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05/20/2007 07:50:42 PM · #126 |
Muslims don't have paintings of Muhammad over their pianos?
BTW, that was a somewhat serious question. I wasn't aware that there were no accepted images of Muhammad
Message edited by author 2007-05-20 19:53:18.
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05/20/2007 07:51:34 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Zeuss:
Man made God in his own image. If you don't think so, look at the current accepted images of Jesus and Muhammod. |
There are no "currently accepted" images of Muhammed -- that's what the Danish cartoon controversy was all about. |
My point being, Muhammod is Middle Eastern while Jesus (today) looks more European than ever. Yeah, the Muslims don't allow images of Muhammod, either. Another example of how religion is the biggest downfall society has ever seen. It holds back progress at the cost of personal freedom.
The morality question is a slap in the face to any human who can think. We atheists don't need to "learn" morality. Don't hurt anyone. That's morality in it's simplist form. Just because Christianity (in some cases) preaches good deeds doesn't mean they have a monopoly on them, so please don't tout "Christian Values" like they own them. |
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05/20/2007 08:47:08 PM · #128 |
I am simply through with the thread unless one of you can repeat the following sentence without adding your own "qualifier" after.
Religion has done good in the world.
If you cannot even admit this then I have no time or use for this discussion. If you (and I'm not just pointing at Louis) cannot admit this then your position is so absurdly indefensible that I will not waste my time.
Message edited by author 2007-05-20 20:56:55. |
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05/20/2007 08:58:01 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...Religion has done good in the world. |
and I wish I could expand that to "Religion has done good in the world." "And I could be wrong. There just might be a God." |
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05/20/2007 09:37:03 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I am simply through with the thread unless one of you can repeat the following sentence without adding your own "qualifier" after.
Religion has done good in the world.
If you cannot even admit this then I have no time or use for this discussion. If you (and I'm not just pointing at Louis) cannot admit this then your position is so absurdly indefensible that I will not waste my time. |
I don't see or condone ANY good that can come about through lies. And people bring up their children to believe those lies like they're real. To quote the FFRF, who compiled it very well:
The biblical god is a macho male warrior. Though he said “Thou shalt not kill”, he ordered death for all opposition (Exodus 32:27), wholesale drowning and mass exterminations; punished offspring to the fourth generation (Exodus 20:5); ordered babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16); demanded animal and human blood to appease his angry vanity; is partial to one race of people; judged women inferior to men; is a sadist who created hell to torture unbelievers; created evil (Isaiah 45:7); discriminated against the handicapped (Leviticus 21:16-23); ordered virgins to be kept as spoils of war (Numbers 31:15-18, Deuteronomy 21:11-14); threatened to curse people by spreading dung on their faces (Malachi 2:3); sent bears to devour forty-two children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ezekeil 5:10). Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?
I'm sorry, I find no good in teaching anyone to believe this is real, or that any good can come of it.
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05/20/2007 10:41:29 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I am simply through with the thread unless one of you can repeat the following sentence without adding your own "qualifier" after.
Religion has done good in the world.
If you cannot even admit this then I have no time or use for this discussion. If you (and I'm not just pointing at Louis) cannot admit this then your position is so absurdly indefensible that I will not waste my time. |
If you can accept that good can be done in the world without religion ... |
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05/20/2007 11:28:39 PM · #132 |
doubledy-doo
Message edited by author 2007-05-20 23:32:40. |
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05/20/2007 11:21:43 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I am simply through with the thread unless one of you can repeat the following sentence without adding your own "qualifier" after.
Religion has done good in the world.
If you cannot even admit this then I have no time or use for this discussion. If you (and I'm not just pointing at Louis) cannot admit this then your position is so absurdly indefensible that I will not waste my time. |
I guess we'll see ya then. Because you've apparently taken your ball and gone home like so many before you, because like so many others you simply cannot abide a contrary view and brook no dissent when it comes to religion, you won't get to read the answer I suppose, which is just as well. It's best answered by Christopher Hitchens from the first chapter of his recent book:
"Religion spoke its last intelligible or noble or inspiring words a long time ago: either that or it mutated into an admirable but nebulous humanism, as did, say, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a brave Lutheran pastor hanged by the Nazis for his refusal to collude with them. We shall have no more prophets or sages from the ancient quarter, which is why devotions of today are only the echoing repetitions of yesterday, sometimes ratcheted up to screaming point so as to ward off the terrible emptiness."
No good comes from religion, only divisiveness, bullying, arrogance, bluster, and violence. These good deeds you imagine originating from religion do not. They originate from human beings.
Message edited by author 2007-05-20 23:33:13. |
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05/20/2007 11:42:26 PM · #134 |
Paul, I 100% accept that. I am a scientist after all. Now can you accept some good in religion?
Louis. That's wild. I just used a Bonnhoeffer quote in the Bible Study I led today. "Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves ..the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance ..grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. ..Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life." If that's nebulous humanism. I'm all for it!!!
