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05/15/2007 05:35:26 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I'm (a lot) better at titling than taking photos ... let's have the thumbs page just show a blank rectangle and the title until after you've gone and voted -- I bet that way my pictures will get a lot more hits than from my often-ugly thumbnails. |
Yours may take a backseat if Leroy starts using titles like "Sex Sex Sex" or "She's Hawt!" :P |
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05/15/2007 05:36:20 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by boomtap:
I say cherry pick. I can't see that it makes a diffrence. So what if 50 extra people don't see your image. |
50 fewer chances to make an impression or garner a useful comment? Have you ever seen a thread where someone complains that too many people have been looking at their photos? |
But wouldn't this also mean that up to 50 other images have an increased chance to make an impression or garner useful comments?
What most likely will happen if "cherry picking" is restricted is there will simply be fewer votes cast overall and therefore individual images will have less opportunity to either make an impression or garner useful comments, not to mention getting fewer votes.
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05/15/2007 05:36:29 PM · #78 |
Please explain if I am incorrect in these observations.
1) As I've stated in other forums here, below the DPC logo, it does say "a digital photography contest".
2) As far as I know the goal and requirement of any Contest Judges is to pick the Top-n number of Winners.
Winners meaning, the "Best" out of all the submissions. We have thumbnails to preview first, as do most website galleries of photographs. I have been able to pick the top 3 out of my top 15-20 picks.
This is all very typical, thumbnails and contest results.
So if you want to look good for judges make sure your photo has "Thumbnail Appeal".
I am sure in all contests/auditions some things attract attention, even from an eye-squinting thumbnail distance. We are not judging the 30 x 40 Prints in a Gallery room here. This is the Internet and a very common aspect of that medium of displaying art.
Maybe there needs to be some ways of increasing commenting on the bottom half of the photos submitted. That's a different issue. |
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05/15/2007 05:41:48 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by mk:
A few weeks ago when this same discussion came up, I took a look at about 15 recent challenges, both member and open, because I wanted to see whether or not this was actually a problem. I made a list of how many votes each image in increments of 25 got (ie. the 1st, 25th, 50th, 75th, etc.) I would assume that if cherry-picking was an issue, the images placing at the top and at the bottom would have significantly more votes than those in the middle, right? They didn't. I'm no stats master so perhaps a math wizard wants to do a more thorough examination but this doesn't strike me as much of a problem for the time-being. |
I could run a regression analysis on it, but I'm too lazy to gather the data. |
Regression won't help; vote count should not be correlated to score, so the regression would just show a circular blob. You're looking for images that get more or less votes than images that score very similarly. Look through the challenge results. You'll see images right next to each other that have vote counts that differ by 10-20 votes. In order to discover whether that has anything at all to do with cherry-picking, we'd need a way to rate the thumbnail versions. |
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05/15/2007 05:46:16 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by justamistere:
Please explain if I am incorrect in these observations.
1) As I've stated in other forums here, below the DPC logo, it does say "a digital photography contest". |
As is noted here ...
Originally posted by About DPC Page:
The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week. |
the purpose of the site (as I read it) is mutual self-education; the contest aspect is merely the methodology or format adopted to achieve that aim. Where helping someone become a better photographer conflicts with letting people choosing to vote on "prettier" (or whatever) pictures, I vote in favor of the former priority, especially in this case, where the site explicitly requests that you vote through the random queue presented to you, and since it's been demonstrated that you often can't tell a picture by its thumbnail, so cherry-picking the thumbs is not even a valid screening method. |
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05/15/2007 05:48:26 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by mk:
A few weeks ago when this same discussion came up, I took a look at about 15 recent challenges, both member and open, because I wanted to see whether or not this was actually a problem. I made a list of how many votes each image in increments of 25 got (ie. the 1st, 25th, 50th, 75th, etc.) I would assume that if cherry-picking was an issue, the images placing at the top and at the bottom would have significantly more votes than those in the middle, right? They didn't. I'm no stats master so perhaps a math wizard wants to do a more thorough examination but this doesn't strike me as much of a problem for the time-being. |
Perhaps you've hit the nail on the head with, GASP!, real evidence... albeit preliminary. Lets not solve a problem that doesn't exist.
That is not to say that "Cherry Picking" isn't used to cheat. It probably has been at some point in the past but to what extent it is a "real" problem today remains unknown. If "cherry picking" proves inconsequential then there would be no need for any changes whatsoever.
