| Author | Thread |
|
|
05/08/2007 10:19:19 AM · #26 |
There are other instances of people telegraphing...images and models that I feel should be handled or guarded against in some way.
This particular case is clearly not the coolest thing I've seen but there are few others that violate the rules/code of anonymity in a number of ways and I think the issue could be better addressed.
Message edited by author 2007-05-08 11:32:56. |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 11:23:06 AM · #27 |
| this is quite a conumdrum...i have to choose between entering challenges or being able to share my work on an ongoing basis. most of the time, i end up doing neither because i either run out of time or have moved on to shooting something else. all the same, i'd rather miss out on a challenge than tamper with anonymity... |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 01:52:00 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
There is no explicit rule on this one way or the other. We tend to be a bit more permissive of this on Free Studies than we otherwise would, since many times users will post a photograph to the forums not thinking at the time that they would use it for the Free Study. |
Perhaps the time has come to create a rule that dictates that any images brought forth for general discussion and input cannot be submitted to any forthcoming challenge. This manner of proceeding would ensure that all are on the same page and would eradicate the need for discussions of this ilk.
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
That said, if we were to see someone doing it repeatedly (which, to the best of my recollection, has never happened), we would probably ask them to stop. If they still continued, I guess it might be considered an attempt to manipulate votes at that point. I'm really just making an educated guess, though, since we've never had it escalate that far, so there's no precedent for me to refer to. |
I have difficulty in comprehending how it is that this could be considered an attempt to manipulate votes only after repeated attempts. Most activities deemed to be beyond the norms of a collective are deemed so at the onset and not after multiple incidents. Surely if something is considered an illegal activity, it must be so from the start and not necessitate any form of recidivism before it is acted upon.
Consideration might be given to developing a mechanism to preclude this type of activity, which is currently viewed by some as a means to garner both favourable exposure and possibly an attempt at vote manipulation.
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Part of the reason it doesn't get that far is that it does tend to hurt them in the voting. This does kind of help the situation take care of itself.~Terry |
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to exactly how you arrived at that conclusion. If indeed there is empirical evidence to support your views, would love to see it. If one takes a cursory view of the scoring scale for the image in question, that argument seemingly does not hold.
This scenario and others that I have witnessed in the past give rise to several questions on my part as to some of the rules and their interpretations. It is certainly not my intention to cast aspersions on any of the SC as I have nothing but a deep admiration for their dedication in performing what is for the most part a thankless task.
Having said that, there are areas which I contend are rife for abuse and which enable some to gain what could be perceived as an unfair advantage. It must be borne in mind that in a venue such as DPC that "Fairness" or the perception of fairness is of paramount importance, and that viewed in a social context, equality is moral in that the happiness of one person cannot be considered more important than any another or the collective.
Just another man's perspective.
Ray |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 02:11:23 PM · #29 |
For my 2 cents worth I believe this to be a more demeaning action than buddy voting.
If you can't photograph and pp an image of your own accord, without the help of others why be in DPC.
Have the discussion after the challenge as to what my have made the image better.
I believe the administrator's Should act ASAP to bring in a rule to prevent this.
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 02:40:00 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by hywind:
For my 2 cents worth I believe this to be a more demeaning action than buddy voting.
If you can't photograph and pp an image of your own accord, without the help of others why be in DPC. |
To learn, of course.
I think there's nothing wrong with asking for help and aping someone else's techniques when they're kind enough to share them with you. I don't want to see anything happen that discourages people from sharing and learning. HOWEVER, I don't think it's right to use that same photo in a challenge, especially when you're actually using someone else's pp work. Use what you've learned on a different photo and submit THAT one instead, and everything is cool.
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:07:55 PM · #31 |
If you see an image in a challenge that's previously been posted in the forums and you don't agree with the practice, then ding it with a low score and leave a note about why. If enough people care, then the score will reflect that and the photographer is unlikely to do it again.
Can we make it illegal to submit something you've posted previously? Sure, but do we really need to require more policing from the SC? You have power, use it.
Message edited by author 2007-05-08 15:10:17. |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:09:43 PM · #32 |
I agree with Rebecca. I also think what he has done is soliciting for votes in the same way of asking your friends to vote for you. Its not right or fair to those of us who do pp on our own and submit to the challenges. I learn plenty from forums then take that knowledge and apply it to my own work without revealing the photo I want to submit.
I have always "assumed" that you were allowed to show your entries in forums. I think that should be the rule.
Peace,
g
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:15:13 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by mk:
If you see an image in a challenge that's previously been posted in the forums and you don't agree with the practice, then ding it with a low score and leave a note about why. If enough people care, then the score will reflect that and the photographer is unlikely to do it again.
