I have a legal question - DPChallenge Forums

03/30/2007 09:57:29 AM · #1

ok, so as I'm trying to get this studio off of the ground I was thinking about doing a mailer. I was wondering, to save money on the shipping if I could drop off the mailers in or on the mailbox's myself. you know, like when dominoes drops off the cupons on the side of the mailbox, hooked on the little flag thing.

should I just play it safe and pay for the shipping?

Monique64

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

03/30/2007 10:03:57 AM · #2

In Australia you are allowed to do it yourself. You need to make sure that it cant fly away because the last thing you want is to get complaints about your flyer doing just that. It is work intensive however to do it yourself, but costs less. As an ex-postie I know that you will get a good coverage and very quickly if you pay for the professionals to do it. By post you also can get a private box delivery which you cant do. I'm not sure about other countries but sometimes you can request business delivery or residential only.

SandyP

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF 200mm f/2.8 USM

03/30/2007 10:04:52 AM · #3

Hmmmmm. Why don't you ask

Docurrie. He's an attorney and could maybe tell you right off the top of his head.

I know there are special rules about doing that, but I'm not sure what they are.

Good luck with your new studio!

NVPhoto

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

03/30/2007 10:11:17 AM · #4

you can drop them on the side, but if you open someone's mailbox you have broken the law.

There are companies who do direct mailing for you. I did it once for a marketing company I managed. It was kind of cool, I had a ton of options to filter who received my mailing. Some of the criteria were...,location, income, kids (yes or no), graduating HS class, etc...
I would write up the mailing and send it to the company and they would send the desired amount. It was pretty cheap too.

If thats not what you want to do, you could drop them yourself, but that is time consuming.

downtherabbithole

03/30/2007 06:29:56 PM · #5

Originally posted by SandyP:

Hmmmmm. Why don't you ask Docurrie. He's an attorney and could maybe tell you right off the top of his head.

I know there are special rules about doing that, but I'm not sure what they are.

Good luck with your new studio!

hmm I hope he notices this thread, I don't want to do that whole looking for free lawyer advice. they deserve the money they make.

sabphoto

Samsung Galaxy S8/S8+

03/30/2007 06:42:58 PM · #6

I may be alone in this but 99% of the time stuff left on my door gets one glance and goes in the trash...pretty much the same with mailers but I'm probably a minority in this. I do think the direct mailing would pay off better since you can better target your audience. good luck

03/30/2007 06:46:54 PM · #7

It is illegal to put anything in a mailbox that is not delivered by a postal employee with proper postage.

Mailboxes are considered federal property, under federal law (Title 18, United States Code, Section 1705)

I think that is the section.

Message edited by author 2007-03-30 18:57:23.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR

03/30/2007 08:32:46 PM · #8

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Isn't that just the mailboxes on the street. I know that all of the mailboxes I've had, I've paid for and installed myself. If the government owns it, why didn't they buy one for me?

RainMotorsports

Nikon D60

03/30/2007 08:38:40 PM · #9

Originally posted by gi_joe05:

hmm I hope he notices this thread, I don't want to do that whole looking for free lawyer advice. they deserve the money they make. [/quote]

Yeah the money some make... however the one defending the guy who admitted to murdering 8 people... yeah he should work for free!

03/30/2007 09:22:16 PM · #10

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
It is illegal to put anything in a mailbox that is not delivered by a postal employee with proper postage.

Mailboxes are considered federal property, under federal law (Title 18, United States Code, Section 1705)

I think that is the section.

Isn't that just the mailboxes on the street. I know that all of the mailboxes I've had, I've paid for and installed myself. If the government owns it, why didn't they buy one for me?

GAO
Â§ 310.2 Unlawful carriage of letters.
(a) It is generally unlawful under the Private Express Statutes for any person other than the Postal Service in any manner to send or carry a letter on a post route or in any manner to cause or assist such activity. Violation may result in injunction, fine or imprisonment or both and payment of postage lost as a result of the illegal activity (see Â§310.5).

