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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> Sharpening - Before or after RAW conversion??
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 04/25/2007 08:08:32 AM · #1
I photograph in RAW as standard and then usually sharpen and adjust colour in DPP prior to conversion to jpeg. After converting to jpeg, I make final adjustments in Elements and save for web. My question is, does it make any difference whether you sharpen the RAW image or the jpeg image as it seems to me that I lose some of the sharpness if I do this step on the RAW image. My imagination? Or not. Comments would be appreciated.
 04/25/2007 08:20:35 AM · #2
I prefer that sharpening be the last thing I do.

All of my "proofs" get posted as unedited files, shot in raw, converted using Adobe Lightroom. Since they will go on display immediately, without the benefit of being photoshop'd, (yes it is a verb), I let LR do the sharpening.

For pictures that I plan to print large (anything larger than 4x6), I'll turn the sharpening way down, re-export out of LR, then do any touch-up work in PS and save the real sharpening step for last.
04/25/2007 08:28:38 AM · #3
I think this depends on the image.

With some I will turn up the sharpening in Lightroom and then apply a highpass filter in PS just before printing.

Remember, different sharpening is needed for different intended output.
 04/25/2007 08:34:49 AM · #4
I shoot with sharpening set to off.
And it is the very last step I take in postprocessing.
 04/25/2007 08:35:26 AM · #5
Thank you cpanaioti and dwterry for your comments. They make me realise I still have a lot to learn with regards to processing of my images. My goal this week : to learn to sharpen to perfection!! My goal next week??? Who knows!

Edited to include thanks to azrifel (I'm a slow typer!)

Message edited by author 2007-04-25 08:36:47.
 04/25/2007 10:17:55 AM · #6
Originally posted by Trinity_12_12:
Thank you cpanaioti and dwterry for your comments. They make me realise I still have a lot to learn with regards to processing of my images. My goal this week : to learn to sharpen to perfection!! My goal next week??? Who knows!


I think I'm still working on that first goal! :-)

As was already mentioned, every image is different. I have certain steps that I follow "most of the time", but then I often run into an image that just doesn't quite fit the mold.
04/25/2007 10:22:35 AM · #7
Most of the time I do my initial rough colour edit in DPP save to 16bit Tif, open in photoshop (LOVE the new CS3 BTW) fine tune the colours then USM as the final edit and save to 8bit jpg after.

-dave
 04/25/2007 11:19:30 AM · #8
Get a 5D, many times in full size prints and almost always on 72 dpi DPC challenge entries is need little or no sharpening. With the 20D it actually took quite a bit but with the 5D after doing the other processing steps such as levels, contrast especially there is little need to sharpen. When I do sharpen it is always at the end after last resize and especially don't sharpen before removing any unwanted noise.
 04/25/2007 11:20:40 AM · #9
Originally posted by Trinity_12_12:
... My goal this week : to learn to sharpen to perfection!! My goal next week??? Who knows!

Accomplish that goal and I'd like some tutoring. :)

In post processing circles there is a lot of discussion about when and how to sharpen an image. That topic could fill books. But in general it is recommended not to apply sharpening in-camera and to make sharpening the last step in post processing. Here are some reasons:

1-Your photo editor will usually do a better job sharpening than your camera.

2-Sharpening is affected by post processing, particularly lighting and contrast adjustments, therefore it makes sense to wait until the end.

3-Sharpening is strongly output dependent. The same image will require different levels of sharpening depending on how it is output. A web graphic requires much less sharpening than a large print. This is another reason to wait until the end.

There is discussion, however, about pre-processing sharpening. If your image is exceptionally soft focused out of the camera then applying mild sharpening in DPP up front before other post processing is also perfectly acceptable.

04/25/2007 11:27:53 AM · #10
Originally posted by stdavidson:
[...] in general it is recommended not to apply sharpening in-camera [...]

so for all you cannon folks... what setting do you use on your camera? on the 30D, there is a control for internal sharpening level (either 0-7 or 1-7). the "standard" mode has sharpening set to 3, i think landscape has it set to 4, and portrait to 2. i usually (always, actually) shoot in standard mode.

secondly, the default raw conversion in aperture does some sharpening. do people turn this off?
 04/25/2007 11:39:04 AM · #11
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
[...] in general it is recommended not to apply sharpening in-camera [...]

so for all you cannon folks... what setting do you use on your camera? on the 30D, there is a control for internal sharpening level (either 0-7 or 1-7). the "standard" mode has sharpening set to 3, i think landscape has it set to 4, and portrait to 2. i usually (always, actually) shoot in standard mode.

secondly, the default raw conversion in aperture does some sharpening. do people turn this off?