Can we make it illegal to submit something you've posted previously? Sure, but do we really need to requiring more policing from the SC? You have power, use it. |
Just so I have this right, I want to clarify: SC is now encouraging us to ignore the voting rules? Ignore the voting scale and cast a biased vote?
You must rate entries on a scale of 1 to 10. A score of 1 is a âbadâ photo, and a score of 10 is a âgoodâ photo"
You may not offer or cast biased votes for any other user.
I don't mean to be argumentative, really. But everything so far, SC's apparent reluctance to apply the one universal processing rule requiring a photographer post-processes his/her own photo, and now encouraging members who are upset by this to cast biased votes in violation of the voting rules, is just bizarre.
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:15:23 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by mk:
Can we make it illegal to submit something you've posted previously? Sure, but do we really need to require more policing from the SC? You have power, use it. |
What if the photo wins? What if only a handful see the photo? Is it still fair that he wins and those of us who pp on our own lose out? I'm just asking...not looking for a fight.
Peace,
g
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:24:18 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
I don't mean to be argumentative, really. But everything so far, SC's apparent reluctance to apply the one universal processing rule requiring a photographer post-processes his/her own photo, and now encouraging members who are upset by this to cast biased votes in violation of the voting rules, is just bizarre. |
Have you ever used any of the tutorials on this site to process an entry? How about tutorials on another site? Should your images be disqualified?
I just don't think more babysitting is the answer. Then what becomes illegal...just if you post it in the forums? Or if it's in your portfolio? For how long? If someone saw it but you moved it before it had 3 views? If you post it on another site? I know that you regularly post your images elsewhere...if you get 5 people to comment on your image before you submit it, isn't that unfair to me if I don't show anyone? Would these rules hold true for any image, all the time? Free studies? Best of the year? What about similar shots?
Yes, I think it's totally sleazy to post in the forums and ask for feedback and then enter it into a challenge. But I also don't think it's an area we need to/or can get into policing. That's just my personal opinion, I don't know what the other SC (aside from the ones who have posted here) feel.
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:31:17 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by mk:
Have you ever used any of the tutorials on this site to process an entry? How about tutorials on another site? Should your images be disqualified? |
I said earlier that I believe that's a totally different thing. What I'm talking about is not learning from other photos and tutorials to apply them to your work, but other people doing the work for you and claiming it as your own. All anyone should have to do is request validation and point to the link. The proof is right there - I'd be very surprised if this put any huge unbearable strain on SC.
Let's put it this way: it's like waving toward a pretty landscape, asking "so how do I photograph that properly?". Then someone who isn't you sets everything up for you with the camera. Finally, you press the button and take all the credit. That's against the rules, too, and it really isn't any different - and that one is harder to prove.
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:33:54 PM · #37 |
Not that my opinion really brings anything to the conversation, but for the sake of supporting the side I agree with:
I also think there should be a rule that you cannot post a picture in the forums and then post it in a challenge. You can learn a lot from asking for pp help, but don't forget you can always do that after a challenge is over, which I think is a lot more fair.
I don't really buy the argument that someone got help and then decided to submit to a freestudy - there's a freestudy going on all the time so if someone really likes a certain photo they should just hold off on getting forum help until after they decide whether to submit it to a challenge. |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:35:27 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by KarenNfld:
Originally posted by Melethia:
I fear that those of us not in the DPL will begin to suffer a bit - we won't have teammates to help us pick which picture to enter nor offer editing advice, teach us neat tricks, etc. I suppose the answer to this is "join a team!" but I'm not comfortable with doing that - my scores don't support competition well. |
I agree with you 100%!! I am not in the DPL for many reasons, one of which is I don't feel comfortable with the pressure of having to submit a photo for a challenge. For example, I never shoot self portraits, nudes, candids, or portraits. Sports, pets, animals and many other topics are others I rarely shoot. |
Hey, for those of you who don't want the pressure from the DPL but want the benefits:
Start a team based on collaborating instead of doing well. As long as everyone on the team knows, going in, that you aren't expecting to do well in the league, you can focus on the social aspects of the DPL, have fun, and learn a lot. Just make sure everyone knows that it isn't about submitting to all the challenges or getting the best possible score.
I guarantee you could get the needed people for a team or two.
The part of the DPL I'm most excited about is the ability to collaborate with others before submission!
