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04/28/2007 10:26:59 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by photodude:
We need to apply basic doctrine to the Islamic world. It's really simple. How about for every American killed in an Islamic Terrorist incident, we will randomly kill 1,000 Islamics residing in Islamic countries around the world. |
Not sure how tongue in cheek this is, but at the very least, I'm sure you recognize how absurd a notion it is. If it's something you're serious about, it's patently offensive and causes little wonder that Americans with such views are reviled the world over. Perhaps you'd like to chair the committee to select the victims. Make sure it's a nice little out of the way spot full of women and children, as Lidice was, for example. |
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04/28/2007 10:28:28 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by photodude:
Yes they are willing to sacrifice volunteer extremists. But when there is a real threat that if they do this, thier parents, brothers, sisters, children, grandchildren, friends and neighbors may be randomly killed it puts a different spin on the equation. |
No, it wouldn't. It simply makes their parents, brothers, sisters, children, grandchildren, friends and neighbors into martyrs. They're already willing to blow up their Muslim brothers in marketplaces and shops. That's not to mention the disturbing tactic of using small children as decoys inside car bombs. These people are so fanatical that they would not hesitate to sacrifice their nearest and dearest friends and family to their cause. How is it that you think killing some random group that might contain a relative of some sort would be a deterrent?
It would also have the effect of turning that portion of the population that isn't against the US to being totally against the US.
Message edited by author 2007-04-28 10:33:48. |
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04/28/2007 10:31:57 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by photodude:
Yes they are willing to sacrifice volunteer extremists. But when there is a real threat that if they do this, thier parents, brothers, sisters, children, grandchildren, friends and neighbors may be randomly killed it puts a different spin on the equation. |
No, it wouldn't. It simply makes their parents, brothers, sisters, children, grandchildren, friends and neighbors into martyrs.
It would also have the effect of turning that portion of the population that isn't against the US to being totally against the US. |
They can hate me all they want from 5,000 miles away. That's ok as long as they know that any violent actions will cause massive retalliation. |
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04/28/2007 10:35:36 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by photodude:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by photodude:
Yes they are willing to sacrifice volunteer extremists. But when there is a real threat that if they do this, thier parents, brothers, sisters, children, grandchildren, friends and neighbors may be randomly killed it puts a different spin on the equation. |
No, it wouldn't. It simply makes their parents, brothers, sisters, children, grandchildren, friends and neighbors into martyrs.
It would also have the effect of turning that portion of the population that isn't against the US to being totally against the US. |
They can hate me all they want from 5,000 miles away. That's ok as long as they know that any violent actions will cause massive retalliation. |
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building.
And who are you retaliating against? Random innocents? Or do you condemn all Muslims equally? Maybe just Muslims from the Middle East?
Message edited by author 2007-04-28 10:38:41. |
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04/28/2007 10:37:59 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Politicians Seek More Power For Themselves - Story at 11.
And tomorrow watch our special investigative report - Sun Continues To Rise In The East. |
Despite your constant and tiresome sarcasm, I'll respond to this.
Quotes to follow.
Grover Norquist, a principal organizer of the conservative movement who is close to the Bush White House and usually supports its policies, says, "If you interpret the Constitution's saying that the president is commander in chief to mean that the president can do anything he wants and can ignore the laws you don't have a constitution: you have a king." He adds, "They're not trying to change the law; they're saying that they're above the law and in the case of the NSA wiretaps they break it."
Dianne Feinstein, Democratic senator from California, talks of a "very broad effort" being made "to increase the power of the executive." Chuck Hagel, Republican senator from Nebraska, says: There's a very clear pattern of aggressively asserting executive power, and the Congress has essentially been complicit in letting him do it. The key is that Bush has a Republican Congress; of course if it was a Clinton presidency we'd be holding hearings.
During the presidency of George W. Bush, the White House has made an unprecedented reach for power. It has systematically attempted to defy, control, or threaten the institutions that could challenge it: Congress, the courts, and the press. It has attempted to upset the balance of power among the three branches of government provided for in the Constitution; but its most aggressive and consistent assaults have been against the legislative branch: Bush has time and again said that he feels free to carry out a law as he sees fit, not as Congress wrote it.