Since the RAW image is straight off the sensor, I doubt that the in camera setting has any affect. When shooting RAW this is probably handled by the RAW processing software. (somebody may want to confirm)

As to aperture, it does some sharpening but I cannot tell what is done for presentation on my monitor and what is done for print output. In fact, I'm still using DPP for my work while I play try to get a handle of what aperature is doing.
 04/25/2007 11:44:55 AM · #12
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
Since the RAW image is straight off the sensor, I doubt that the in camera setting has any affect. When shooting RAW this is probably handled by the RAW processing software. (somebody may want to confirm)

oh, yeah... good point... those levels probably only factor into the jpg portion of the raw+jpg
 04/25/2007 11:59:43 AM · #13
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
[...] in general it is recommended not to apply sharpening in-camera [...]

so for all you cannon folks... what setting do you use on your camera? on the 30D, there is a control for internal sharpening level (either 0-7 or 1-7). the "standard" mode has sharpening set to 3, i think landscape has it set to 4, and portrait to 2. i usually (always, actually) shoot in standard mode.

secondly, the default raw conversion in aperture does some sharpening. do people turn this off?


Since the RAW image is straight off the sensor, I doubt that the in camera setting has any affect. When shooting RAW this is probably handled by the RAW processing software. (somebody may want to confirm)

Good points by both of you.

I don't believe the Canon 10D has any in-camera sharpening applied at all. If it does it cannot be adjusted with a setting. My old Sony F717 had in-camera sharpening but I always had it turned off. My recommendation would be to turn off sharpening in the 30D unless the automatic setting you chose does not allow that. I always shoot manual so never really thought about the effects of automatic settings. :)

RAW applies no settings. Its not even a real picture, just the recorded data off the sensor. Your RAW converter turns it into a picture with proprietary converters and camera settings are applied at that time.

I use ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) for conversion and for the 10D it has a sharpen setting that can be viewed and recorded with the conversion or viewed but not recorded. I normally have it set to view but not record.
04/25/2007 12:01:57 PM · #14
I have my 30D (or DPP) set at 4 or 5 for sharpening from RAW to JPG. FOr prints, I leave it at that (i shoot mostly people so too sharp is not a good thing).
For web they look much better with a bit of USM...then you have to decide how much of what...

Canon itself recomends a USM upon first opening in PS of 300% .3 and 0 - this is to counteract the softening of the AA filter in the camera. I suspect this figure is a starting point as a 8 10 and 12mp sensor is going to have a different AA filter to pixel density ratio so the softening will vary by camera.

I've done that, then edit, resize for web and run the same USM and it looks good.
The new DPP (v 3) is different - i notice it in JPG's shot at high ISO (800+) opened at 100% in PS. THey seem to print fine, and viewing at 50% they look fine (BTW, judge print sharpening by viewing at 50% in PS).

Lately since i have the in-camera sharpening cranked up (to reduce a PP step and save time) for web I've been using something like 70%, .8 and 3.
Gives me something like this...

04/25/2007 01:19:04 PM · #15
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
Since the RAW image is straight off the sensor, I doubt that the in camera setting has any affect. When shooting RAW this is probably handled by the RAW processing software. (somebody may want to confirm)


On the Nikons, the sharpening setting in the menu applies to both jpeg and raw. When I open the file in Nikon Capture it will also apply the setting from the camera, when I open with Adobe Camera RAW it looks like the same amount of sharpening as the jpeg, same thing with CaptureOne and RawShooter. Soft in the menu is soft in the output, NEF and Jpeg.


04/25/2007 01:36:51 PM · #16
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

The new DPP (v 3)

Wow... I'm behind! I'm glad you pointed this out.
 04/25/2007 01:46:10 PM · #17
You also can't do selective sharpening via masks in RAW, correct?
 04/25/2007 02:09:43 PM · #18
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
Since the RAW image is straight off the sensor, I doubt that the in camera setting has any affect. When shooting RAW this is probably handled by the RAW processing software. (somebody may want to confirm)


On the Nikons, the sharpening setting in the menu applies to both jpeg and raw. When I open the file in Nikon Capture it will also apply the setting from the camera, when I open with Adobe Camera RAW it looks like the same amount of sharpening as the jpeg, same thing with CaptureOne and RawShooter. Soft in the menu is soft in the output, NEF and Jpeg.