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05/15/2007 05:49:27 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
... In order to discover whether that has anything at all to do with cherry-picking, we'd need a way to rate the thumbnail versions. |
Oooh, what if, in order to jump from the thumb to the voting page, you have to enter a "pre-vote" which is locked-in but not tabulated ... it might be interesting to compare that with the final vote on the full-size image. |
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05/15/2007 05:49:36 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by mk:
A few weeks ago when this same discussion came up, I took a look at about 15 recent challenges, both member and open, because I wanted to see whether or not this was actually a problem. I made a list of how many votes each image in increments of 25 got (ie. the 1st, 25th, 50th, 75th, etc.) I would assume that if cherry-picking was an issue, the images placing at the top and at the bottom would have significantly more votes than those in the middle, right? They didn't. I'm no stats master so perhaps a math wizard wants to do a more thorough examination but this doesn't strike me as much of a problem for the time-being. |
I could run a regression analysis on it, but I'm too lazy to gather the data. |
Regression won't help; vote count should not be correlated to score, so the regression would just show a circular blob. You're looking for images that get more or less votes than images that score very similarly. Look through the challenge results. You'll see images right next to each other that have vote counts that differ by 10-20 votes. In order to discover whether that has anything at all to do with cherry-picking, we'd need a way to rate the thumbnail versions. |
That's the point - to prove zero correlation. If the theory is that prettier pictures get more votes, then regression should look like a whole lot of nothing.
But I do understand what you mean about needing a way to rate thumbs. The working assumption has to be that pretty pictures have pretty thumbs, and that percentage (not score or placement) must therefore proxy.
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05/15/2007 06:48:30 PM · #84 |
I think this is just a bad idea.
first of all, whats the big deal about cherry picking, if it really happens. 9 times out of a 10 a good image will have a good thumb and vice versa
second of all, wouldn't this just help the bad images? they wouldn't get voted low because they are just passed over.
finaly, you shouldn't value your images on what they score anyway. if you think about it, the large sum of voters are amauture photographers, some of which don't even own a camera. if it was a panal of vogue photographers I could see it...but it's not.
if it isn't broken then why fix it?\
edit for typo
Message edited by author 2007-05-15 18:51:45.
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05/15/2007 07:43:34 PM · #85 |
| Cherry picking is fine as long as you are fair about it. |
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05/15/2007 07:58:28 PM · #86 |
| Generally when I vote I pull the first image & scroll through them that way so I see the full size image. I didn't even know what "Cherry Picking" was until I read this. I don't think it is a big deal though..I would imagine like a lot of other things in life - it just works itself out. |
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05/15/2007 09:46:54 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
How does reviewing 100 out of 300 images in random order teach me more about photography than reviewing 100 images non-randomly? |
It might not teach YOU anything, but assuming you take the time to comment, then it could be argued that you might proffer some fantastic words of advise to someone who otherwise would not have had the opportunity to learn from you.
The added value of randomness would in such scenario benefit those who perhaps need it the most.
Just a thought,
Ray |
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05/15/2007 09:49:02 PM · #88 |
I vote on 100% of challenge entries since about 7 challenges ago, only failed once.
Many challengers view and don't vote. There are no grounds for any factual data. Chances are if you talk about not liking thumbnail voting is because you have thought about it yourself and said nah thats wrong. |
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05/15/2007 10:47:49 PM · #89 |
As a test, the site could assign 1/2 of the members (randomly) to only view and vote on thumbs. The other 1/2 (assigned randomly) of the members can only view and vote fill size images. Compare the results of the two.
Do a Beta. But, I'm sure thats impossible for some reason or other.
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05/15/2007 10:50:48 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by jonejess:
As a test, the site could assign 1/2 of the members (randomly) to only view and vote on thumbs. The other 1/2 (assigned randomly) of the members can only view and vote fill size images. Compare the results of the two.
Do a Beta. But, I'm sure thats impossible for some reason or other. |
I say more time voting less time complaining? |
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05/15/2007 11:16:38 PM · #91 |
| I'd like to be able to just select all the thumbnails at once and give 1's to all the entries, then go back and give out 2's and 3's to the best of the bunch without having to wait for the pesky full size images to load. |
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05/15/2007 11:37:52 PM · #92 |
Here's an evaluation from a recent challenge...
Based on this challenge with 305 submissions there is a positive correlation between the averages and the number of votes as depicted in this scatter plot:
This would confirm in this sample that higher average submission receive more votes.
