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05/21/2007 01:55:57 PM · #51 |
Interesting stats for myself:
Average vote cast: 6.9238
Average vote received: 5.0017
Looking back on some of the voting I have done - and I don't vote in challenges I have entered - I very rarely score low as there is almost always merit in a photo.
This is kind of interesting - nice thought,  sheryll
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05/21/2007 02:08:57 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by HighNooner:
Sheryll
Tell us; what do you think the numbers are saying?? |
Don't really know in all honesty and I don't know what it says to answer your opening post in this thread...
Originally posted by HighNooner:
All the positive and admiring comments I am getting on my âvanishing point IIâ submission are coming from well-established and ribbon winning voters, while all the disagreeing ones are from what I call "developing" photographers.
I was sure I put forth a good entry; controversial, but good. Now, I am sure it will not win, with already 150 voters and an average of 5.6 â¦. But who cares, real photographers really take the time to look and pass proper scores on good work; and to me, that is what counts. |
Because your comment had to do with comments more than scores I don't know. I think you really got to some people with your italics around developing as if it were some horible thing. Even the top winning photographers on this site will most likely tell you they too are developing which is why they are here.
I get from what you said originally that you think your entry is good work and deserves a good score. But you think the "established" photogs are the ones giving you the better score, however in the statistics I provided earlier, the "established" photogs gave out lower scores than they received - 7 out of 8 who got top 3 in the last challenges had an average votes given that was lower than the average votes received.
Then on the other end 6 out of 6 "developing" photographers cast a higher average score than their average score received. (I didn't count those who haven't cast any votes at all).
This would seem to be exact opposite of your concerns.
edit for grammer.
Message edited by author 2007-05-21 14:13:10. |
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05/21/2007 02:19:53 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
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I think many of us need to look at scores received versus scores given. If you are honest with yourself and not self centered the scores should be very close. |
I don't believe this. Why should the score I get for my own image have anything whatsoever to do with the score that I give someone else's image? In that regard I support 'high level' photographers that give lower scores than they get. That makes sense.
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
Someone who gives more than than receive in voting is I believe something we should all work towards if we want to improve ourselves. Someone who takes a much higher score than they are willing to give is in a elite class that probably be in the prize winning sites or in galeries not wasting time here at DPC. |
Even though I agree with the final outcome voting wise, I respectfully completely disagree with this idea. I feel it is not right to match the scores that I give with those that I get. That is what we have right now and I already know I disagree with that. :)
Right now DPC scores given are low by almost any standard of comparison you could possibly conceive of to apply to them. We vote low because we get low. In a nutshell, that is my theory. My bottom line is that I wish we would stop doing that. :)
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05/21/2007 02:25:57 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Your thinking is similar to a lot of other folks at DPC. I believe it is erroneous and one contributing factor as to why DPC average scores given are so low. You think 'high ranking' photographers give high scores because they can 'afford to'. I believe that 'high ranking' photographers better recognized 'good' photography than the rest of us and that is why a disproportionate number of them vote higher. Perhaps we all could learn something from that. |
stdavidson, I hear you. I don't believe "they can afford to" is the only reason, or even the primary reason, that high ranking photographers often give high scores.
And hey, for the record, when you quoted me, you cut out the part about examining my own conscience. :-)
This conversation has helped me in one regard: a new personal goal is to make sure that at the end of this voting period, my average vote given hasn't dropped. |
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05/21/2007 02:51:50 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by citymars:
stdavidson, I hear you. I don't believe "they can afford to" is the only reason, or even the primary reason, that high ranking photographers often give high scores.
And hey, for the record, when you quoted me, you cut out the part about examining my own conscience. :-)
This conversation has helped me in one regard: a new personal goal is to make sure that at the end of this voting period, my average vote given hasn't dropped. |
My appologies to you about what I edited. I was just trying to address the statement, not the person.