Â§310.5

That answers the OP's question, now to Spaz. Man I am tired of looking at the law. The links above will tell ya. :-)

You paid for it but they own it. :-P

Message edited by author 2007-03-30 21:23:32.

downtherabbithole

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

03/30/2007 10:51:40 PM · #11

Originally posted by sabphoto:

well, with this is isn't a direct mailing so to say. Because we live and cater to a small town i know alot of people who are in high school. I simply offer them a free 8 by 10 for a list of names and adresses of all of their friends. it's a simple game really.

but in short your right, direct mail doesn't get read very often, but I always have ways around that. I put my mailer in poster mailing tubes, they are 5 in tall and I put a 5 by 19 print in them along with a mini cd with a promotional slide show and a brocure with our website/pricing and products on it.
I don't know if this is going to work, it's really our first mailer attempt being such a greenhorn studio, this is our very first senior season. I'm excited though

Penny Lane

Canon EOS-5D

03/30/2007 10:59:46 PM · #12

Originally posted by sabphoto:

I may also be unique, but I am much more likely to read "junk" mail than something in an envelope addressed to "the house holder".

BeeCee

Nikon D40

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

03/30/2007 11:06:06 PM · #13

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
It is illegal to put anything in a mailbox that is not delivered by a postal employee with proper postage.

Mailboxes are considered federal property, under federal law (Title 18, United States Code, Section 1705)

I think that is the section.

Isn't that just the mailboxes on the street. I know that all of the mailboxes I've had, I've paid for and installed myself. If the government owns it, why didn't they buy one for me?

GAO
Â§ 310.2 Unlawful carriage of letters.
(a) It is generally unlawful under the Private Express Statutes for any person other than the Postal Service in any manner to send or carry a letter on a post route or in any manner to cause or assist such activity. Violation may result in injunction, fine or imprisonment or both and payment of postage lost as a result of the illegal activity (see Â§310.5).

Â§310.5

That answers the OP's question, now to Spaz. Man I am tired of looking at the law. The links above will tell ya. :-)

You paid for it but they own it. :-P

So that would make courier companies illegal?

nomad469

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8D ED

03/30/2007 11:09:03 PM · #14

Dude I am so feeling your pain...
For a new studio getting people in the door is tough ... that being said I think that the direct mail thing is a source of very limited results and much frustration (less than 1% return)

I am searching for that killer combination to get em in... If I find it ... I'll let you know

nomad469

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8D ED

03/30/2007 11:10:23 PM · #15

Originally posted by BeeCee:

So that would make courier companies illegal?

They dont put anything IN your mailbox

03/30/2007 11:10:34 PM · #16

Originally posted by BeeCee:

So that would make courier companies illegal?

I don't know must be a kick back of some kind. :-P

03/30/2007 11:35:54 PM · #17

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Actually, you left out the important parts, specifically paragraphs (b), (c) & (d), which describe situations where delivering letters by people other than the Postal Service is legal.

Specifically relevant to the OP is paragraph (d) sections 2 & 3, which provide exemptions for letters sent by or addressed to the carrier and letters conveyed or transmitted without compensation respectively.

That means you can deliver mail you want to send to another's mailbox if you wish or you can deliver the mail for free.

Â§ 310.2 Unlawful carriage of letters.

(a) It is generally unlawful under the Private Express Statutes for any person other than the Postal Service in any manner to send or carry a letter on a post route or in any manner to cause or assist such activity. Violation may result in injunction, fine or imprisonment or both and payment of postage lost as a result of the illegal activity (see Â§310.5).

(b) Activity described in paragraph (a) of this section is lawful with respect to a letter if:

(1)(i) The letter is enclosed in an envelope or other suitable cover;

(ii) The amount of postage which would have been charged on the letter if it had been sent through the Postal Service is paid by stamps, or postage meter stamps, on the cover or by other methods approved by the Postal Service;

(iii) The name and address of the person for whom the letter is intended appear on the cover;

(iv) The cover is so sealed that the letter cannot be taken from it without defacing the cover;

(v) Any stamps on the cover are canceled in ink by the sender; and

(vi) The date of the letter, or of its transmission or receipt by the carrier, is endorsed on the cover in ink by the sender or carrier, as appropriate; or

(2)(i) The activity is in accordance with the terms of a written agreement between the shipper or the carrier of the letter and the Postal Service. Such an agreement may include some or all of the provisions of paragraph (b)(1) of this section, or it may change them, but it must:

(A) Adequately ensure payment of an amount equal to the postage to which the Postal Service would have been entitled had the letters been carried in the mail;

(B) Remain in effect for a specified period (subject to renewals); and

(C) Provide for periodic review, audit, and inspection.

