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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Getting help in forums before submitting??
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05/08/2007 04:47:47 PM · #51
Originally posted by Melethia:

I fear that those of us not in the DPL will begin to suffer a bit - we won't have teammates to help us pick which picture to enter nor offer editing advice, teach us neat tricks, etc. I suppose the answer to this is "join a team!" but I'm not comfortable with doing that - my scores don't support competition well.

This sums up how i feel.
05/08/2007 04:52:30 PM · #52
Originally posted by Ben:

Originally posted by Melethia:

I fear that those of us not in the DPL will begin to suffer a bit - we won't have teammates to help us pick which picture to enter nor offer editing advice, teach us neat tricks, etc. I suppose the answer to this is "join a team!" but I'm not comfortable with doing that - my scores don't support competition well.

This sums up how i feel.


Another way to look at it though is, some people work better by themselves, others work better in groups. I much much prefer to work by myself. I am, however, part of a team, for the fun of it. I don't think people are at a disadvantage because of not being on a team.

05/08/2007 04:53:14 PM · #53
I agree- the responsibility should not be placed on us. It's unreliable Even the photo in question did not recieve a single vote of 1. Maybe only a handful of people who saw it (or helped on it) int he forums saw it in voting or maybe it's because we assume that the photo will be DQ'd if he has done something wrong, so we vote purely on the photograph- Like it has been suggested.

05/08/2007 05:00:39 PM · #54
One thing to consider - folks who are new here may not know that it's not "polite" or "appropriate" to post pictures prior to a challenge and ask for help. This is a challenge site, yes, but it's also a learning site. Also, some folks may have been here awhile, but are new to the forums. The population of DPC as a whole is not fully reflected in the forum activity.

I, and a lot of others, entered a shot that had been in my portfolio for "Best of". If you have a great shot, you like to share it here - only makes sense. I did hide it long before that challenge, but it had been seen and was recognized, and I recognized the work of others. "Best of" is kind of an exception, I suppose, but I can see something like that happening in a Free Study, too. You post a shot early in the month to your portfolio, then later decide you want it for a free study. Should that be prohibited? There's a fine line between "intent to influence voters" and simply deciding on a shot that you may have already put in your portfolio. I don't see any way for the SC to police that.
05/08/2007 05:02:19 PM · #55
Originally posted by Melethia:

I hope that'll still be there, that people won't hide their "secrets" for the sake of the team - that kind of thing.


I don't think you have anything to worry there. DPC will never have a shortage of people ready to help you any way they can. Like others have said just a few comments above mine there are teams forming to be more a team and less competitive. You get to share your photo and learn more but the pressure of competing is lifted...and usually when that happens you find yourself submitting anyways and doing better than you though. Whatever you choose to do know that DPC changes for the better and will never leave people out of the "circle".
05/08/2007 05:07:19 PM · #56
Thanks Clint - good words!
05/08/2007 05:11:33 PM · #57
I agree that in this instance entering the photo after getting extensive help in the forums was tacky but I must say that I'm not comfortable with the suggestion to vote ones for an image seen in the forums, the ;ast thing we need is to encourage Troll voting. Often I've seen someone post an image in the forums and then another DPCer saying to get the photo of the forums and enter it, I have no issue with that either sometimes we just don't get that we've taken a worthwhile photo. But back to the voting, wouldn't it make more sense that if you recognize a photo just leave a comment saying, sorry but I can't vote on this one and move on. It works for the teams, they just don't vote on shots they've seen beforehand. Not all the voters frequent the forums but for those that do and have seen the photo, just don't vote on it, simple.
05/08/2007 05:18:58 PM · #58
Originally posted by Sting11165:

Originally posted by KarenNfld:

Originally posted by Melethia:

I fear that those of us not in the DPL will begin to suffer a bit - we won't have teammates to help us pick which picture to enter nor offer editing advice, teach us neat tricks, etc. I suppose the answer to this is "join a team!" but I'm not comfortable with doing that - my scores don't support competition well.


I agree with you 100%!! I am not in the DPL for many reasons, one of which is I don't feel comfortable with the pressure of having to submit a photo for a challenge. For example, I never shoot self portraits, nudes, candids, or portraits. Sports, pets, animals and many other topics are others I rarely shoot.


Hey, for those of you who don't want the pressure from the DPL but want the benefits:

Start a team based on collaborating instead of doing well. As long as everyone on the team knows, going in, that you aren't expecting to do well in the league, you can focus on the social aspects of the DPL, have fun, and learn a lot. Just make sure everyone knows that it isn't about submitting to all the challenges or getting the best possible score.

I guarantee you could get the needed people for a team or two.

The part of the DPL I'm most excited about is the ability to collaborate with others before submission!


I don't think that would be fair to the rest of the league when one division has a team who isn't really playing. However, I do like the idea and think you should suggest it as a standalone. In other words, have a a feature on the site that allows you to select x amount of users who can't vote on your work that way you can share with them your entries. You'd have to make it so that the people being selected must confirm it otherwise you'll get people selecting those with low average vote casts just so those people can't vote on your entries. :P
05/08/2007 05:19:05 PM · #59
Originally posted by Wildcard:

I agree that in this instance entering the photo after getting extensive help in the forums was tacky but I must say that I'm not comfortable with the suggestion to vote ones for an image seen in the forums ...

