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04/17/2007 07:31:21 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Can't the argument be made that if guns were restricted and only criminals had them that more criminals would be killed by guns (due to such things as gang violence) than law abiding citizens (due to domestic violence or accident) and eventually we would have no more crime?
Long live gun control!
Personally I think the gun debate is so fraught with dogmatic, unreasonable thinking that the only avenue I have left is to make fun of everybody.
(That being said, I'd be perfectly happy to take my chances if handguns were outlawed.) |
Talk about unreasonable thinking. How do you figure that if we restrict guns, the criminals will only use them against each other?
Guns are banned on the campus of Virginia Tech. I figure the score there was 32-1...the law abiding citizens lose.
Oh, and read here about the armed citizen you probably have never heard of.
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04/17/2007 07:35:02 PM · #102 |
I think outlawing guns is pointless. It is just like Prostitution or Marijuana both Illegal with exception of a few places, But still very much exist in most all places even small town America. The fact that both were outlawed many many years ago and exist on a larger and stronger scale today tells me that outlawing guns is not the answer/solution to the problem.
Something has to be done though.
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04/17/2007 07:37:21 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
I think outlawing guns is pointless. It is just like Prostitution or Marijuana both Illegal with exception of a few places, But still very much exist in most all places even small town America. The fact that both were outlawed many many years ago and exist on a larger and stronger scale today tells me that outlawing guns is not the answer/solution to the problem.
Something has to be done though. |
Agree 100%.....The scary thing though, what CAN be done, what CAN people do to stop this shit.... |
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04/17/2007 07:45:46 PM · #104 |
I just got this email from a friend who is a Hokie mom. Put a little different perspective on things, at least it did for me. I've replaced the names with ****** simply for a little privacy. Anything in bold is what I've added for clarification.
Originally posted by a VT mom:
What a horrible time this has been for those of us with family members at Tech. I can only convey my heartfelt thanks to you for all your calls, prayers, messages and emails by getting this out to many of you at one time. Please forgive me for being a little less than personal, but I wanted to let as many of you in on our family's goings-on as possible.
I first heard the news about the shootings about ten yesterday morning. My mom called to say that the news reports were just showing up. I immediately started calling ******* and was unable to reach him. The dorm (West AJ) where the first shootings were being reported is the dorm Andrew lived in last year. He has several friends who still live there.
By then, we were calling other extended family members who also have kids on campus. We currently have 2 nieces (***** and ********) who are also Tech students. We quickly found out that ********* wasn't on campus, but that ***** was locked down in one of the buildings close to Norris Hall. A faculty member had grabbed her at a bus stop and they ran into a locker-type of room with several other students, got in the floor and stayed there for more than 2 and a half hours. She was pretty traumatized by the whole thing, of course, and decided to come home with her parents last night. She has returned to campus today to attend the services being held there. She's a senior and we hope these events are not the final acts of her senior year.
I finally got through to ****** about 35 minutes after the first news reports. By then, we were getting reports of the second set of shootings in an engineering building. ****** is in his second year of studies in mechanical engineering and we knew that his advisor has his office in Norris Hall. Needless to say, I was beyond the ability to be a reasonable person at that point. I was so relieved to hear his voice that I forgot for a few moments that there were a whole lot of other parents who were not able to find that comfort.
Shortly, **** called from Okinawa to check on his brother. CNN was being broadcast live in Japan and he knew about everything before even my sister, who lives in Murfreesboro, found out. He immediately called his brother and they talked for a long time. They got cut off, though, when all the lines crashed with the number of calls and messages trying to go through.
The numbers of dead and injured continued to rise as I began to think about all the other kids we know on campus. Those of you who know us well know that ***** family history and VA Tech are closely intertwined. ****** is the 11th ***** to attend Tech. **** (her husband0 and all 5 of his siblings went there and graduated with at least one degree from there. Two nieces have been on the homecoming courts. One niece was married there, in the War Memorial Chapel. (We also have 2 unit members on staff at Tech.)
We've had football season tickets since long before Tech was good. I remember going to Tech football games when we could walk around the stadium and choose where we wanted to sit. The kids have literally grown up on that campus, tailgating and visiting with family members all before, during and after games. We were even at the "Lightning Bowl" game where Frank Corso's car was hit by lightning after he dissed Tech. He then made the famous statement, "I don't know what a Hokie is, but God must be one."
