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04/18/2007 07:12:32 PM · #1 |
| Debate the politics here and leave the other thread out of it. |
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04/18/2007 07:16:51 PM · #2 |
Im moving my odd post from there to hear.
Thought this was interesting. Note the hearing protection but she is still wearing heels!
I see they teach kids gun control these days.
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04/18/2007 08:25:27 PM · #3 |
Damn right.
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I have enough guns to keep myself and my family protected. I'll get a revolver also so that my wife can use it to defend herself when I'm not home because cocking the trigger back is much easier than racking the slide on my guns.
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Hypothetical situation:
Everyone has a friend or a loved one, a son, daughter, brother, sister, mother, father, aunt, uncle, niece, nephew that they care about a whole lot. Let's say that your loved one was in a classroom with 30 other people. A madman breaks into the classroom, opens fire on 3 people randomly and stops to dump his magazine and pop in a new one.
Would you rather guns be outlawed...or would you rather have a gun-carrying individual in the classroom pull out his .40 caliber and put two bullets into the bad guy's chest before he can put his fully loaded magazine in his gun and start firing again?
I think we all know the answer...so why are you against responsible, sane, law-abiding citizens from owning and keeping firearms?
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Common misconceptions that I read in the other thread:
Guns in a self-defense situation are NOT for killing people: Guns in a self-defense situation are meant for stopping an attacker. You are to shoot the attacker for the sole purpose of stopping him from killing or inflicting serious bodily harm on yourself or other innocent people...if he dies in the process, then he dies in the process, but that is NOT the intent.
If guns were outlawed, there would be no guns: There are more than enough guns on the streets now to supply criminals for a VERY long time. And there are NOT enough police officers to protect every single person all the time. There is enough ammunition out there and all you need is some gun powder to reload those bullets...the bad guys will ALWAYS have guns.
If everyone had a gun, more people would die: I can't argue that...it's possible that for a little while more people would die...but also, more people would be a lot more polite. I carry my gun on my side just about everywhere I go. No one knows I have my gun on me and it's none of their business. No one will know I have my gun on me unless my life is in danger of being ended by a bad guy.
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I dunno...I could keep going, but I'm done with it. I'm not going to try and talk a bunch of anti-gun folks into thinking guns are OK. The fact of the matter is that guns are OK. More people than you think are carrying a gun. When you go to a store, you don't think about these things...but those of us that are into guns can spot them. Whether it's by the way they walk or the way they bend over, or the way their grip prints slightly on the small of their back...I can assure you armed, responsible citizens are out there and you come into contact with them every single day and you'd never know it until it was almost too late.
People keep bringing up these statistics about how the US is so violent...you are right, I agree wholeheartedly. The US can be a violent place. Maybe other countries don't properly record or report their data as accurately as the US does, I have no idea...but in either event, we do not have a gun problem in the US, we have a people problem.
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04/18/2007 08:33:38 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by ...:
Last year Virginia legislators considered a bill that would have overridden policies at public universities that prohibit students and faculty members with concealed handgun permits from bringing their weapons onto campus. After the bill died in committee, The Roanoke Times reported, Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker welcomed its defeat, saying, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
Maybe Hincker was right. But as Monday's horrifying mass murder at Virginia Tech vividly demonstrated, there is a difference between feeling safe and being safe. The university's gun ban not only did nothing to protect people at the school; it left them defenseless as a cold-blooded gunman methodically killed 32 of them over the course of two and a half hours.
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Message edited by author 2007-04-18 20:34:17.
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04/18/2007 08:41:43 PM · #5 |
Man as I sit here, I watch the TV and see the police officers outside getting into their 'positions' as you hear shots in the background which is the students and professors in the buildings being slaughtered. These police officers are walking around, holding their guns, hiding behind trees, getting into teams for what seems like 30 minutes...
Yeah, they're doing what they're supposed to do...and what they're supposed to do is NOT run in and shoot this guy. It's sad, but that's not their job. We have the responsibility to protect ourselves. If we're in a building and a mad gunman is going insane slaughtering innocent people, the police aren't just going to run in and shoot him. They'll wait until he's done shooting us all then hope the gunman comes out.