Message edited by author 2007-05-08 15:36:45. |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:46:37 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by Rebecca:
I don't mean to be argumentative, really. But everything so far, SC's apparent reluctance to apply the one universal processing rule requiring a photographer post-processes his/her own photo, and now encouraging members who are upset by this to cast biased votes in violation of the voting rules, is just bizarre. |
Have you ever used any of the tutorials on this site to process an entry? How about tutorials on another site? Should your images be disqualified?
|
I think you are missing the point. Its a very basic rule that can be made. Do not reveal your entries if you intend to enter them into the challenges. This person asked for help on a particular photo then entered said photo. I'm asking for fairness. I don't reveal any of my photos to anyone before I enter them into the challanges but I assumed that was the rule. You are also asking us to abandon the rules of voting by voting bias against the photo. Technically, it was a great photo but who acutally pp the photo, the photographer or the people in the forum who told him how to do it. Its all about fairness. If you use the forums to LEARN how to pp a photo, then of course it shouldn't be DQ'd but if you post it in a forum then enter it...absolutely. Its only fair.
Peace,
g
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:48:59 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by Rebecca:
I don't mean to be argumentative, really. But everything so far, SC's apparent reluctance to apply the one universal processing rule requiring a photographer post-processes his/her own photo, and now encouraging members who are upset by this to cast biased votes in violation of the voting rules, is just bizarre. |
Have you ever used any of the tutorials on this site to process an entry? How about tutorials on another site? Should your images be disqualified?
|
I think you are missing the point. Its a very basic rule that can be made. Do not reveal your entries if you intend to enter them into the challenges. This person asked for help on a particular photo then entered said photo. I'm asking for fairness. I don't reveal any of my photos to anyone before I enter them into the challanges but I assumed that was the rule. You are also asking us to abandon the rules of voting by voting bias against the photo. Technically, it was a great photo but who acutally pp the photo, the photographer or the people in the forum who told him how to do it. Its all about fairness. If you use the forums to LEARN how to pp a photo, then of course it shouldn't be DQ'd but if you post it in a forum then enter it...absolutely. Its only fair.
Peace,
g |
I am not missing the point. I have a different opinion than you do. And the rules prohibit voting with bias against a user, not against a photo. |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:51:30 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by mk:
And the rules prohibit voting with bias against a user, not against a photo. |
This is true. But when you vote a photo low because you're pissed off that you saw it in the forums receiving help just the day before, that is a biased vote against the user.
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:52:14 PM · #42 |
You only need 4 scores out of a possible 7 person team. If you are all collaborating then you might find yourself entering photos you like to challenges you might not have entered by yourself. It's not that much pressure if you don't want it to be...it gets people out of there secluded place on DPC and allows them an outlet to talk regularly to the same people who will grow with you and will be beneficial to you all. There is nothing wrong with the DPL...only people looking to make it wrong.
Sorry for the hijack...this DPL discussion should find its own thread if we want to continue this conversation.
Clint |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:52:33 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Sting11165:
Hey, for those of you who don't want the pressure from the DPL but want the benefits:
Start a team based on collaborating instead of doing well. As long as everyone on the team knows, going in, that you aren't expecting to do well in the league, you can focus on the social aspects of the DPL, have fun, and learn a lot. Just make sure everyone knows that it isn't about submitting to all the challenges or getting the best possible score. |
Earlier today Team "Too Lazy to Shoot" was created for exactly this reason. 3 Spots open.  acrotide is captain. ;)
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 03:56:45 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by mk:
If you see an image in a challenge that's previously been posted in the forums and you don't agree with the practice, then ding it with a low score and leave a note about why. If enough people care, then the score will reflect that and the photographer is unlikely to do it again.
Can we make it illegal to submit something you've posted previously? Sure, but do we really need to require more policing from the SC? You have power, use it. |
Guess I have to go back to this quote. If we are upset that the photographer posted the photo before the challenge, then we have to power to vote it down and leave a message why. I would say that is voting down the photographer not the photo. Right? Again, just asking for fairness.
Peace,
g
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 04:07:40 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by TomFoolery:
You only need 4 scores out of a possible 7 person team. If you are all collaborating then you might find yourself entering photos you like to challenges you might not have entered by yourself. It's not that much pressure if you don't want it to be...it gets people out of there secluded place on DPC and allows them an outlet to talk regularly to the same people who will grow with you and will be beneficial to you all. There is nothing wrong with the DPL...only people looking to make it wrong.
Sorry for the hijack...this DPL discussion should find its own thread if we want to continue this conversation.
Clint |
I don't mean to say that the DPL is a bad thing - I think it's great for those that enjoy the competition and it does create strong friendships and mentorsips. I just think those of us not playing are going to lose out a bit. I don't want to be on a team because I generally don't score very well - I don't want to feel that I've let people down because my entry failed to garner enough points to help us beat the other guys. I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way, either.
I just hope that the general level of assistance here will stay the same - when people need help on a shot (not prior to a challenge or for the purposes of a challenge) I hope that'll still be there, that people won't hide their "secrets" for the sake of the team - that kind of thing. |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 04:23:01 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
....