What I think important isn't that we vote higher or lower than we already do... what is important is that we vote within our own belief systems regardless what MY opinion might be. I don't think we do that at DPC. My belief is based on world wide k-12 grading standards that I am very familiar with and am pretty sure is a commonality shared by most DPC voters. By that standard DPCers vote low.
I could be wrong about all that, of course. I've been told as much. LOL!!!
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05/21/2007 03:01:34 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Right now DPC scores given are low by almost any standard of comparison you could possibly conceive of to apply to them. We vote low because we get low. In a nutshell, that is my theory. My bottom line is that I wish we would stop doing that. :) |
That is exactly what I was saying, most but not all people here at DPC vote based on what they get. What is happening now is everyone is getting low votes and therefore are giving low votes. It's kinda like bad news on TV, the more we hear, the worse the news sounds and we forget there are probably more good things happening in the world that we never hear about.
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Maybe we need a "happy Day "challenge for a couple weeks. Every challenge for a couple weeks that would be hard to portray anything but good, happy emotions. Ok, now I know I've pissed some of the half empty glasses off ... yup you know who you are ;) |
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05/21/2007 03:09:50 PM · #57 |
 think happy thoughts. |
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05/21/2007 03:26:33 PM · #58 |
As a "developing" photographer (First submission is to the current saturation challenge), I have a thought on this.
I've been looking closely at DPC for a long time. Well over a year. Studying the entries, reading the forums, getting the feel for the site/community in general. I expected my first few entries to be 5ish, and thats what my first is turning out to be.
For judging, I judge based on the feel of the photo. I have a great grasp of the technical side of things, what to look for in a good photo, what to look for in a bad photo. I understand most of the core technical aspects of all of this.
Do I vote the technically challenging photos better or worse than the more artsy or emotional ones? Yes and no, it depends on the challenge. Some challenges are better suited to the technically perfect photos, some aren't. Personally, for all but a few challenges, I don't like seeing an elaborately setup studio shot. I understand the work that goes into them, but my philosophy on photography, is that it's a way to capture real life...so huge setup shots don't appeal to me.
At the same time, some things (technically) have to be good to make the shot rank high by my standards.
Most of the shots I have taken (no submitted, just taken in general), I'm disappointed in, because I have a hard time meeting my own standards. I don't have that "photographic eye" that the better photographers seem to have. I'm not a very "creative" person, I'm a developer...my brain functions entirely on logic. I would probably rate my photos anywhere from 3.5-5 ... but that has no bearing on how I rate someone else's.
In the end, how people rate is just how they rate. The whole idea behind the setup of the site is to allow people to give their opinion of your work, an the form of a vote. Everyone's vote will be different. It will be based on different things. Like all opinions, they can be swayed by the mood of the person at the time, previous experience of the person, the person's feelings toward your subject matter ...
To change the way people vote on submissions would be changing basic human psychology.
But what do I know... I'm just a "developing" photographer. :) |
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05/21/2007 03:58:41 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by roosterjm2k2:
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In the end, how people rate is just how they rate. The whole idea behind the setup of the site is to allow people to give their opinion of your work, an the form of a vote. Everyone's vote will be different. It will be based on different things. Like all opinions, they can be swayed by the mood of the person at the time, previous experience of the person, the person's feelings toward your subject matter ... |
Opinion:
This viewpoint is right. What isn't is that voters don't even vote according to the standards they grew up with, pretty much regardless of their home culture or country of origin. DPC's voting standard is a hybrid voters have adopted from other DPC voters.
That would not be a bad thing if everyone fundamentally internalized it. I do not believe we do, particularly related to our own images. Until most DPCers overcome that and vote numerically according to our own personal experience then we will continue to find disillusionment in the numerical scores we receive from others who also vote the same as we do now.
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05/21/2007 07:16:27 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Whenever I see stated, as I have by you and several others in this discussion, that the professionals don't really care about technical quality or proper photographic technique, then I'm disappointed. You are telling inexperienced photographers that rules and quality don't matter so they don't think it matters either. I believe that message is incorrect.