It's unacceptable to think that we need no protection or that the police will protect us. Yes, if it's convenient for the police to protect us, they'll do all they can...but obviously when it comes time to risk their own life by facing a mad gunman, they'd clearly rather just wait him out.
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Anyway, I'm getting all worked up here because I can't believe that there are people that think we need to ban guns over this matter. If anything, America needs more gun awareness and more availability to information on handguns and more information on responsible handgun ownership...and while you're at it, throw in a nice learning lesson on what the police are there to do and what they're not there to do.
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edit:
Oh yeah, one more point I wanted to make. Just because someone owns a handgun doesn't mean they're going to run out and start killing a bunch of people. It takes a sick, sick individual to do something like this...and has been mentioned, if they're determined, it will happen regardless of what 'tool' is being used.
Message edited by author 2007-04-18 20:43:25.
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04/18/2007 09:00:56 PM · #6 |
Very well stated Mr. Deapee. It is a matter of personal responsibility.
By the way, this is not the largest mass-murder case in the US. There was a situation near Waco Texas that Ms. Janet Reno signed off on that killed far more innocents than this.
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04/18/2007 09:18:46 PM · #7 |
| I said all I think I need to say over in the other thread... I just wanted to shout out an AMEN to brotha deapee. |
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04/18/2007 09:57:32 PM · #8 |
| while i like the idea of gun control, i gotta admit deapee has got a good point there - that if the bad guys are going to get get their hands on firearms anyway, i'd rather that i have one myself too for protection! we do sometimes forget that the law only stops the law-abiding, not the out-laws. |
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04/18/2007 11:15:53 PM · #9 |
Great idea Deapee has there... and if every single american owns a gun you can get rid of all your police officers, lawyers, judges and the rest of the people involved in the criminal justice system and save yourself a truckload of money.
You don't need them anyways right... they don't offer any protection and actually are only a thorn in the side of law abiding citizens.
Yep... I say go for it... You'll all be safer and richer too boot. :O)
Ray |
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04/18/2007 11:21:46 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Great idea Deapee has there... and if every single american owns a gun you can get rid of all your police officers, lawyers, judges and the rest of the people involved in the criminal justice system and save yourself a truckload of money.
You don't need them anyways right... they don't offer any protection and actually are only a thorn in the side of law abiding citizens. |
it takes some maturity to differentiate between agreeing to something, and being extreme about it. |
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04/18/2007 11:40:26 PM · #11 |
| Save a life. Ban universities. |
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04/18/2007 11:43:25 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Great idea Deapee has there... and if every single american owns a gun you can get rid of all your police officers, lawyers, judges and the rest of the people involved in the criminal justice system and save yourself a truckload of money.
You don't need them anyways right... they don't offer any protection and actually are only a thorn in the side of law abiding citizens.
Yep... I say go for it... You'll all be safer and richer too boot. :O)
Ray |
Do yourself a favor then Ray, and worry about your country. Thanks.
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04/18/2007 11:45:32 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Great idea Deapee has there... and if every single american owns a gun you can get rid of all your police officers, lawyers, judges and the rest of the people involved in the criminal justice system and save yourself a truckload of money.
You don't need them anyways right... they don't offer any protection and actually are only a thorn in the side of law abiding citizens. |
it takes some maturity to differentiate between agreeing to something, and being extreme about it. |
Absolutely right... and somehow the voice of reason seems lost in the current debate.
Ray |
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04/18/2007 11:59:31 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Do yourself a favor then Ray, and worry about your country. Thanks. |
What... I'm agreeing with you. One would think you would be happy about that.
Ray |
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04/19/2007 12:12:24 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
What... I'm agreeing with you. One would think you would be happy about that.
Ray |
Agreeing with a nice side of semi-extremist sarcasm.
Anyway, the fact of the matter remains as follows:
Americans have many rights. From the freedom of speech and the right to privacy to the right to own, keep, and bear arms and the right to the freedom of religion. The most important right that every single person, not only in the US, but in the entire world possesses is the right to survive. That is our human right, not one that is regulated or given to us by our government, but one that is given to us by our creator. No one can take away our right to survive.
I will always protect my right to survive...or I will die trying.
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04/19/2007 12:28:13 AM · #16 |
Here, copied from a political forum, one Canadian woman spills it all and tells her story after the events in VT...