[In a certain bill, Bush included] a "signing statement," that he would interpret the bill as he wished. In fact Bush had been issuing such signing statements since the outset of his administration.
Perhaps most important:
Bush has cited two grounds for flouting the will of Congress, or of unilaterally expanding presidential powers. One is the claim of the "inherent" power of the commander in chief.
Second is a heretofore obscure doctrine called the unitary executive, which gives the president power over Congress and the courts. The concept of a unitary executive holds that the executive branch can overrule the courts and Congress on the basis of the president's own interpretations of the Constitution, in effect overturning Marbury v. Madison (1803), which established the principle of judicial review, and the constitutional concept of checks and balances.
Full article.
Just another run-of-the-mill, nothing-to-worry-about, everything's-fine-in-paradise grab for power, huh? |
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04/28/2007 10:38:08 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building. |
What did we do to them to earn the jetliners flying into the towers on 9/11?
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04/28/2007 10:46:25 AM · #32 |
[/quote]
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building.
And who are you retaliating against? Random innocents? Or do you condemn all Muslims equally? Maybe just Muslims from the Middle East? [/quote]
In WW2 not all Germans were Nazi's but most supported the Nazi efforts
In WW2 most Japanese supported Imperialism.
I won't say that every single Islamic is a terrorist but mainstream Islam supports the terrorists and what they do. We are considered infidels.
We can not afford to be surgical. They are all in the club, and the club must change its thinking and philosphy or perish. |
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04/28/2007 10:49:32 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building. |
What did we do to them to earn the jetliners flying into the towers on 9/11? |
Plenty.
Read your history book. Don't leave out the Crusades, colonialism, the forcible establishment of Israel, feeding arms to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq War, the establishment of puppet regimes in Iran and Iraq. I'm sure there are many other examples, but covering those should give you some insight into their hatred for the US, assuming you can read with a mind open enough to look at it from their POV .
Specifically read about the US policy and actions regarding the proxy war the CIA conducted against the Red Army in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Make sure you don't skip the part about the US canceling all foreign aid to our "friends" that helped the US deal a defeat to the Red Army as part of the Cold War. Some friends the US turned out to be. |
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04/28/2007 10:50:53 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by photodude:
I won't say that every single Islamic is a terrorist but mainstream Islam supports the terrorists and what they do. We are considered infidels. |
That's pretty ignorant. Mainstream Islam does not support terrorists and what they do. That would be the "extremists". It's clear now why you think slaughtering innocent children is a good thing. You have no idea what you're talking about. |
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04/28/2007 10:54:03 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by photodude:
I won't say that every single Islamic is a terrorist but mainstream Islam supports the terrorists and what they do. We are considered infidels.
We can not afford to be surgical. They are all in the club, and the club must change its thinking and philosphy or perish. |
This is one of, if not the most, ignorant statements I have ever seen. |
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04/28/2007 10:55:10 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by Louis:
[quote=photodude]That's pretty ignorant. Mainstream Islam does not support terrorists and what they do. That would be the "extremists". |
Keep believing that. |
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04/28/2007 10:57:01 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building. |
What did we do to them to earn the jetliners flying into the towers on 9/11? |
Plenty.
Read your history book. Don't leave out the Crusades, colonialism, the forcible establishment of Israel, feeding arms to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq War, the establishment of puppet regimes in Iran and Iraq. I'm sure there are many other examples, but covering those should give you some insight into their hatred for the US, assuming you can read with a mind open enough to look at it from their POV .
Specifically read about the US policy and actions regarding the proxy war the CIA conducted against the Red Army in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Make sure you don't skip the part about the US canceling all foreign aid to our "friends" that helped the US deal a defeat to the Red Army as part of the Cold War. Some friends the US turned out to be. |
So they were justified in crashing jetliners into the WTC?