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I'm not sure I said that they don't care about good technique they just don't get fixed on it like many/most here at DPC. Impact is what they are looking for. I'm not preaching bad technique just a call to look beyond.
I seem to find that most of what makes the front page here on DPC is ultimately forgettable photogrqaphy that is technically perfect when some of the better images that may even last beyond the life of the site fall back...enough to make me wonder sometimes. Just my opinion but I rarely connect with images on the front page and I don't expect most people here to be in sync with me there. If I stand alone in that...it's ok with me.
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I feel the same way.
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05/22/2007 10:03:34 AM · #61 |
Thats pretty much how I look at it too.
If you're just looking for technical/setup/execution and not content, then you are missing the proverbial forest for the trees. |
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05/22/2007 11:50:39 AM · #62 |
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Message edited by author 2007-05-22 17:05:42. |
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05/22/2007 11:56:40 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Could there be a special forum where all's fair game BUT civil? |
Are you kidding? That's really asking a lot. You know how things go around here.
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05/22/2007 12:05:36 PM · #64 |
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Message edited by author 2007-05-22 17:04:46. |
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05/22/2007 12:14:14 PM · #65 |
OK, let's say there was a forum for debate as you state. It would probably need to be well-moderated.
Those that prove or have proven inability to remain civil would likely need to be excluded. The majority of people at DPC can have civil debates, but there are those that will turn everything into a personal attack.
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05/22/2007 12:14:42 PM · #66 |
I agree that many people must vote on how they get voted on. I catch myself being much more strict when voting for challenges I submitted (which makes the idea of not voting in my own competitions a valid option).
I took this photo for my first challenge
I ended up second last, barely beating a MOTORCYCLE in a BICYCLE challenge.
Aside from many OOF comments, many commenters liked it. I like it, and have it framed in my office. My point is that 'trendy' photos will win. This having no effect on quality. In music Britney Spears, Hanson, and Aguilera are/were trendy, but so were Bjork, the Rolling Stones, and Bach.
And a note to the person who started the thread..the average score you give is 3.4 |
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05/22/2007 12:25:23 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Could there be a special forum where all's fair game BUT civil?
For example, I think this image should have won The CD Challenge, with no disrespect to the winners, which I thought were all very clever entries. BUT...(add opinion here) Now, where can I safely discuss this with no perceived ill will towards the winners? Where can I have a healthy, honest discussion? Nowhere...unless I want to be accused of being sour grapes. |
As a suggestion, you might get a more constructive and civil discussions if you made the two following small changes:
Instead of phrasing it as "I think this image should have won ..." you might try something less combative or confrontational such as "I seemed to like this image a lot more than the pool of DPC voters ..."
You then need to follow that up with "... because ..." and list some reasons -- the vast majority of "I think this photo was under-rated" postings I've seen don't really explain the reasoning behind the opinion. For (a good) example, this comment on my album entry let me know not only what the commenter felt but why:
Originally posted by admart01:
You've pulled all the elements I think should be there - strong photograph that I could see on an album, text compliments the shot, album title + band name, DPL acronym makes fairly good sense as a 3-word band, roughly square, layout is creative/clever... |
Message edited by author 2007-05-22 12:26:28. |
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05/22/2007 01:03:25 PM · #68 |
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Message edited by author 2007-05-22 17:04:23. |
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05/22/2007 01:13:24 PM · #69 |
Great discussion here. Here's a thought on "how people vote":
Everyone has their own standard and way of voting a particular image but there's another parameter wrapped into the given/received scores discussion and that is:
How many votes a voter casts in each challenge.
Maybe this parameter is washed out by the amount of voters voting. The more people voting, the less this matters.