Originally posted by Canadian Woman:
This is going to surprise some of you. Its a change of opinion for me. Canada has strict gun control laws. Always has. So much so that I've never even seen a gun up close.
Do strict gun control laws solve the problem?
Absolutely and positively not.
Our gun crime has been increasing by leaps and bounds in recent years. The problem isn't the legal gun owners. Its the lax laws which give a slap on the wrist to those who commit street or 'after hours' club crime using guns obtained illegally and allow them back on the street in many cases after less than two years behind bars. If that long.
There is not a night goes by any more in Toronto for example without at least one or more murders of someone using an illegal firearm. And the vast majority of the gun crimes are being committed using guns which were obtained illegally. The gang problem has become a major problem and many of them are rival gang murders of kids as young as 16.
At least in the US kids grow up learning a respect for guns and what they can do if used inappropriately. Here its the latest fad to shoot randomly killing not only those you may be after but innocent bystanders as well. The guns are considered a damn toy !
You are not even safe in your own home any more. If it isn't a home invasion its a case of a fight breaking out on the street nearby and stray bullets penetrating walls of nearby homes killing whoever may be unfortunate enough to be in the line of fire. Even a young girl in a shopping mall was killed in such a manner last year and a mother taking her daughter to a sandwich shoppe for a snack is a paraplegic because of one of those rampages.
The victim of the home invasion has no means of defending themselves or their loved ones. They are at the mercy of the thugs on a spree.
The guns are not the problem. The penalty for the misuse of a firearm is.
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Yeah....clearly, America should ban guns...that way we can all feel as unsafe as her.
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04/19/2007 12:38:59 AM · #17 |
From the other thread:
Originally posted by deapee:
The rest of the world is too damn concerned with what happens in the US. Worry about yourselves and we'll worry about ourselves. |
Tell that to the people of Iraq.
Originally posted by deapee:
We're the dominant force in the world but we're so concerned about being politically correct on a nationwide level that we're losing the respect that the other nations have for us. |
Or maybe we're losing the respect of the world because we invade other countries on false pretenses. Or because we preach equal opportunity and democratic freedoms while the current crop of 21st Century robber barons toss out the Constitution and drive the middle class into poverty and impoverish our children by saddling them with $30,000 of debt as soon as they're born. |
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04/19/2007 12:43:23 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
From the other thread:
Originally posted by deapee:
The rest of the world is too damn concerned with what happens in the US. Worry about yourselves and we'll worry about ourselves. |
Tell that to the people of Iraq.
Originally posted by deapee:
We're the dominant force in the world but we're so concerned about being politically correct on a nationwide level that we're losing the respect that the other nations have for us. |
Or maybe we're losing the respect of the world because we invade other countries on false pretenses. Or because we preach equal opportunity and democratic freedoms while the current crop of 21st Century robber barons toss out the Constitution and drive the middle class into poverty and impoverish our children by saddling them with $30,000 of debt as soon as they're born. |
Hey hotshot, I'm not saying everything's right, and you're trying to turn this into more than it is.
Personally, I think we went into Iraq with nothing but the best of intentions to help save helpless, defenseless people that were being shot, hanged, raped, and ravished in the middle of the streets with no protection from any form of government because it was their very own government that was doing it to their people. Sure, things got out of hand while we were there and now we're stuck because we can't just go wipe out a government and then just leave the people to fend for themselves and die with no knowledge of how to properly run a good, safe country.
And as far as corporations go, what the HELL does that have to do with what this thread is about? You, sir, are trying to stir the pot. From a member of the site council, I would expect more.
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04/19/2007 12:47:17 AM · #19 |
Oh...and contrary to what the media wants you to believe, I think the people of Iraq are happy that they are not being murdered in cold blood by their very own government. I think the men are happy that their wives are not being raped by government officials and police officers. I think the women are happy that they are not being raped and ravaged in the streets and that their husbands are not being shot and killed for trying to stand up for them.
If you listen to some of the people that go to Iraq, and not only the death tolls and things that the media reports, I think you would know the true story. Sure it sucks that people are dying over there, but it's for a good cause. Maybe a little out of control now and things went overboard, but as I mentioned, we went there with good intentions and when we do leave, Iraq will be a better place because of it.