However before getting too excited we should look at the degree of correlation. The value (r) is called Pearson̢۪s Correlation. A perfect positive correlation equals 1. A scatter plot of a nearly perfect correlation looks something like this
Conversely if there was no correlation r=0 it would look like this
You can see that the actual sample data is somewhere between the perfect and no-correlation extremes. The value (r2) represents the proportion of variance in the average score that can be predicted from the # of votes. The r2 value in the first chart indicates that only 24% of the variance in average score can be predicted from the # of votes. I believe the converse would indicate that 76% of the prediction of average score would be left to other factors.
Based on this it can't be denied that a correlation exists but I suspect that the amount of impact on scores is not as significant as some would fear.
By the way...
In this challenge the highest number of votes was 286 (#5 of 305), the average was 261 and the lowest was 234 (#272 of 305). A spread of 52 votes (20% of the average)
One last factor to consider. There's no way to say that this correlation is due wholly to cherry-picking thumbnails. Even when viewing a full size image taken in random order a voter can skip vote an image for many reasons. Some percentage of the lower vote totals are just be abstentions.
Please remember I don't claim to be a statistician and the conclusions I've drawn are based on a sample from only a single challenge
Message edited by author 2007-05-15 23:39:49. |
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05/15/2007 11:44:20 PM · #93 |
The difference probably wouldn't be much, but I wonder if it would make a difference in the R-squared if you used percentile instead of score. The problem with using score is that the range varies too much. We have challenges that are won by 6.4s at the 100th percentile which in other challenges would be, say, the 72nd percentile. So I would do a regression analysis using five independent variables - score, placement, percentile, number of views during voting, and number of comments made during voting - and see what a stepwise regression would do with it.
Message edited by author 2007-05-15 23:45:41.
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05/15/2007 11:47:01 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
...Maybe we can make it so that flagged images will be hidden by the nude filter once they've had a comment entered, not just once they've had a vote cast or the challenge is over. That way you could hide the nudes from home first, before voting from work. |
I've actually wondered why they aren't hidden even in voting. It can cause a bit of a problem at work and even at home there are some instances where you may not want certain images to come up...maybe a kid is enjoying your computer time with you or your mom likes to go through the images...I know there are a few here that do that.
I think the only way to really stop said "cherry picking" and also help raise the number of votes recieved would be to make every image automatically start out with a 10. It doesn't get any votes then it stays at a perfect 10. Think about it, you want to make sure the right image wins so you are gonna go make more effort to get all them 10's knocked down to where they belong...just kidding of course.
I really don't believe cherry picking has an effect on scores and while I try to give every image a look, I also have been guilty of doing it. I'm pretty sure everyone does it, either by picking through the thumbnails or just hitting the next image button and not voting. |
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05/15/2007 11:47:05 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by justamistere:
Please explain if I am incorrect in these observations.
1) As I've stated in other forums here, below the DPC logo, it does say "a digital photography contest". |
As is noted here ...
Originally posted by About DPC Page:
The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week. |
the purpose of the site (as I read it) is mutual self-education; the contest aspect is merely the methodology or format adopted to achieve that aim. Where helping someone become a better photographer conflicts with letting people choosing to vote on "prettier" (or whatever) pictures, I vote in favor of the former priority, especially in this case, where the site explicitly requests that you vote through the random queue presented to you, and since it's been demonstrated that you often can't tell a picture by its thumbnail, so cherry-picking the thumbs is not even a valid screening method. |
Here's an idea...take out voting altogether and make it just comments. That way we could truly use the site for it's purpose and we stop having all these debates because someone is disgruntled over where they placed. |
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05/16/2007 12:17:38 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Quit the bitching and whining about voting. I haven't felt like voting for a couple of weeks now because of all the bullshit. It's getting less and less fun here. |
The thread was very well titled. You can simply ignore these threads then you don't appear to be a dick when you whine about their bitching. Or was that bitch about their whining......
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05/16/2007 12:20:31 AM · #97 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
There's about 10 million other things I'd rather see happen around here other than Langdon wasting his time trying to make voting more "fair'.
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Yup, you're right. I'd suspect that no one ever cheats in their voting on DPC. Attempts to detect or eliminate it are probably just a big waste of time. What the heck, it's just a jpg or png ribbon, why would anyone care?
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05/16/2007 12:24:31 AM · #98 |
Originally posted by Ben:
I think i'll just do what i want thanks. |
Your welcome.
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05/16/2007 12:24:36 AM · #99 |
| Cheaters never prosper. They just get rich. |
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05/16/2007 12:26:03 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
Not to mention the fact that "cherry picking" doesn't influence the scores at all. It just influences the order in which they're handed out.
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Please explain the last sentence.
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