To clarify, I don't think anyone has suggested that you have to vote a "one" -- only that you can take the break in anonymity into account when you assign a score; you might, for example, give a photo you'd have otherwise scored a seven or eight a four instead.
05/08/2007 05:24:47 PM · #60
I have two thoughts:
1) Has anyone, including either the original poster or the person who "outed" the shot, actually sent a PM to the photographer to ask what his intent was?

I have, once or twice, put something out for general comment in the forums and then later decided that was my best option for a challenge. It wasn't my intent to take advantage of anyone or a planned advance effort to get others to process my shot.

2) Now that it's been identified, could the SC please look into that specific shot? I'm okay with the SC members making up their own minds about whether the shot was "processed" by that person and I'll be satsified with whatever decision the SC makes.

Either way, DPC will benefit from an SC decision on the record.
05/08/2007 05:29:48 PM · #61
SC members: I think the discussion has veered too far into a discussion of anonymity and is missing the key question of this thread: when is giving someone editing steps going too far? If someone tells me exactly how to edit something, including exact steps and values for all quantities, and I do it, did I break the rule about processing my own photo? If the answer is that's illegal, then we know at least there's a limit, and we'd need to be careful not to get too specific. If, however, it's legal, then we now know there's no limit in what type of suggestion can be shared and used.

As an alternative to forming DPL teams that aren't really there to compete, how about just creating a sharing/learning group, and everyone who participates agrees not to vote on the shots when they come up?

Voting records are always available to SC and admins, so they can keep an eye on things to be sure no friend voting happens, people get great advice pre-entry, and everyone can decide whether or not to participate.

Before joining, though, I'd want the question above answered by a majority of SC members.
05/08/2007 05:30:23 PM · #62
To be clear- is the extensive help that was sought out before the shot was entered that bothered me. I understand that this is a learning site but you take what you learn and attempt to apply to a challenge entry, IMO you do not submit the correct photo.

I personally have not bothered to bring the photographer into this, but only because my original intent was not to call someone out- but to find out if a rule stood against this or not. I do not necessarily believe his intent was cruel, but obviously the process helped him.
05/08/2007 05:48:41 PM · #63
I can't believe this thread. After banning people for friend voting and all the upset that followed, it seems unbelievable that someone could get so much help with a shot in the forums from several people before submission .... where is the anonymity hear. As for the arguments about the learning/teaching aspect, is that not what the comment box on the voting screen is for...
A photo shown in the public forums should be DQ'ed
05/08/2007 05:59:40 PM · #64
Originally posted by ursula:

...It would be unenforceable. Can't do that.


I would beg to differ, as in this instance I know for a fact that this particular issue was brought to the attention of the SC at the very beginning of the voting phase.

If a rule is made and people are provided with the information as to what constitutes a violation, there is no reason why this type of activity cannot be curtailed.

Is it feasible that someone could circumvent the rules? ... most definitely, but I would hazard a guess that it would certainly do away with what we are witnessing in this instance.

Just a thought,

Ray
05/08/2007 06:17:03 PM · #65
Having participated in the 30 day Portrait Challenge I found I had no new shot left for the free Study.

So I hid an image in my portfolio, reedited the original and submitted it.



I liked it. It got 5.4 & 37%. I still like it. Where's all that good advice when you need it ?

I wouldn't dream of doing this with a weekly challenge, but early in a month there is no way of knowing what you'll consider to be your best shot, the one you want to keep back.

it seems to me that free studies, by virtue of the time lag involved and the lack of theme are inherently different from weekly challenges and that different rules ought to apply.
05/08/2007 06:22:23 PM · #66
There's a difference, in my opinion, between having a shot out there previously, and getting a ton of help that you follow when you submit.

I like that SC doesn't try to police where we put our images up on other forums, and recognizes that in free studies, sometimes the images will show up here at DPC before voting. But I think there's a line that gets crossed between "violating (the guideline, not hard-and-fast rule of) anonymity" and "not processing the entry yourself".
05/08/2007 06:34:10 PM · #67
Originally posted by thelobster:

it seems to me that free studies, by virtue of the time lag involved and the lack of theme are inherently different from weekly challenges and that different rules ought to apply.


I concur with this line of thinking, on the same grounds that your Best of Year shots are likely to have already been seen by many people.

And how, on earth, would the SC ever "police" any type of off-site views and/or editing help? What if the submitter was helped by viewers on another web site? What if the submitter was helped by a local friend with photoshop skills?

Is it a major faux pas to have gotten help from DPC members? Perhaps. But had the help come from anyone else, who would be the wiser?