So yesterday's attacks were very personal. Blessedly, everyone we know is physically okay. One of *******'s fraternity brothers is the kid (Zach) that you're seeing on CNN talking about barricading the door with tables as the shooter fired through the door. He cries when the reporter calls him a hero. Another acquaintance is the one who filmed the scene with his cell phone. I'm sure his mama wishes he'd had better sense than that, but again.....
We met ****** about halfway between Bristol and Tech last night to have supper with him. I was okay til I hugged him. I wasn't too pretty for a while after that. He's staying on campus tonight so he can go the service and he's coming home tomorrow for the rest of the week.
I feel a lot like I did in the days after 9/11. Violated. Vulnerable. Blindsided. Thrilled that my loved ones are safe. So sorry that others don't have that comfort.
Good things will come from this, I know. You have all been such a blessing to us through this. Your gestures, large and small are so appreciated. Our next door neighbor, Mike, even captured our wind-blown garbage cans and placed them in the garage for us, knowing we didn't have enough sense at the time to do it ourselves.
We'll never know the whys of this situation completely. Our minister summed it up nicely when he said, "The only certainty in this life is God's love." You have each been a human form of that love for us these last couple of days. Thank you. |
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04/17/2007 09:38:52 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by larryslights:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Can't the argument be made that if guns were restricted and only criminals had them that more criminals would be killed by guns (due to such things as gang violence) than law abiding citizens (due to domestic violence or accident) and eventually we would have no more crime?
Long live gun control!
Personally I think the gun debate is so fraught with dogmatic, unreasonable thinking that the only avenue I have left is to make fun of everybody.
(That being said, I'd be perfectly happy to take my chances if handguns were outlawed.) |
Talk about unreasonable thinking. How do you figure that if we restrict guns, the criminals will only use them against each other?
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Do you really think I'm serious?
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04/17/2007 10:21:25 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
[quote=larryslights] [quote=DrAchoo]
Do you really think I'm serious? |
If you weren't, than your sarcasm is surely not needed during such a horrible time.
Message edited by author 2007-04-17 22:21:59. |
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04/17/2007 10:26:17 PM · #107 |
Honestly, folks, what's the value in arguing for or against the gun lobby before anyone's even been buried? Even the president had the good sense to steer clear of the issue when NBC asked him about it directly. At least wait until the flags go back up to full staff before tearing into each other over political issues. Can we do that? Or would that just be far too respectful and appropriate for the internets?
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04/17/2007 10:35:43 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Honestly, folks, what's the value in arguing for or against the gun lobby before anyone's even been buried? |
Bingo.
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04/17/2007 11:14:02 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Honestly, folks, what's the value in arguing for or against the gun lobby before anyone's even been buried? |
Tell the anti-gun crowd this. Me, I'm all for letting it pass, but when people start talking about taking away our rights to keep firearms, I look at it as people trying to take away my right to protect myself and my family and loved ones.
Besides...no harm in discussing this. We're not being all politically correct. It's in no way disrespectful to the families of the victims or the victims involved in the shooting.
We're discussing serious issues here. The fact of the matter is this...the anti-gun crowd doesn't vote solely based on someone's stance on gun-control. But a VERY HIGH percentage of gun-owners (which is about 40% of all American households) vote based largely on gun-control issues. It was democratic suicide when they passed those gun bills however many years ago...and they're not going to do that again any time soon anyway.
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04/17/2007 11:30:23 PM · #110 |
I have a hard time listening to people use the bodies of murder victims as a platform to spew vitriolic political rhetoric before those victims have been mourned as they and their loved ones deserve. Show some class.
Message edited by author 2007-04-17 23:30:41.
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04/17/2007 11:42:05 PM · #111 |
The problem is that both sides of the gun control debate exploit these tragic incidents to spew their agenda. There is a time and a place for this converstaion and a day after something as tragic as this is not the time. You are pratically fighting over someones dead body for your own political gain IMO.
Message edited by author 2007-04-17 23:43:35.
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04/17/2007 11:44:36 PM · #112 |
so i just talked to a friend of mine who lives in virginia....
the shooter and two of his female friends went to his highschool and hes pretty upset. just remember him and everyone else.
btw... im not really sure if this is off topic cause i havent read much of the debates
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04/17/2007 11:48:41 PM · #113 |
Events like this bring the debate to the forefront because we all wonder, "would this have happened if things were different?" (either pro or con).
