and know which is which. Perhaps, you say, I'm able to sense the undercurrents and pick up on them. Whatever the cause, I'm able to sense the truth in my work and home.
Likewise, I'm able to use my head and heart to determine what doctrine to believe. But even more importantly, I have asked in prayer and faith for answers to the truthfulness of what you question. I have received answers that meet the requirements of my mind, heart and spirit. I have felt and experienced things that I can not deny. It is that spiritual knowledge that lets me be so sure of myself. A spiritual knowledge that goes far beyond the conscienceness that was described earlier. And, as I said before, it is not something I can lay out before you to understand. If it is something you'd really like to know about, PM me. My sacred feelings won't be posted beyond what I've described today.
I hope that I satisfied a bit of your curiosity today, Carl.
Rossbilly - You have done your good deed. '-) |
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05/22/2007 10:49:55 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
Carl,
What you have proven is that you can share one side and take on a subject. By your say so, I'm to believe that Joseph Smith Sr and Jr were running a scam before Jr was 14? Possible, but highly unlikely for a farm boy with little formal education. |
Interesting. I never mentioned his age. He also ran an illegal bank with boxes of bricks made to look like boxes of coins. He was tarred and feathered by the people of his town. He destroyed a printing press that wrote anti-mormon literature, that cost him jail time, at least until the townspeople lynched him.
You trust this guy Smith, but if Jesus did these things, would you trust him?
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
You say that quotes in two different places quoting the same person (Christ) are very similar. Imagine that! Christ would say much the same thing to two groups of people. |
Now don't twist it. You gotta play fair. Jesus can't paraphrase someone else's speach before it's been said.
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
I'm impressed that a young man with so little education could plagerize a book that scholars still disagree about. It's remarkable that a young man could "write" a book that spans over a thousand years, includes hundreds of unique given names and places, and keeps them all straight, all with under 8 years of education. It's remarkable that this young man could "write" in multiple styles with unique vocabulary every time he indicated it was a different author.
It's remarkable that Joseph "wrote" of inventions and culture that have been supported by science only years after he "wrote" about them. |
Wait one minute! I'm at work now, so I don't have my collected sources available, but I will later. Joseph Smith, Jr. wrote about things in America that didn't exist, including elephante, and glass before it was invented. Archeology proves it false. He also wrote that the American Indian's heritage wasn't what DNA shows it to be, descendents of the Mongols. What are your sources?
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
It's remarkable that this book would claim to be authored by people who came from the Holy Lands and the book would then be written in the same poetic style and format of the text written in the Holy Lands. And to think this was all done while Joseph sat across the table and dictated it, hour after hour. |
I read he "translated the plates" with use of some magic specticles from behind a curtain to an uncle or some other relative. He claimed these plates to be written in "reformed Egyptian", a language never found to ever have existed. Another J.S. Jr lie.
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
My word, I have a MEd and years of educational experience behind me and I could not begin to accomplish such a feat. Joseph Smith Jr. claimed to translate a book written by ancient authors through divine help. His accomplishment indicates he did so. |
You have an education and you still believe this pack of lies?
In one hand you went to school and gained a useful and real education. In the other hand, you're gullable and bought into the lies of a fraud who learned how to fool the people AND keep the government from touching him.
It's like one evens out the other.
I'll have more later, my break is over, and I work a morning shift tomorrow. :)
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
The Bible has a white supremist model. It is no different in indicating that one group of people would receive the gospel before another. Perhaps you wish to attack this ancient tenent, but holding the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints up as having a different history than the Bible is rather unjust, wouldn't you say?
As a school principal, I have many opportunities to look at an event and the tales people use to share what happen. (What do you mean I was talking?... He looked at me wrong, I was just defending myself when I hit him, ... I didn't try to start a fire in the restroom, It was an accident that I brought in a lighter and tested the toilet paper... etc.) I've heard some of the biggest lies you've come across, said with great sincerity, in order to get me to look upon their view with sympathy. I've also heard unlikely stories that turn out to be the truth. I use my heart and my mind, my intellect, logic and common sense, plus I use my years of knowing people. Very little gets past me.
However, the trait that helps me the most is the gift of discernment. This gift allows me to feel and understand things that are true and false and know which is which. Perhaps, you say, I'm able to sense the undercurrents and pick up on them. Whatever the cause, I'm able to sense the truth in my work and home.
Likewise, I'm able to use my head and heart to determine what doctrine to believe. But even more importantly, I have asked in prayer and faith for answers to the truthfulness of what you question. I have received answers that meet the requirements of my mind, heart and spirit. I have felt and experienced things that I can not deny. It is that spiritual knowledge that lets me be so sure of myself. A spiritual knowledge that goes far beyond the conscienceness that was described earlier. And, as I said before, it is not something I can lay out before you to understand. If it is something you'd really like to know about, PM me. My sacred feelings won't be posted beyond what I've described today.
I hope that I satisfied a bit of your curiosity today, Carl.
Rossbilly - You have done your good deed. '-) |
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