(ii) Possible alternative arrangements may include but are not limited to:

(A) Payment of a fixed sum at specified intervals based on the shipper's projected shipment of letters for a given period, as verified by the Postal Service; or

(B) Utilization of a computer record to determine the volume of letters shipped during an interval and the applicable postage to be remitted to the Postal Service.

(c) The Postal Service may suspend the operation of any part of paragraph (b) of this section where the public interest requires the suspension.

(d) Activity described in paragraph (a) of this section is permitted with respect to letters which:

(1) Relate to some part of the cargo of, or to some article carried at the same time by, the conveyance carrying it (see Â§310.3(a));

(2) Are sent by or addressed to the carrier (see Â§310.3(b));

(3) Are conveyed or transmitted without compensation (see Â§310.3(c));

(4) Are conveyed or transmitted by special messenger employed for the particular occasion only, provided that not more than twenty-five such letters are conveyed or transmitted by such special messenger (see Â§310.3(d)); or

(5) Are carried prior or subsequent to mailing (see Â§310.3(e)).

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

03/30/2007 11:49:43 PM · #18

Spaz I looked it up so don't you think I would have read it.

I read allot of Title 39: Postal Service. Perhaps you should too. If you do you will find that USPO is all but a monopoly on your mail box. But thanks for reposting my link for everyone else to read.

If you are bucking for a fight I am not the guy. You can spin it or wish it were not so but alas it is.

Ciao

Message edited by author 2007-03-31 00:03:18.

BeeCee

Nikon D40

03/31/2007 12:21:25 AM · #19

Originally posted by nomad469:

Originally posted by BeeCee:

So that would make courier companies illegal?

They dont put anything IN your mailbox

The section he quoted says nothing about mailboxes, merely about sending or carrying mail. So even if they deliver it to your hand rather than your mailbox, they're still violating this, no?

"GAO
Â§ 310.2 Unlawful carriage of letters.
(a) It is generally unlawful under the Private Express Statutes for any person other than the Postal Service in any manner to send or carry a letter on a post route or in any manner to cause or assist such activity. Violation may result in injunction, fine or imprisonment or both and payment of postage lost as a result of the illegal activity (see Â§310.5)."

TCGuru

Canon EOS-40D

03/31/2007 12:45:31 AM · #20

Go to usps.com and they can give you GREAT rates on bulk mail. Don't go around sticking things in mailboxes... messing with the mail or a mailbox is a federal offense (notes to all you baseball bat mailbox haters LOL) :)

Good luck with the new studio!!! May the sessions (and the cash) fall from the heavens in such thickness that you can roll in it ;)

03/31/2007 02:07:44 AM · #21

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

I'm not looking for a fight, if anything, my beef would be with the USPS. I'll just wait until they bust me for sticking an invitation to a backyard BBQ in my neighbor's mailbox.

There are a lot of exceptions in that section you quote that seem to allow someone to hand deliver a notice/invitation themselves.

At any rate I don't have a mailbox anymore, I have a mail slot in my door.

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

03/31/2007 02:16:46 AM · #22

Originally posted by TCGuru:

(notes to all you baseball bat mailbox haters LOL) :)

That reminds me of a story I heard from a guy I used to work with.

He lived way out in the country on a dirt road and had a lot of problems with people driving by and smashing his mailbox. He could hear them hit it from his house, but, of course, by the time he got outside, they were usually long gone. One winter night, he hears his mailbox get smashed, then a little while later, there's a knock at the door. It a teenager, and he asks to use the phone because his car slid off the icy road into the ditch and he can't get a signal on his cell phone. So, the guy asks the teenager if he's the one that smashed his mailbox. The kid admits it and tries to apologize. The guy tells him good luck getting your car out of the ditch before the cops get here and slams the door in the kid's face.

jpochard

Canon EOS-40D

03/31/2007 02:26:49 AM · #23

Christopher,

Best wishes with your studio! I know a bunch of folks in Trenton, so I will keep you in mind for those needing a pro. Perhaps we can network...you send me real estate clients and I can send you some seniors etc!

If you get a chance, email me your pricing information so I can pass it on.

soup

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/31/2007 09:02:29 AM · #24

how many stamps did it cost to draw up those laws?

Dirt_Diver

Nikon D3s