I wasn't even going to get into this, so I'll just back out. Pretty well all of my comments after the first one were attempted humor (not of the shootings, of course, but of the debate). The funny thing is that twice people couldn't see the obvious absurdism to my posts. |
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04/18/2007 12:06:06 AM · #114 |
i'll stay out of the gun control issue, however i think everyone can agree that beyond the guns there was something seriously wrong with this kid.
i'm really curious why this hasn't yet brought up a big debate about video-game violence. |
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04/18/2007 01:33:23 AM · #115 |
I am pro gun, but I see no reason why non-US citizens are allowed to buy guns in the US.
so he had no criminal record...we can't keep track of foreigners in this country as it is, so how can we even have a clue about this? Weren't there some terrorists in this country a few years back? I bet they had no criminal record - until the took down 4 planes.
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04/18/2007 03:01:23 AM · #116 |
"i would not be comfortable knowing that everyone was "packing" and ready to take the law into their own hands."
I think I'd actually be fairly comfortable if everyone was packing. Few would react foolishly. And those that did would be down before much harm could be done.
"Are you saying we should not have any gun laws so we can all carry guns like in teh wild west? If someone had a gun this would have ended early? Is that really your stance?"
Yes, if someone had a gun this would have been ended early. I am not necessarily for the old west. But hey, Switzerland every citizen has a gun in the house. In fact, they are required to....
"Why do people feel a need to own firearms to defend themselves? Is this a regular accurance? Do you need to shoot intruders and attackers on a regular basis?"
Because we are aware that no one else is going to be there to defend us. Do we need to do this on a regular basis. No. But it only takes once to lose my family. So I would rather pack a gun and blow away any intruder or attacker.
"This was tragic, but once this person made the decision to go forward there was no stopping"
Actually, such events are often stopped whenever another person is armed. Most people don't remember the L.A. riots and all the burnt stores. One of the most vivid memories I had was of a single store unlooted on a block. He was the only store owner who was armed. And the only one left with his livelihood.
"Trained soldiers have covered their heads and cowered at the first sign of incoming fire, what makes you think regular civilians would react much better?"
Because many have done so. Just a couple a years ago I read an article where a restaurant was being robbed. Two elderly individuals had been out target shooting. They actually subdued the perpetrator without causing serious harm and protected the restaurant.
"We all know college students are bastions of non-impulsive behavior. I'd certainly feel safer if everybody was packing heat at the kegger on Friday night."
Yes, yes...it's easy to take it to silly extremes. But having gone to public school I think there is clear justification for teachers and professors to have a concealed carrying piece.
"Frankly, I'd prefer this guy trying this with knives instead of guns. The "Guns are the same as knives" arguement is possibly the weakest point ever made in the gun debate."
Sure, but then it would have just been a propane tank easily rigged to be an explosive. Guess we should ban barbecue grills too.
But the real crux of the matter is that you are not going to stop criminals from getting guns. If I thought you could eliminate EVERY gun on the planet - I'd say "yes". But having known a runner for gun dealers in high school I discovered that you can pass any law removing guns from law-abiding citizens but you can't pass any law to remove them from criminals.
"Didn't the gun lobby take care of this in 2005? I don't remember if the bill which prevented people from suing gun manufacturers for negligence passed or not."
Why should we allow gun makers to be sued? Because people are over-emotional and irrational?
We don't allow automobile manufacturers and booze makers to be sued. And tons of people die from drunk drivers. I've known people who have been killed by drunk drivers. I don't know anyone killed by someone else using a gun.
. Another acquaintance is the one who filmed the scene with his cell phone. I'm sure his mama wishes he'd had better sense than that
That may have been a noble thing. Had the perpetrator escaped such video might have been all that would have existed to help point police officers on the right track. It may have been a prudent albeit dangerous thing to do.
"There is a time and a place for this converstaion and a day after something as tragic as this is not the time."
Ah, but these are the times that legislation is passed, foolish mistakes made, etc. So it needs to be spoken about. And we who feel that we need to protect our rights will speak out - because we know if we are silent during one of those times we will lose our rights.
And quite a few of us believe that losing those rights would be far more tragic and result in far more deaths and massacres. If we merely mourned....so be it.
"I am pro gun, but I see no reason why non-US citizens are allowed to buy guns in the US. "
Of this, I am in full agreement. Other than special residents or visitors who can show great reason for necessity. This is a right guaranteed to every citizen. But that does not automatically grant it to foriegners. Not that I would refuse any man or woman who had need of such. But I don't believe it should be open policy.
