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05/08/2007 10:30:01 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Surely it is not that difficult to tell the community that they shouldn't seek this type of input for images they subsequently enter in a challenge. |
Something along the line of Forum Rule #2 perhaps?
Originally posted by Forum Rules:
2. Please do not discuss specific challenge entries or outtakes until voting has ended. Doing so can affect voting and commenting, so please save these discussions for after the end of the voting period. |
Message edited by author 2007-05-08 22:31:24. |
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05/08/2007 10:35:30 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
The growing hysteria and witch hunting surrounding cheating is a blight on an otherwise great site. |
almost makes you want to go take a LONG walk in the desert ;-) |
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05/08/2007 10:37:11 PM · #103 |
Ohhh... a Where in the world is Skip? Challenge in the making there.
Message edited by author 2007-05-08 22:38:31. |
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05/08/2007 10:38:50 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Surely it is not that difficult to tell the community that they shouldn't seek this type of input for images they subsequently enter in a challenge. |
Something along the line of Forum Rule #2 perhaps?
Originally posted by Forum Rules:
2. Please do not discuss specific challenge entries or outtakes until voting has ended. Doing so can affect voting and commenting, so please save these discussions for after the end of the voting period. |
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Absolutely... simple, to the point and readily understandable.
Ray |
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05/08/2007 10:42:47 PM · #105 |
n/m
Message edited by author 2007-05-08 22:48:00. |
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05/08/2007 10:43:31 PM · #106 |
Well, contrary to some statements made here, this is a CONTEST site. Thus the name .....Challenge and the awarding of ribbons. Do you learn here? Absolutely, but that is secondary to the challenge. Apply what you learn in future challenges. You have ALWAYS been supposed to take your own damn photo and do your own damn processing and enter anonymously......up till now. SC, do your job and quit taking the liberal way out. btw: Ray, good job.
Message edited by author 2007-05-08 23:02:26.
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05/08/2007 10:45:43 PM · #107 |
I will echo a few people above by saying we have the power to control this ourselves. If you do not think such actions should occur, vote the photo down. The more exposure the shot got before the challenge, the more people vote it low. If someone posts a photo to their portfolio and 20 people view it, the score won't suffer much. If someone posts a photo in a thread and 2000 people view it, the score suffers a lot.
I faintly remember this picture in the thread but didn't see it in the FS. Had I put the two together, I would not have felt bad at all leaving a 1 with an explanation. I might even then comment that it was a great photo and what I really felt about the photo itself. |
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05/08/2007 10:51:21 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by Brad:
Ohhh... a Where in the world is Skip? Challenge in the making there. |
where? he's having way, way, way too much fun with his camera to worry about scores and such ;-) |
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05/08/2007 11:02:13 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, contrary to some statements made here, this is a CONTEST site. Thus the name .....Challenge ... |
I disagree -- the "challenge" in the name refers to meeting a specific topic assignment -- we could as well submit our photos for comment without any numerical scores or rankings, and it would still be a weekly "challenge" and a learning site.
The contest format was used as a method to entice people into participating, having fun and putting forth more effort than if it was merely like a school assignment.
The "learning" part is the reason for the site's existence -- the "contest" component is the format used to implement that activity. |
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05/08/2007 11:06:06 PM · #110 |
Well, I expected you to disagree. So, are you saying it is not a contest site?
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05/08/2007 11:11:10 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by Skip:
Originally posted by Brad:
Ohhh... a Where in the world is Skip? Challenge in the making there. |
where? he's having way, way, way too much fun with his camera to worry about scores and such ;-) |
If you do go for a LONG walk in the desert, be sure to stop by and borrow Steve's map.
On second thought, maybe a tour bus would be an option instead....
Message edited by author 2007-05-08 23:11:32. |
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05/08/2007 11:36:57 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by Brad:
Originally posted by Skip:
Originally posted by Brad:
Ohhh... a Where in the world is Skip? Challenge in the making there. |
where? he's having way, way, way too much fun with his camera to worry about scores and such ;-) |
If you do go for a LONG walk in the desert, be sure to stop by and borrow Steve's map.
On second thought, maybe a tour bus would be an option instead.... |
a tour bus would be ideal, especially if it had an IP tracking device so that we could track down and personally visit everyone needing help... |
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05/08/2007 11:40:10 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, I expected you to disagree. So, are you saying it is not a contest site? |
Not at all -- but I view the contest aspect as subordinate to the ultimate purpose of the site, which is to bring photographers together for the purpose of mutual self-education. Contests are the method used to stimulate interest and organize the exercises, but are not indispensible for achieving the ultimate goal.