If we are upset that the photographer posted the photo before the challenge, then we have to power to vote it down and leave a message why.
....
|
Yes, you do. You don't even have to leave a message why (if you do, you might have to put up with PMs and public outcries), but if you do leave a message, do it respectfully. You have all the right in the world to give an image a low vote because of whatever reason you have that make that particular image deserving of a low vote. |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 04:28:06 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
....
If we are upset that the photographer posted the photo before the challenge, then we have to power to vote it down and leave a message why.
....
|
Yes, you do. You don't even have to leave a message why (if you do, you might have to put up with PMs and public outcries), but if you do leave a message, do it respectfully. You have all the right in the world to give an image a low vote because of whatever reason you have that make that particular image deserving of a low vote. |
...except for bias against the photographer. Per the rules. And any vote on an entry for this particular reason is a "how dare you submit this here after getting all that help in plain view" vote against the photographer. It has nothing to do with the quality of the photo. This is what I find confusing, hearing this encouragement for blatantly disregarding the rule coming from members of Site Council, especially after all the attention paid to voting scandals lately.
Message edited by author 2007-05-08 16:28:50.
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 04:33:50 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
....
If we are upset that the photographer posted the photo before the challenge, then we have to power to vote it down and leave a message why.
....
|
Yes, you do. You don't even have to leave a message why (if you do, you might have to put up with PMs and public outcries), but if you do leave a message, do it respectfully. You have all the right in the world to give an image a low vote because of whatever reason you have that make that particular image deserving of a low vote. |
Just make it a rule. If its a rule then we don't have to vote bias and get the nasty PM's and and deal with public outcries. Why put the burden on the ones that play fair and to take the brunt of what we feel is an injustice. I try to be very diplomatic more so here lately since I have had a few, well, difference of opinions with some people. Its not about voting the photo low, its about making people accountable for their actions. I just want things as fair as possible for everyone.
peace,
g
|
|
|
|
05/08/2007 04:40:31 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
....
If we are upset that the photographer posted the photo before the challenge, then we have to power to vote it down and leave a message why.
....
|
Yes, you do. You don't even have to leave a message why (if you do, you might have to put up with PMs and public outcries), but if you do leave a message, do it respectfully. You have all the right in the world to give an image a low vote because of whatever reason you have that make that particular image deserving of a low vote. |
...except for bias against the photographer. Per the rules. And any vote on an entry for this particular reason is a "how dare you submit this here after getting all that help in plain view" vote against the photographer. It has nothing to do with the quality of the photo. This is what I find confusing, hearing this encouragement for blatantly disregarding the rule coming from members of Site Council, especially after all the attention paid to voting scandals lately. |
Nobody is encouraging anyone to vote with bias or to blatantly disregard the rules. On the contrary. Voting an image low for breaking anonymity, if that bothers you, has always been perfectly legal. If breaking anonymity bothers you, it's the one way you can do something about it. If you choose to interpret that as a bias against the photographer, or the photo, so be it - but it isn't. It's a bias against tryint to take advantage of the situation.
There is no rule at DPC that images have to be anonymous to be part of a challenge. It would be impossible to enforce such a rule. There has always been the understanding though, and the encouragement, that images remain anonymous before and during the voting stage. I think it is important to at least try to stay anonymous. It's not always easy to keep images anonymous, because people have styles and subjects/models that are recognizeable. But to go ahead and ask for help with a particular image and then post it to a challenge is to me going too far. Same with posting the same image to a portfolio while voting is going on, or very similar images. I do not like that. IMO, and this is just my opinion, what people who do that are counting on is higher votes because of familiarity. Again IMO, it tends to work both ways - some people will vote higher because of familiarity, others lower. Our vote, however, is our tool to express our opinion on any of the images in a challenge. If, in our opinion, the image deserves a 1 because it was made very public beforehand, that is a valid opinion. You can't take that away. |
|
|
|
05/08/2007 04:41:11 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
....
If we are upset that the photographer posted the photo before the challenge, then we have to power to vote it down and leave a message why.
....
|
Yes, you do. You don't even have to leave a message why (if you do, you might have to put up with PMs and public outcries), but if you do leave a message, do it respectfully. You have all the right in the world to give an image a low vote because of whatever reason you have that make that particular image deserving of a low vote. |
Just make it a rule. If its a rule then we don't have to vote bias and get the nasty PM's and and deal with public outcries. Why put the burden on the ones that play fair and to take the brunt of what we feel is an injustice. I try to be very diplomatic more so here lately since I have had a few, well, difference of opinions with some people. Its not about voting the photo low, its about making people accountable for their actions. I just want things as fair as possible for everyone.
peace,
g |
It would be unenforceable. Can't do that. |
|