Sadly, political correctness has led us to a state where government agencies cannot even ask about whether someone is an illegal resident. I imagine if such is the case with the DMV that it's probably true with the gun control and many other things.
I do believe political correctness will kill more people than guns. *sigh*
That said...I think there is some justification for having some teachers or professors trained in the use of firearms. Carrying concealed. And having gone through some psych evaluations.
Furthermore, I wish we can this sit still and wait mentality. It only gets people killed. I mean, the airplanes on 911 were hijacked by men with box cutters. Um sorry, not intimidated. You come at me with your boxcutter and you'll get my 17" Toshiba notebook in your face several times. I know who would win.
Likewise, we are taught to be passive and wait. That's great for a hostage situation in which someone wants to barter. But most stuff today is insanity. Just passioned insanity. So you don't negotiate. Heck, people should be trained. Now, I admit there isn't much to defend yourself with in a school but there are ways. Give me 5 guys and we could have taken this guy out. How? Simple...such schools always have fire hoses. These are pretty hefty and powerful hoses. Aimed right they can knock a man down. Aimed half right and they still blind them with water. Have two men on the hose. Wait behind a corner. When he approaches...spray him as the others bum rush him. You have a guy on each arm and a couple of extras. He may get a couple but it ends there.
32 people are dead + 28 wounded. Had those same 32 people or even half that engaged the perpetrator a few would be dead but not all.
Japanese seem to understand this. An attempted hijacking of a Japanese plane resulted in every able bodied male beating the hijackers to death with their cell phones.
Now, I'm not saying I like the odds of a fire house versus a 9mm. But I'd take it over just being shot. And I'd take it over watching others die. Heck, give me that house and a fire axe and I'd make a good wager he'd have died with only a few to join him.
I guess I realized that sometimes the only choice you have is to fight. |
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04/18/2007 05:24:47 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
I guess I realized that sometimes the only choice you have is to fight. |
:::Applause::: |
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04/18/2007 06:07:31 AM · #118 |
Have only skimmed through this thread - no surprises. I'll just throw out a thought that occurred to me today after hearing some details about the perpetrator - he had been on anti depressants - made me think we should be discussing anti-depressant control rather than gun control.
Other than that, I pretty much agree with Saj on all points. |
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04/18/2007 07:03:07 AM · #119 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
.... a lot of very good points ... |
Well said... thank you for taking the time to write this post... I agree with all you said... My wife and I had an intruder in our house a few years ago, we had no gun in the house. He was larger than both of us combined and we don't know if he had a weapon.... we were home and asleep when he broke in... We woke up to go to church while he was still in the house... My wife walked in on him... She screamed and ran to the bedroom while I found any weapon I could and called 911... We waited patiently behind a locked door holding an iron and flashlight until the cops showed up to "clear the house"... I've never felt so out of control of a situation.... We ended up selling the house and moving to a "safer" neighborhood and abandoned our plans of helping improve a transitional neighborhood.... I now have a loaded gun under my bed... If that bastard tries it again, he will not leave the premises alive.... To all of you gun control advocates... CONTROL THAT!!!
Message edited by author 2007-04-18 07:03:38. |
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04/18/2007 07:38:10 AM · #120 |
Is this the price of living in the land of the free? Sleeping with a gun under your pillow? No thanks....
Nothing personal... |
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04/18/2007 07:55:35 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
I guess I realized that sometimes the only choice you have is to fight. |
I read this and to be honest I can't say that I agree with the majority of the views espoused by the Saj. Mind you, perhaps the fact that I live in a quiet rural area where we don't even lock the doors might have a bearing on my views.
I would hasten to point out that I am quite familiar with firearms and still own several, and would hazard tp guess that I am more familiar with the criminal element than the vast majority of the people in DPC having worked in law enforcement for 30 years.
Would I want to live in a society where all citizens carried a gun... perhaps if it were in the middle east, but other than that NO.
The sad fact about the comments made by the Saj is that they are speculative in nature, with no tangible evidence that anything said can be supported by empirical evidence. It might prove interesting to find out how many people are killed by family members using firearms during domestic disputes, and those instances where children were killed when playing with daddy's gun.
You might feel safer, but I can assure you that I wouldn't... and considering that I am a foreigner I would be at a monumental disadvantage whenever I visited your beautiful country... something that I do quite regularly.