It's a learning site. It's a virtual contest, with virtual ribbons. We're all virtual friends. There's nothing to be gained or lost here except experience. Don't let it spoil the enjoyment. Just enjoy the site for what it is and ignore what it isn't. :-)


05/08/2007 06:37:19 PM · #68
HONESTLY you guys want MORE policing from the Site Council? We are not here to teach every one of you ethics. We're here to try to enforce some basic rules and keep play fair. If you think someone played unfair, vote with your heart. If you think someone's photo is technically wonderful but misses the challenge, vote with your heart. That's not *biased* voting. I'm shocked to hear such an accusation, however politely worded.

Voting is subjective. Its personal. It takes into account all sorts of things, including the ethics of the photographer. We say in the voting rules that you can vote down for not meeting the challenge. Why not vote down for other things that may offend you? Its your vote! Don't let ideas about "politically correct" influence what you feel YOUR opinion on a photo is. Its not just the photo, its the challenge, the subject, your own mood that day..everything that comes into play in your vote. Use it with your own conscience and your own ethics.

Don't vote your friend's photos all 10s because they're your friends. And don't vote everyone else's photos a 1 because you want to do well. Other than that, your vote is your own! No one is telling you HOW to vote, but we're telling you that its OK if you want to take such ethics into account when you DO vote. How else do you tell people how you feel?

Message edited by author 2007-05-08 18:38:17.
05/08/2007 06:39:02 PM · #69
Its comes down to this, take the photo yourself, process the photo yourself and keep it to yourself until the voting is over. If there really is no anonymity, why hide the names during voting? Seriously, I'm not trying to stir the pot but let us all have a fair shot. I don't give me that such a rule can't be enforced. I don't buy that.

Peace,

g
05/08/2007 06:40:12 PM · #70
Originally posted by yanko:

I don't think that would be fair to the rest of the league when one division has a team who isn't really playing. However, I do like the idea and think you should suggest it as a standalone. In other words, have a a feature on the site that allows you to select x amount of users who can't vote on your work that way you can share with them your entries. You'd have to make it so that the people being selected must confirm it otherwise you'll get people selecting those with low average vote casts just so those people can't vote on your entries. :P


Maybe a team could make a team but opt out to enter this season. Teams that are made will be able to use the team page even if they aren't in the current season. I'm sure any team that does DPL1 can hang out and jump back in DPL3 without their team page being deleted. Thus allowing them to see each others photo but not being able to vote on them.
05/08/2007 06:42:46 PM · #71
Originally posted by frisca:

HONESTLY you guys want MORE policing from the Site Council?


Personally, when it regards a rule that has already been stated/made official (process your entries yourself) then yes, I would want that "policed".
05/08/2007 06:43:13 PM · #72
Who's got the popcorn?
05/08/2007 06:46:09 PM · #73
Originally posted by dwterry:

Originally posted by thelobster:

it seems to me that free studies, by virtue of the time lag involved and the lack of theme are inherently different from weekly challenges and that different rules ought to apply.


I concur with this line of thinking, on the same grounds that your Best of Year shots are likely to have already been seen by many people.

And how, on earth, would the SC ever "police" any type of off-site views and/or editing help? What if the submitter was helped by viewers on another web site? What if the submitter was helped by a local friend with photoshop skills?

Is it a major faux pas to have gotten help from DPC members? Perhaps. But had the help come from anyone else, who would be the wiser?

It's a learning site. It's a virtual contest, with virtual ribbons. We're all virtual friends. There's nothing to be gained or lost here except experience. Don't let it spoil the enjoyment. Just enjoy the site for what it is and ignore what it isn't. :-)


Its not the point that he got help, the point is he used the same photo in a challenge on DPC in a DPC thread BEFORE the challenge. So everyone on this site had the chance to see that photo from the beginning to its finish. No one is saying not to help one another but not on a photo you are entering in a challenge. If something happens off the DPC site, that's out of the boundries of DPC. But anytime I have read in a thread that someone wanted to show a photo they are considering for a challenge, I have seen someone else say, no don't post it. Just make it fair.

peace,

g
05/08/2007 06:46:39 PM · #74
what if he used the tips suggested by Nikolai on another photo? What if he used only 49% of the tips from Nikolai and the rest he thought of himself? What if he used 15% of those tips and the rest himself? What if he actually used a tutorial from somewhere on how to edit a magazine ad portrait and used that? Everyone learns from one another, and from the web.

Yes, I agree, what that user did seems pretty unethical, but we're not the ethics police. He is in compliance with the rule because the rule is about you actually doing the processing (pushing the buttons) yourself. its not about original ideas because hardly anyone has those anymore.

And yes, he shouldn't have posted it, but while we value anonymity, we've consciously made a decision here on DPC to not make it a DQ-able offence to violate anonymity because that would mean more policing that we can do (like checking out the whole of the internet to make sure no one posted their entry anywhere else..etc) so we tell the VOTERS to be the ones to tell people what they think of blowing anonymity. Say it with your votes! This is democratic power you have...come on! People die for this stuff.

Message edited by author 2007-05-08 18:49:11.
05/08/2007 06:46:55 PM · #75
Originally posted by _eug:

Who's got the popcorn?


Actually I do!! Just bought some with cheese to put on top!! ;-)
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