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04/28/2007 10:57:30 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Just another run-of-the-mill, nothing-to-worry-about, everything's-fine-in-paradise grab for power, huh? |
Correct.
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04/28/2007 11:15:32 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building. |
What did we do to them to earn the jetliners flying into the towers on 9/11? |
Plenty.
Read your history book. Don't leave out the Crusades, colonialism, the forcible establishment of Israel, feeding arms to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq War, the establishment of puppet regimes in Iran and Iraq. I'm sure there are many other examples, but covering those should give you some insight into their hatred for the US, assuming you can read with a mind open enough to look at it from their POV .
Specifically read about the US policy and actions regarding the proxy war the CIA conducted against the Red Army in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Make sure you don't skip the part about the US canceling all foreign aid to our "friends" that helped the US deal a defeat to the Red Army as part of the Cold War. Some friends the US turned out to be. |
So they were justified in crashing jetliners into the WTC? |
No.
But their anger wasn't groundless. |
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04/28/2007 11:38:34 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building. |
What did we do to them to earn the jetliners flying into the towers on 9/11? |
Plenty.
Read your history book. Don't leave out the Crusades, colonialism, the forcible establishment of Israel, feeding arms to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq War, the establishment of puppet regimes in Iran and Iraq. I'm sure there are many other examples, but covering those should give you some insight into their hatred for the US, assuming you can read with a mind open enough to look at it from their POV .
Specifically read about the US policy and actions regarding the proxy war the CIA conducted against the Red Army in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Make sure you don't skip the part about the US canceling all foreign aid to our "friends" that helped the US deal a defeat to the Red Army as part of the Cold War. Some friends the US turned out to be. |
So they were justified in crashing jetliners into the WTC? |
No.
But their anger wasn't groundless. |
You say their anger wasn't groundless when they killed innocent civilians but when photodude lumps innocent Muslims with extremists you label him as ignorant?
I don't agree with photodude's comments but based solely on your beliefs that you posted above, how can you say that his anger isn't groundless when compared to theirs?
bliss |
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04/28/2007 12:18:12 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building. |
What did we do to them to earn the jetliners flying into the towers on 9/11? |
Plenty.
Read your history book. Don't leave out the Crusades, colonialism, the forcible establishment of Israel, feeding arms to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq War, the establishment of puppet regimes in Iran and Iraq. I'm sure there are many other examples, but covering those should give you some insight into their hatred for the US, assuming you can read with a mind open enough to look at it from their POV .
Specifically read about the US policy and actions regarding the proxy war the CIA conducted against the Red Army in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Make sure you don't skip the part about the US canceling all foreign aid to our "friends" that helped the US deal a defeat to the Red Army as part of the Cold War. Some friends the US turned out to be. |
So they were justified in crashing jetliners into the WTC? |
No.
But their anger wasn't groundless. |
You say their anger wasn't groundless when they killed innocent civilians but when photodude lumps innocent Muslims with extremists you label him as ignorant?
I don't agree with photodude's comments but based solely on your beliefs that you posted above, how can you say that his anger isn't groundless when compared to theirs?
bliss |
The anger on both sides is justified.
I never said photodude's anger wasn't justified.
The intentional killing of innocents on either side is not.
Being angry is one thing, acting rashly out of anger is another thing entirely. |
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04/28/2007 12:33:55 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building. |
What did we do to them to earn the jetliners flying into the towers on 9/11? |
Plenty.
Read your history book. Don't leave out the Crusades, colonialism, the forcible establishment of Israel, feeding arms to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq War, the establishment of puppet regimes in Iran and Iraq. I'm sure there are many other examples, but covering those should give you some insight into their hatred for the US, assuming you can read with a mind open enough to look at it from their POV .
Specifically read about the US policy and actions regarding the proxy war the CIA conducted against the Red Army in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Make sure you don't skip the part about the US canceling all foreign aid to our "friends" that helped the US deal a defeat to the Red Army as part of the Cold War. Some friends the US turned out to be. |
So they were justified in crashing jetliners into the WTC? |
No.