Having everyone carry a concealed weapon is NOT the panacea you project it to be.
Ray |
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04/18/2007 08:22:00 AM · #122 |
It sickens me to the pit of my stomach, I cant believe people can defend gun laws when the 'previously law abiding citizen' in question, walked into a shop and LEGALLY bought a Glock and ammo for $571 and proceeded to KILL 32 people.
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04/18/2007 09:05:11 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by cheekymunky:
It sickens me to the pit of my stomach, I cant believe people can defend gun laws when the 'previously law abiding citizen' in question, walked into a shop and LEGALLY bought a Glock and ammo for $571 and proceeded to KILL 32 people. |
He ILLEGALLY carried his gun onto a place where guns are prohibited. He ILLEGALLY discharged his gun probably 100 times at innocent individuals. I defend the right to own, keep, and bear arms by law-abiding citizens.
Maybe we need to split the USA into a North and a South...or an East and a West. On your side, guns will be outlawed and only outlaws will have guns. On my side, everyone will own a gun, and everyone will carry that gun proudly...and everyone will be polite and respectful.
As has been mentioned...if he didn't do it with a gun, any determined individual would have done it with something else.
There is a reason that the 3 largest attacks I can remember in my lifetime (Columbine, 9/11, and VA TECH) happened -- They all occurred where people were not allowed to carry handguns to defend themselves. When you take away someone's right to own a gun, something as simple as a box-cutter becomes a tool that can inflict fear and death on hundreds if not thousands of people.
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Oh, and TheSaj...very well-put, perfectly spoken. I wish I had the calm to write in these situations as well as you do. TheSaj for president!
Message edited by author 2007-04-18 09:06:24.
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04/18/2007 09:07:44 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by hsolakidis:
Is this the price of living in the land of the free? Sleeping with a gun under your pillow? No thanks....
Nothing personal... |
What would you have me do??? Simply allow an intruder to do what he may with my wife and 2 year old son??? It's the land of the free that allows me to protect my family...
Let's see how YOU feel when a stranger has broken into YOUR house and you have NO way to defend yourself... What if HE has a gun??? Stricter gun laws would simply prevent ME (a law abiding citizen) from purchasing a gun... It's a proven point that it's easy to obtain guns illegally. If someone is willing to break and enter, vandalize, and rob someone, then I seriously doubt they will heed any gun laws we may pass.
Originally posted by cheekymunky:
It sickens me to the pit of my stomach, I cant believe people can defend gun laws when the 'previously law abiding citizen' in question, walked into a shop and LEGALLY bought a Glock and ammo for $571 and proceeded to KILL 32 people. |
OK, he purchased the gun legally. Don't you think that if a mentally unstable person wants to go on a killing rampage they will find SOME way to do it? The guns were purchased over 1 month ago... that's PREMEDITATION!!!! Tougher gun laws would not have prevented this!!! Granted, the headlines may have been different.. Perhaps something like this...
"Student massacres other students with guns purchased on the black market"
or...
"Suicide bomber walks into Virginia Tech classroom killing countless students"
The result of his purchasing the guns legally is that we know where he got them, that is all.
I would like to see how you would feel about guns if you were trapped in your own house with no way to properly defend yourself while some stranger does God only knows what!!! Maybe... just maybe... in that moment of vulnerability and sheer panic... you yourself might just want a gun!!!
ETA:
Originally posted by deapee:
Oh, and TheSaj...very well-put, perfectly spoken. I wish I had the calm to write in these situations as well as you do. TheSaj for president! |
I completely agree... I'm having a very difficult time maintaining my own composure on this matter.
Message edited by author 2007-04-18 09:09:28.
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04/18/2007 09:44:51 AM · #125 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Maybe we need to split the USA into a North and a South...or an East and a West. On your side, guns will be outlawed and only outlaws will have guns. On my side, everyone will own a gun, and everyone will carry that gun proudly...and everyone will be polite and respectful.
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I would bet my life on the fact that the side that owned guns, you would never hear of 20-30 people dying in one shooting again. If I had a choice of protecting my family from an intruder or letting him kill me and do whatever to my family, sorry but I choose to protect them with a gun. Two big men coming into my house against my 9mm won't fare very well. But myself vs. those two. There would be nothing I could do. And unfortunately these things happen. Sorry to hear about what happend to you Dowse.
Message edited by author 2007-04-18 09:45:34. |
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