I imagine that this is just one of the setting parameters that are passed to the RAW converter, just like white balance for instance, rather than any sharpening applied to the file directly. As the RAW file is, itself, not a viewable image necessarily, I imagine that sharpening could not be applied directly.
 04/25/2007 02:14:02 PM · #19
Originally posted by Mr_Pants:
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
Since the RAW image is straight off the sensor, I doubt that the in camera setting has any affect. When shooting RAW this is probably handled by the RAW processing software. (somebody may want to confirm)


On the Nikons, the sharpening setting in the menu applies to both jpeg and raw. When I open the file in Nikon Capture it will also apply the setting from the camera, when I open with Adobe Camera RAW it looks like the same amount of sharpening as the jpeg, same thing with CaptureOne and RawShooter. Soft in the menu is soft in the output, NEF and Jpeg.


I imagine that this is just one of the setting parameters that are passed to the RAW converter, just like white balance for instance, rather than any sharpening applied to the file directly. As the RAW file is, itself, not a viewable image necessarily, I imagine that sharpening could not be applied directly.


Yes, that's right.
 04/25/2007 02:20:15 PM · #20
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

The new DPP (v 3)

Wow... I'm behind! I'm glad you pointed this out.

I am looking for the download for the 3.0 version and all I can seem to find is the european version in spanish. Anyone know of a link to download an English version?

edit - NM - I found it

Message edited by author 2007-04-25 14:38:59.
 04/25/2007 02:37:30 PM · #21
Originally posted by rswank:
You also can't do selective sharpening via masks in RAW, correct?

Is this possible in any RAW converter?

ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) applies changes to the entire image, like basic editing, and does not apply any changes selectively or allow masking.
 04/25/2007 02:42:04 PM · #22
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by rswank:
You also can't do selective sharpening via masks in RAW, correct?

Is this possible in any RAW converter?

ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) applies changes to the entire image, like basic editing, and does not apply any changes selectively or allow masking.


Nikon Capture NX can selectively apply tonal adjustments, but I don't recall if it can selectively apply sharpening. An interesting question... not one I can answer, however. I uninstalled NX since my trial ran out; I only had it installed to test certain aspects of legality for challenges.
 04/25/2007 03:35:47 PM · #23
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by rswank:
You also can't do selective sharpening via masks in RAW, correct?

Is this possible in any RAW converter?

ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) applies changes to the entire image, like basic editing, and does not apply any changes selectively or allow masking.


Nikon Capture NX can selectively apply tonal adjustments, but I don't recall if it can selectively apply sharpening. An interesting question... not one I can answer, however. I uninstalled NX since my trial ran out; I only had it installed to test certain aspects of legality for challenges.


It cannot apply sharpening on a selection made with a color control point (basically a mask) and there is no sharpening control point.
I think it is possible to make manual selections and work with that, altough I cannot get it to work properly.
It can apply sharpening (USM) on a layer (actually by default) and you can alter the options of that layer (opacity and blending mode, like overlay, screen, multiply wich has very strong effects).


04/25/2007 04:17:39 PM · #24
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by rswank:
You also can't do selective sharpening via masks in RAW, correct?

Is this possible in any RAW converter?


Nikon Capture NX can selectively apply tonal adjustments, but I don't recall if it can selectively apply sharpening. ...


It cannot apply sharpening on a selection made with a color control point (basically a mask) and there is no sharpening control point.
I think it is possible to make manual selections and work with that, altough I cannot get it to work properly.
It can apply sharpening (USM) on a layer (actually by default) and you can alter the options of that layer (opacity and blending mode, like overlay, screen, multiply wich has very strong effects).

Does Nikon Capture NX support the generation of layers complete with opacity and blending modes as part of the RAW converter?

Hmmmmm, I'd assume it was OK to do any of that for basic challenges as long you only used "Normal" blending modes and made only global changes. Never knew RAW converters could do multiple layers. ACR treats the conversion like one giant layer whose data is stored in a tiny file stored separate from the original image.

Message edited by author 2007-04-25 16:18:28.
 04/25/2007 06:33:53 PM · #25
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Does Nikon Capture NX support the generation of layers complete with opacity and blending modes as part of the RAW converter?


Yes. You start with Base Adjustments, those work like a normal raw converter.
But you can also choose or add to that as manny new steps as you want, where you have a lot of tools available (many of the base adjustments too again), all of which are made on a kind of layers, each with their own blending and opacity modes.
Also each color control point that I add, those are a kind of masks, can be controlled as a layer with their own blending and opacity modes.
The tools of NX are very strong, but you need a lot of time to learn how to use them.

Only works for Nikon Raw files, tiffs and jpegs.

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