But their anger wasn't groundless. |
You say their anger wasn't groundless when they killed innocent civilians but when photodude lumps innocent Muslims with extremists you label him as ignorant?
I don't agree with photodude's comments but based solely on your beliefs that you posted above, how can you say that his anger isn't groundless when compared to theirs?
bliss |
The anger on both sides is justified.
I never said photodude's anger wasn't justified.
The intentional killing of innocents on either side is not.
Being angry is one thing, acting rashly out of anger is another thing entirely. |
I dunno. I guess we have different views on what we would call "one of, if not the most, ignorant statements I have ever seen." I think my one of, if not the most, ignorant statements I have ever seen would be one of these:
"The pieces of the bodies of infidels were flying like dust particles. If you would have seen it with your own eyes, you would have been very pleased, and your heart would have been filled with joy." -- Osama bin Laden's comments on the 17 sailors that died from the Cole bombings.
"For the American forces to expect anything from me personally reflects a very narrow perception. Thousands of millions of Muslims are angry. The Americans should expect reactions from the Muslim world that are proportionate to the injustice they inflict." bin Laden to Time Magazine Dec 1998
"If the American government is serious about avoiding explosions inside the U.S., then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims." Osama bin Laden CNN interview 1997
See, when bin Laden takes it upon himself to speak for the entire Muslim nation I find that to be one of, if not the most, ignorant statements I have ever seen. And to be perfectly honest, as silly as they are, I find photodude's comments to not even be near the same level of ignorance. Do you?
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04/28/2007 12:48:25 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by photodude:
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If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building.
And who are you retaliating against? Random innocents? Or do you condemn all Muslims equally? Maybe just Muslims from the Middle East? [/quote]
In WW2 not all Germans were Nazi's but most supported the Nazi efforts
In WW2 most Japanese supported Imperialism.
I won't say that every single Islamic is a terrorist but mainstream Islam supports the terrorists and what they do. We are considered infidels.
We can not afford to be surgical. They are all in the club, and the club must change its thinking and philosphy or perish. [/quote]
I think this line of thinking will only lead to many many more Americans dying...and innocent people abroad.
Do you have proof that mainstream muslims are supporting terrorism? I recently listened to an extensive program on the CBC, in which mainstream Muslims stood up again and again denouncing the violence.
Some Americans have gone on killing sprees...does that make every American a member of the club? Of course not. Some Christians have committed acts of violence in the name of Christianity..does that make every Christian guilty of committing these crimes..of course not.
I don't think you can afford not to be "surgical".
Message edited by author 2007-04-28 12:49:04. |
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04/28/2007 12:51:33 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If that works for you, it's OK until they fly a jetliner into your office building. |
What did we do to them to earn the jetliners flying into the towers on 9/11? |
Plenty.
Read your history book. Don't leave out the Crusades, colonialism, the forcible establishment of Israel, feeding arms to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq War, the establishment of puppet regimes in Iran and Iraq. I'm sure there are many other examples, but covering those should give you some insight into their hatred for the US, assuming you can read with a mind open enough to look at it from their POV .
Specifically read about the US policy and actions regarding the proxy war the CIA conducted against the Red Army in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Make sure you don't skip the part about the US canceling all foreign aid to our "friends" that helped the US deal a defeat to the Red Army as part of the Cold War. Some friends the US turned out to be. |
So they were justified in crashing jetliners into the WTC? |
No.
But their anger wasn't groundless. |
You say their anger wasn't groundless when they killed innocent civilians but when photodude lumps innocent Muslims with extremists you label him as ignorant?
I don't agree with photodude's comments but based solely on your beliefs that you posted above, how can you say that his anger isn't groundless when compared to theirs?
bliss |
The anger on both sides is justified.
I never said photodude's anger wasn't justified.
The intentional killing of innocents on either side is not.