Originally posted by The "About" Page:
... The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week.... |
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05/08/2007 11:40:28 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, I expected you to disagree. So, are you saying it is not a contest site? |
A contest site would offer real prizes. :-) I agree that DPC is first a learning site with challenges as the motivator.
You want real contests, go to votobooth.com :-)
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05/08/2007 11:42:56 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
You want real contests, go to votobooth.com :-) |
Votobooth sucks they owe me man...punkasses :-( |
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05/08/2007 11:44:27 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
You want real contests, go to votobooth.com :-) |
Votobooth sucks they owe me man...punkasses :-( |
Ohh smack... forget them then.
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05/14/2007 01:18:24 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I will echo a few people above by saying we have the power to control this ourselves. If you do not think such actions should occur, vote the photo down. |
Would this procedure not run afoul of the voting rules?
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The more exposure the shot got before the challenge, the more people vote it low. If someone posts a photo to their portfolio and 20 people view it, the score won't suffer much. If someone posts a photo in a thread and 2000 people view it, the score suffers a lot. |
I would absolutely love to see some empirical evidence to support this. One needs only look at some of the images that were discussed at length to see that this pronouncement does not hold true.
From my perspective, this manner of proceeding could be eradicated quite simply by stating in the rules that such activity can/will lead to a DQ.
Ray
Message edited by author 2007-05-14 13:22:47. |
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05/14/2007 01:39:06 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
From my perspective, this manner of proceeding could be eradicated quite simply by stating in the rules that such activity can/will lead to a DQ. |
But should it lead to a DQ?
Think of your "Best of Year" shot. The one you plan to post in 2008 for your best of 2007. Should you begin "holding back", RIGHT NOW, any and all of your BEST images that you take today, this week, this month, this year for fear that you might accidentally expose "the one best image" that you would like to have posted for the best of year challenge?
Or would you rather share some of your "best" images now and not wait for the end of the year? What if you haven't really decided which one(s) are your best? How will you decide what to share and what to hold back?
I think the answer to those questions are completely obvious. No, you do not hold back now because you have no idea what will ultimately be your best shot for the year. And besides, this site is about sharing and learning. Not about winning a prize.
With the answers to those questions so obvious ... it now becomes only a matter of scale.
Should you hold back any and all of your best shots today, this week, this month just because you're not sure what you'll be entering into the May Free Study?
The answer is perhaps a bit grayer. But certainly not black and white.
I think that, the shorter the time frame, the more black and white the situation becomes. But even on a single week challenge, I still wouldn't DQ someone just because they got excited and shared it on Monday then on Sunday decided at the last minute to submit it to a challenge.
The voters can judge their own reactions to the image. Do they appreciate not having seen it before? Does it bother them that they saw it in advance. Every voter should vote how they feel and when they do that the system will police itself *without* having to have yet another rule.
If there were "real prizes" to be won, then maybe the rules would need to be stricter. But these are virtual ribbons, of no value whatsoever other than a few virtual bragging rights amongst our virtual friends.
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05/14/2007 01:57:32 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by dwterry:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
From my perspective, this manner of proceeding could be eradicated quite simply by stating in the rules that such activity can/will lead to a DQ. |
But should it lead to a DQ?
Originally posted by dwterry:
Think of your "Best of Year" shot. The one you plan to post in 2008 for your best of 2007. Should you begin "holding back", RIGHT NOW, any and all of your BEST images that you take today, this week, this month, this year for fear that you might accidentally expose "the one best image" that you would like to have posted for the best of year challenge? |
Or would you rather share some of your "best" images now and not wait for the end of the year? What if you haven't really decided which one(s) are your best? How will you decide what to share and what to hold back?
I think the answer to those questions are completely obvious. No, you do not hold back now because you have no idea what will ultimately be your best shot for the year. And besides, this site is about sharing and learning. Not about winning a prize.
With the answers to those questions so obvious ... it now becomes only a matter of scale.
Should you hold back any and all of your best shots today, this week, this month just because you're not sure what you'll be entering into the May Free Study?
The answer is perhaps a bit grayer. But certainly not black and white.
I think that, the shorter the time frame, the more black and white the situation becomes. But even on a single week challenge, I still wouldn't DQ someone just because they got excited and shared it on Monday then on Sunday decided at the last minute to submit it to a challenge.
The voters can judge their own reactions to the image. Do they appreciate not having seen it before? Does it bother them that they saw it in advance. Every voter should vote how they feel and when they do that the system will police itself *without* having to have yet another rule.