I can abide an argument weighing the good and bad of religion. I can abide all sorts of arguments about God and his existence. I simply cannot abide someone who cannot see one iota of good in religion. I think that type of atheist is the intellectual equivalent of an ostrich with his head in the sand. (Guess that's what I'm calling Zeusman there, and that's what I'm calling you.)
Message edited by author 2007-05-20 23:43:43. |
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05/20/2007 11:54:54 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by Louis:
No good comes from religion, only divisiveness, bullying, arrogance, bluster, and violence. These good deeds you imagine originating from religion do not. They originate from human beings. |
Well put, Louis.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg - Nobel Laureate
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05/20/2007 11:56:25 PM · #136 |
| That sand tickling in those ears yet Carl? |
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05/20/2007 11:57:33 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Paul, I 100% accept that. I am a scientist after all. Now can you accept some good in religion?
Louis. That's wild. I just used a Bonnhoeffer quote in the Bible Study I led today. "Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves ..the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance ..grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. ..Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life." If that's nebulous humanism. I'm all for it!!
I can abide an argument weighing the good and bad of religion. I can abide all sorts of arguments about God and his existence. I simply cannot abide someone who cannot see one iota of good in religion. I think that type of atheist is the intellectual equivalent of an ostrich with his head in the sand. (Guess that's what I'm calling Zeusman there, and that's what I'm calling you.) |
Your Bonnhoeffer quote excellently illustrates the nonsensical demands of religion, seeing only emptiness and "cheapness" in even good deeds done without the assent of the church. A nice illustration of how religion offers nothing but inane demands that cheapen lives, cheapen good deeds, and is blind to human goodness unless it imagines it to emanate from itself. And you have also misinterpreted the Hitchens quote nicely, imagining that your quoted selection, having everything to do with the narrow Christian outlook on the world, was what he meant by "humanism", when of course it was the last humanist act of his life that was being outlined.
Rather, you are the ostrich, interestingly. |
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05/21/2007 12:03:48 AM · #138 |
| Hey, but I got a shot at being president... ;) |
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05/21/2007 12:19:04 AM · #139 |
Token pagan here...
I think that certainly that there is good that is done in the world by religion of ALL paths.
I do think that though fundamentalism IN ANY RELIGION including Islam AND Christianity and English football for that matter does far more drastic harm to society as a whole than just about any other single force ...
I believe that anyone that dismisses the works and deeds of another simply because they don’t profess belief in the same hardcore dogmata as they do is a lost sprit.
You would think that the war of the human tribes would be over by now
(Christianity v. Islam, Christianity v. atheist, Islam v. Jew, Arsnel v. Celsea, Cowboys v. NFC East)
I throw in the sports analogies for a reason... Stand back and think about it
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05/21/2007 12:21:38 AM · #140 |
| DrAchoo, what's your opinion of Islam? Or Voodoo? |
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05/21/2007 12:27:06 AM · #141 |
Originally posted by Zeuss:
DrAchoo, what's your opinion of Islam? Or Voodoo? |
Wow thats a pair
oooo oooo how about this what is your opinion of child molesters and Gansta rap
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05/21/2007 12:31:38 AM · #142 |
Originally posted by nomad469:
I throw in the sports analogies for a reason... Stand back and think about it |
It's a good analogy. Religion has been the source of war for centuries. It's done much more harm than good.
Christianity, for example, entices you in with all of it's virtues, but then threatens you with hellfire of you choose against it. And it puts YOUR head in the sand by calling dissenters blasphemers and sentencing them to death! You don't have a choice, but to be one of them! Unless you're in the USA. Years ago, I'd be put to death for my comments against religion, but the fact is, I embrace logic and reason. A religionist isn't allowed to do this. So who'd head is really in the sand, Doc?
I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.
- Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936
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05/21/2007 12:40:52 AM · #143 |
Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.
- Martin Luther
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05/21/2007 12:43:33 AM · #144 |
Originally posted by Zeuss:
Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.
- Martin Luther |
I forgot about that quote... thats a good un
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05/21/2007 12:45:58 AM · #145 |
If you choose to be manipulated:
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger (circa 4 B.C.E - 65 C.E)
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05/21/2007 12:46:34 AM · #146 |
"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
- Pope Leo X
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05/21/2007 12:47:31 AM · #147 |
Originally posted by Zeuss:
DrAchoo, what's your opinion of Islam? Or Voodoo? |
Gotta go with Islam. I don't look good in dreads. |
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05/21/2007 12:52:26 AM · #148 |
Quran:
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes
them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not
guide the unjust people. |
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05/21/2007 12:54:46 AM · #149 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Zeuss:
DrAchoo, what's your opinion of Islam? Or Voodoo? |
Gotta go with Islam. I don't look good in dreads. |
he said Voodoo not Rasta mon LOL |
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05/21/2007 12:55:00 AM · #150 |
Islam directs their followers to kill those that are not Muslim.
Quran:
[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall
make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We
will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement;
surely Allah is Mighty, Wise."
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