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03/25/2007 11:26:45 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by scott180:
Finally to elaborate on what escapetooz posted, there really are four ways this can go:
There isn't a god and you don't believe- life is only what you make it now.
There isn't a god and you believe - Your fake moral compass will still lead you to higher living now, and after that, who cares.
There is a god and you don't believe - Eternal life in hell is now a reality.
Threre is a god and you do believe - Eternal life in heaven is a reality and the positive moral compass will guide you while you're here. |
It's unfortunate that this is the summary of your very long post, since you merely end up positing Pascal's Wager, thus reducing, for me, your entire piece to an anti-argument that looks disingenuous, while straining to do the opposite. It's good you end it like this, however, because, like many Christians, you display exactly those logical anomalies that make an atheist's job so easy; namely, putting forward an argument that relies soley on the argument itself, a phenemon called circular logic that is the mainstay of believers and the faithful. Plus I'll admit that your hints at "creationist science" and some kind of debate about homosexuality, as though you personally needed to decide on the fate of people or something, left me with a bad taste.
Hopefully nobody construes this as a personal attack on scott180 and his story, but rather on bad arguing. It is highly likely that Scott doesn't even consider himself in a state of argument for his particular position. It's just that I caught the reference to Pascal's Wager, which I find an intellectually demeaning concept, and I had to say something.
Further, for those Christians who are offended at the rib-poking: I'm often mystified when a group speaking from a position of ultimate control and authority cries foul at the smallest perceived slight. One can't help but to make dire totalitarian connections, where even the most benign kind of dissent is stamped out with ferocity in order to maintain the status quo. Yes, that borders on hyperboly, but it really seems absurd to make protestations of bigotry when you're the ruling class. One has the need to say, "Get over it," or, "So how do you like it then?"
Interesting links:
The Rejection of Pascal's Wager
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible
edit: sp, and also add interesting links
Message edited by author 2007-03-25 23:38:10. |
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03/26/2007 12:39:35 AM · #52 |
The really sad thing is that any of the Bible as it is today in our churches, libraries, whatever, is quoted as "Gospel".
The book was written over two thousand years ago by many people with varying opinions, and in language that does not directly translate to modern English.
So all that the zealots and strict adherers to their version of how they understand the book merely demonstrate themselves to be narrowminded and unwilling to be good and understanding to the people they come in contact with each and every day.
I have been fascinated with religions over the years, and from what I can tell, any God worthy of his adulation and praise, is a good, merciful, compassionate, and understanding God.
Most religions are on the same page about that.
Most religions pretty much seem to go with the idea that God, or whomever, will judge us when the time comes about how well we live our lives.....and well has nothing to do with whatever fame and fortune we amass, but rather how we measured up by being good to our fellow man in thought word, and deed.
I have no idea what my religion is as I merely believe that there is some kind of divine spirit that guides me, and looks out for my dumb ass whilst teaching me how to live well as long as I look for the signs.
He/she/it doesn't slap me upside the head, but gives me subtle hints and guidance that I may do the work and reap the results. I get no answers, but I learn to ask the questions to find out what I have to do to be a better man in all that I do.
I'm left to make my own decisions and choices, but also led to look for the guidance and renewal of my faith.
I find both the guidance and the faith in each and every aspect of my life.....even here at DPC.
BTW......just as an aside, I personally believe that Jesus was a truly good and decent man who lived and taught much good in his time.
I think that Jesus, the man, would be mortified at his deification. I see him saying, "No NO NOOOOOOO! You all are missing the point! It's not about me, it's about what I have brought you in my teachings and in the way I have shown you how I think, care about, and love my fellow man.".
Even should he be, is, was, ever shall be, God in any form, that's what I would imagine that he would want rather than us arguing insignificant points of belief and whether one is "righter" than the other.
Just my $0.02 U.S.
Take care, all, and be good and compassionate to each other. You will someday need the help of someone who you have a chance to be good to today.....don't miss the opportunity to be good to them first.
EDIT: Fat Fingers!!
Message edited by author 2007-03-26 00:43:25.
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03/26/2007 12:56:13 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I have no idea what my religion is as I merely believe that there is some kind of divine spirit that guides me, and looks out for my dumb ass whilst teaching me how to live well as long as I look for the signs. |
One can live well, and respectfully of and lovingly toward others without being told what goodness is. It's one's character that determines individual goodness or badness, not one's faith or religion, or lack of those. Or to put it another way, you are the spirit that guides you, and it's you looking out for your dumb ass, and it's you that invents the signs you look for and find that point you to a better life. |
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03/28/2007 12:47:17 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
Originally posted by Mulder:
I just have a question to some of those who have posted here (if they're still reading this)
How do you get that there are two stories of the creation of humans in the Bible? To me, the first mention is in the context of the timeline of creation, and then it talks of God resting on the 7th day, and then seems to return to the creation story to explain it more fully. I just don't see how two different stories can be taken from this. |
I explained it in fair detail. There are two separate creation events - even more "proof" (if the simple text is proof of anything) is that in the first event (1:26) the wording used is "in our image". "Our" is plural.
It's pretty easy to tell that they're separate simply by the ordering, and the fact that the end of Genesis 1 says "And the evening and the morning were the sixth day". Genesis 2 begins on the seventh day, which is when he created Adam. They happened on separate days. |
It seems that you have missed some key verses in your reading concerning the accounts of creation.
The first account of the creation of man does, indeed, take place on day six ( the same day that the beasts of the field were created ). And, just as you say, man's creation is presaged by the introduction "Let us create man in our image.
However, what you refer to as the second creation of Man ( on the 7th day, by your reckoning ) is preceded by an introductory phrase in Genesis 2:4-5 ( NIV ) that states: "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens--and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground..."
That introduction is meant to inform the reader that the following verses offer a more detailed description of certain of the creation events that were summarized in the preceding chapter. That intent should be obvious by the qualifying statement: "When...and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up...", since the earlier chapter clearly said that plants were created on the 3rd day.
Therefore, if one were to believe the argument presented about two separate creations of Man, then one must also believe that the Bible describes two separate creations of plant life - one on the 3rd day ( Gen 1:11-12 ) and another on ( or after ) the 7th day ( Gen. 2:9 ). And, one must also believe that the Bible describes two separate creations of beasts, one one the 6th day ( Gen. 1:24-25 ), and another on ( or after ) the 7th day ( Gen. 2:19 ).
As for me, I believe that scripture describes only one creation for each, but does so in two different narratives.
As for the argument about plural/elohim singular/jehovah, the explanation is that God is a triune God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God in three persons. Singular yet plural. Each is all, and all are one. |
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03/30/2007 02:10:04 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by David.C:
Originally posted by Mark:
I found the FAQ to be quite hateful and ignorant.
...
I apologize if I offended anyone too much, but it is my opinion that the sentiments reflected in the statements made are the cause of a large majority of the worlds problems, and if people continue on as this person does, the world will never see peace. Hatred justified by religion is as bad as any other kind of hatred. |
I quite agree -- nothing has created and sustained more hate and prejudice on this planet than organized religion.
David |
You know why this is...because "Man" is sinful. He will always do wrong no matter if he is religious or not. Does not surprise me that men would use religion for their own sake and a reason to hold others down. That is not the meaning behind religion...just what some have done to pervert it. Not all people are like this...I pray that I am one.
Just to clarify...which I know someone would comment...I hope I am one that wouldn't try and make religion or God for that matter what I want Him to be. I sin like every other person on earth, I am no better than anyone.
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04/02/2007 05:34:53 PM · #56 |
You people want to go get a drink with me??????
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