If there were "real prizes" to be won, then maybe the rules would need to be stricter. But these are virtual ribbons, of no value whatsoever other than a few virtual bragging rights amongst our virtual friends. |
I would argue that you have miscontrued my intent. I have no problems with people sharing their images... but I do most certainly have a great deal of problems with displaying images, seeking input, asking for photoshop help in an open forum and THEN entering that image in a contest.... that Sir is the gist of my argument.
As for the latter part of your comment, I would argue that bragging rights are fine...if indeed what you are bragging about is the product of your efforts... not those of the collective.
It is painfully aware that your mind is made up in this regard. I shall now bow out gracefully knowing that my integrity remains intact and that I will not partake in this type of activity. If I did seek any form of assistance, it most certainly will not be in an open forum.
Ray
Message edited by author 2007-05-14 13:58:44. |
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05/14/2007 02:35:22 PM · #120 |
For what it's worth, I'm not in complete disagreement with you either. I'm simply calling it gray rather than black and white and having a hard time with a DQ over a gray matter.
I do feel that asking for editing help and then submitting an image based on that help clouds the ethics a bit. But just "how much help" is considered too much help? If someone poses your model for you and you take the picture and do all the processing yourself, is it your picture? If you do all of the processing according to what someone recommended, is it your picture? It's all gray to me.
My fear is that the more rules you make, the more likely you are to drive good people away. And perhaps your point is that anarchy will also drive people away.
I'm just happy to not be a part of the SC. I have no authority over the matter and will live with whatever rules they come up with. I'm only stating my own opinion (as you and others have done) so that all sides get weighed in.
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05/14/2007 02:44:58 PM · #121 |
IMO Getting help before you ever press the shutter button is okay. After you capture the picture it is up to you to process whatever your creative mind can process. Then submit your final "I like it" to the challenge. After the challenge has ended and the voting has told you you are in need of some help. Then you can put up a forum about the photo and use the feedback to try again on the next challenge.
If I take a photo and then have someone else tell me what to do with it, I didn't process it. Though I may have pressed the buttons with the physical action to make changes the intelligence came from someone else. This just shows that you have no imagination or creativity.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" (Albert Einstein 1879-1955)
Explore your photoshop and find out what you can do with it! Then get feedback after the show or before the show with your idea not the image. |
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05/14/2007 03:03:03 PM · #122 |
for what it's worth in the middle of this heated discussion, just waana say I agree with mk (and others).
This is a site to have fun and learn. Some basic rules are here to provide a clear framework, and are rigorously enforced. But no rule will really prevent people from having bad ethics.
keep up the good work SC
Cheers
Originally posted by mk:
Have you ever used any of the tutorials on this site to process an entry? How about tutorials on another site? Should your images be disqualified?
I just don't think more babysitting is the answer. Then what becomes illegal...just if you post it in the forums? Or if it's in your portfolio? For how long? If someone saw it but you moved it before it had 3 views? If you post it on another site? I know that you regularly post your images elsewhere...if you get 5 people to comment on your image before you submit it, isn't that unfair to me if I don't show anyone? Would these rules hold true for any image, all the time? Free studies? Best of the year? What about similar shots?
Yes, I think it's totally sleazy to post in the forums and ask for feedback and then enter it into a challenge. But I also don't think it's an area we need to/or can get into policing. That's just my personal opinion, I don't know what the other SC (aside from the ones who have posted here) feel. |
Message edited by author 2007-05-14 15:04:03. |
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05/14/2007 03:19:18 PM · #123 |
Yes this is true. We are here to learn with the help of everyone else. So if you ask and receive your most likely going to try it. We all learn together from our collective knowledge of the world. But our imagination is what sets us apart as being different and creative.
Originally posted by mk:
Have you ever used any of the tutorials on this site to process an entry? How about tutorials on another site? Should your images be disqualified?
I just don't think more babysitting is the answer. Then what becomes illegal...just if you post it in the forums? Or if it's in your portfolio? For how long? If someone saw it but you moved it before it had 3 views? If you post it on another site? I know that you regularly post your images elsewhere...if you get 5 people to comment on your image before you submit it, isn't that unfair to me if I don't show anyone? Would these rules hold true for any image, all the time? Free studies? Best of the year? What about similar shots?
Yes, I think it's totally sleazy to post in the forums and ask for feedback and then enter it into a challenge. But I also don't think it's an area we need to/or can get into policing. That's just my personal opinion, I don't know what the other SC (aside from the ones who have posted here) feel. |
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05/14/2007 03:25:40 PM · #124 |
| With all this said, aren't you supposed to enter your own work? |
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