That is not to say that I agree with the US being there. I personally think we have our own problems to worry about here. I think we should spend our money here before we spend billions of dollars a day over there. I think our troops are worth more than saving a bunch of people that aren't Americans...but guess what...that's the American way, and America is standing up for the innocent people that had no one to stand up for them. If you don't like it, you're more than welcome to start a thread about it.
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04/19/2007 01:01:52 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Here, copied from a political forum, one Canadian woman spills it all and tells her story after the events in VT...
Originally posted by Canadian Woman:
This is going to surprise some of you. Its a change of opinion for me. Canada has strict gun control laws. Always has. So much so that I've never even seen a gun up close.
Do strict gun control laws solve the problem?
Absolutely and positively not.
There is not a night goes by any more in Toronto for example without at least one or more murders of someone using an illegal firearm.
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Yeah....clearly, America should ban guns...that way we can all feel as unsafe as her. |
Unless I am very much mistaken, the total number of murders in Toronto for 2006 was something like 26... hardly the one a day this lady alluded to.
The story this lady told is just that, a story... and anecdotal discourse of life as she perceives it which may not necessarily be based on concrete evidence.
The gun control this person is referring to is that which deals with long barrel firearms such as shotguns and rifles and has nothing to do with handguns.
Lastly, there exists a monumental amount of difference between feeling unsafe and actually being unsafe.
I personally feel really safe in my environment, and to be honest have never experienced any qualms about visiting the USA, something which I do quite frequently.
I simply just don't share the view that everyone needs to carry a weapon, must less one that is concealed.
Ray
Message edited by author 2007-04-19 01:03:55. |
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04/19/2007 01:07:28 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Lastly, there exists a monumental amount of difference between feeling unsafe and actually being unsafe.
I personally feel really safe in my environment, and to be honest have never experienced any qualms about visiting the USA, something which I do quite frequently. |
Fine, then we agree on the fact that feeling unsafe and being unsafe are two different things. She feels unsafe -- she has no means of protection.
And if you feel safe in your environment, then that's fine. I don't think you should be forced to carry a handgun. I don't think you should be forced to own a handgun...and I don't think you should have the right to tell me I shouldn't allowed to carry a handgun...which you don't, but a good percentage of people think they do for some stupid reason.
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04/19/2007 01:09:34 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Personally, I think we went into Iraq with nothing but the best of intentions to help save helpless, defenseless people that were being shot, hanged, raped, and ravished in the middle of the streets with no protection from any form of government because it was their very own government that was doing it to their people. Sure, things got out of hand while we were there ... |
I believe you are seriously misinformed about conditions for Iraqi citizens prior to the invasion. Every poll of the Iraqi people I've heard of lately says they want the US out now by about an 80% to 20% margin ... |
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04/19/2007 01:13:38 AM · #23 |
Why does the NRA and its cohorts always phrase everything related to gun control as "taking away" everyone's guns?
The holy writ -- the Second Amendment -- says "Well regulated" right there at the very beginning.
I'm not saying you can't have a gun. I'm saying if you have one, I (my representatives in government, that is) should know about it, make sure you're qualified to use it, and hold you responsible for its use. Just like a car ... |
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04/19/2007 01:16:24 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The holy writ -- the Second Amendment -- says "Well regulated" right there at the very beginning.
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Im pretty sure in the context of the second amendment "well regulated" applies to the militia it speaks of, rather than individual gun ownership.
Edited for clarity.
Message edited by author 2007-04-19 01:20:24.
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04/19/2007 02:18:44 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by hsteg:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The holy writ -- the Second Amendment -- says "Well regulated" right there at the very beginning.
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Im pretty sure in the context of the second amendment "well regulated" applies to the militia it speaks of, rather than individual gun ownership.
Edited for clarity. |
Well go ahead and add that part -- so you can't have a gun unless you're in a well-regulated militia. That sounds like a plan.
I think the point is that the Founders were not against government regulation, as some people seem to imply. They were also not speaking of AK-47s or 50-round clips or rocket-propelled grenades either. I'm considerably less opposed to widespread gun ownership if you're talking about muzzle-loading flintlocks ... |
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