What I mean is, when I vote in a challenge I hardly ever can vote on all images so I vote on the ones that grab or strike me. I'll click on the thumbnail and vote on the ones that look interesting or odd or colorful or moody, or whatever. In this manner, I'm already selecting something I might rate as a high vote. You can see how only using this method may lead to a higher given average compared to others who vote on every image. Others may have a different voting system where they vote on 20% of the images randomly. Still others may vote on images they might feel DMNC for whatever reason.
Summary: there's more to your given average than just how "generous" you are since everyone uses a different voting process. |
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05/22/2007 01:22:45 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
As a suggestion, you might get a more constructive and civil discussions if you made the two following small changes:
Instead of phrasing it as "I think this image should have won ..." you might try something less combative or confrontational such as "I seemed to like this image a lot more than the pool of DPC voters ..." |
You're probably right. Point well taken. I didn't think it was too combative, as I did tip my hat somewhat, to the winners right after. |
I think that's what's called a backhanded compliment ... if you parse it carefully, what it "really" says is "While I don't [want you to think I] mean any disrespect to the winners, here goes ... these other pictures were better."
If you want to compare your preferred images to the winners, why not do that: compare them; say why you think one is a "better" interpretation/execution of the challenge than the other.
I see a lot of opinion around here, but a lot less critical analysis to back it up. |
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05/22/2007 01:47:02 PM · #71 |
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Message edited by author 2007-05-22 17:04:04. |
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05/22/2007 01:58:25 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by HighNooner:
All the positive and admiring comments I am getting on my âvanishing point IIâ submission are coming from well-established and ribbon winning voters, while all the disagreeing ones are from what I call "developing" photographers.
I was sure I put forth a good entry; controversial, but good. Now, I am sure it will not win, with already 150 voters and an average of 5.6 â¦. But who cares, real photographers really take the time to look and pass proper scores on good work; and to me, that is what counts. |
Given my current entry and score, I have no doubt I fall under the "developing" photographer category...::takes moment to snack on cheesewiz::
Although I always appreciate a generous comment from a ribbon winner, truly, I appreciate EVERYONE (photographer or viewer) who takes time out of their busy day to let me know their thoughts. THANK YOU!
::Wanders off to vote on and COMMENT in the Vanishing challenge:: |
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05/22/2007 02:13:39 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I realize now that the biggest issue is the pace of the back and forth debate/discussion and the way things get taken, too literally sometimes.... Very hard to communicate effectively, for me at least. |
For many/most people -- just remember to keep trying.
You might try composing/editing in a separate text file -- tweak it there where there's no tempting "Post" button to hit prematurely. When you are sure that what you've written is what you want to say you can copy/paste it into the forum and post it. I often find that the time it takes to do this causes me to skip posting altogether. |
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05/22/2007 02:48:53 PM · #74 |
I also think it could help if, when discussing photos, you just stayed away from the concept of "winning." DPC chose the winners as a group of voters. That's it. There's no debate possible. There's no image that "should win" for any reason. It's the concept of some style or shot being inherently better, on some absolute, universal scale, that raises serious hackles. An image I'm sure would've bombed here is actually bombing on another site. On a third site, the same image has received one comment from someone who likes it so much he wrote most of his comment in all caps.
In other words, I found someone who likes it as much as I do.
Now, in contrast, you can talk about why you like some image more than another. It might be that you prefer another style, it might be that specific image, it might be that the subject matter resonates with you empotionally, etc.
Whatever the reason, though, there are likely to be people who agree with your opinion and people who don't. You're all "right" because you're all entitled.
So, instead of saying "This image is better than the winner, and should have scored higher," say "To me, X is more appealing than the winning image. Here's why."
That wording change accomplishes two things:
1) It makes clear that you know you're expressing YOUR opinion, not absolute truth
2) It doesn't comment on the DPC voting outcome, but instead discusses your reasoning.
Message edited by author 2007-05-22 14:49:57.
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05/22/2007 03:05:07 PM · #75 |
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Message edited by author 2007-05-22 17:03:49. |
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think happy thoughts.