Being angry is one thing, acting rashly out of anger is another thing entirely. |
I dunno. I guess we have different views on what we would call "one of, if not the most, ignorant statements I have ever seen." I think my one of, if not the most, ignorant statements I have ever seen would be one of these:
"The pieces of the bodies of infidels were flying like dust particles. If you would have seen it with your own eyes, you would have been very pleased, and your heart would have been filled with joy." -- Osama bin Laden's comments on the 17 sailors that died from the Cole bombings.
"For the American forces to expect anything from me personally reflects a very narrow perception. Thousands of millions of Muslims are angry. The Americans should expect reactions from the Muslim world that are proportionate to the injustice they inflict." bin Laden to Time Magazine Dec 1998
"If the American government is serious about avoiding explosions inside the U.S., then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims." Osama bin Laden CNN interview 1997
See, when bin Laden takes it upon himself to speak for the entire Muslim nation I find that to be one of, if not the most, ignorant statements I have ever seen. And to be perfectly honest, as silly as they are, I find photodude's comments to not even be near the same level of ignorance. Do you? |
First, Osama does not speak for all Muslims. Indeed, his narrow view of Islam condemns many Muslims as well. Just like photodud certainly doesn't speak for all non-Muslims.
I find any statement that advocates what can only be classified as a slaughter of innocents ignorant. If I had to rank the two, I would say that both photodude and Osama's statements are about equivalent in ignorance. |
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04/28/2007 01:05:12 PM · #45 |
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04/28/2007 01:16:10 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by bucket:
[i]Originally posted by photodude:
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I recently listened to an extensive program on the CBC, in which mainstream Muslims stood up again and again denouncing the violence.
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Islamics speaking out against terrorism is about as common as Germans speaking out against concentration camps during WW2.
Most Islamics clearly are not personally going to join suicide missions, but it is clear that those activities are supported and tolerated. |
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04/28/2007 01:31:55 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by photodude:
Originally posted by bucket:
[i]Originally posted by photodude:
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I recently listened to an extensive program on the CBC, in which mainstream Muslims stood up again and again denouncing the violence.
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Islamics speaking out against terrorism is about as common as Germans speaking out against concentration camps during WW2.
Most Islamics clearly are not personally going to join suicide missions, but it is clear that those activities are supported and tolerated. |
I am not sure where you are getting your information from...it is not clear to me. |
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04/28/2007 01:32:27 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Not sure how tongue in cheek this is, but at the very least, I'm sure you recognize how absurd a notion it is. If it's something you're serious about, it's patently offensive and causes little wonder that Americans with such views are reviled the world over. Perhaps you'd like to chair the committee to select the victims. Make sure it's a nice little out of the way spot full of women and children, as Lidice was, for example. |
Why "Americans" would be reviled the world over for someone using their rights to free speech does leave me with a lot to wonder. The world would be FAR better if we all quit exaggerating every single thing. Photodude said what he said to which you can strongly disagree but there's little reason (well I can think of a couple) to point out he's an American. Assuming of course he is.
Message edited by author 2007-04-28 13:35:34.
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04/28/2007 01:49:45 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by photodude:
Originally posted by bucket:
[i]Originally posted by photodude:
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I recently listened to an extensive program on the CBC, in which mainstream Muslims stood up again and again denouncing the violence.
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Islamics speaking out against terrorism is about as common as Germans speaking out against concentration camps during WW2.
Most Islamics clearly are not personally going to join suicide missions, but it is clear that those activities are supported and tolerated. |
Clear?? I'm not sure what kind of goggles you're wearing to make that seem clear, but you need a new prescription. |
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04/28/2007 01:54:02 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
First, Osama does not speak for all Muslims. Indeed, his narrow view of Islam condemns many Muslims as well. Just like photodud certainly doesn't speak for all non-Muslims.
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I guess I just don't understand how there is no difference in ignorance when the fact is that one of the men in question is actually responsible for the murders of thousands of innocents.
By this way of thinking, when a member of a hate group kills an innocent African American man there is no difference in ignorance to a guy who used the "n" word last week. I'll bet if the dead guy could talk he'd tell you that he believes that there is a huge difference in the ignorance between the two. |
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