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03/11/2007 11:55:33 AM · #26 |
Well, I had this long, drawn out reply full of answers and questions and just deleted the entire thing. Participating in a thread like this is like standing against a wall and letting everyone who walks by kick me in the nuts - pointless.
I can't believe how anyone can defend such hypocrisy just because they are a member of the same political party but I'll let it go at that. I love the message but the messenger is an assinine hypocrite. Just remember, I am actually conserving electricity here at my home in Tennessee - not using much more electricity than the common man and buying my way out of it with "carbon credits".
You know what? Fack it. I am going to reply to your post. I'll number both yours and mine so it wil be easier to follow.
1. Yes, I'm talking to you. You don't enter challenges and just about all of your posts are in the rant forum.
2. Your gas bills of $800 a month have nothing to do with anything no matter how large or small your home is. His home is in Tennessee, where my home is, and we just don't have $1,000 per month gas bills. Once again, my point is that he isn't conserving. And as far as the "falling for a right wing hatchet job" - I'm not falling for anything other than fact. Show me where he uses less electricity than was reported and we'll discuss it. I have nothing else to base my opinions on. Do you?
No person has paid more than Gore for green credits? Click me and look to the right. See "business supporters"? Now click each link and find me Al Gore's name. Now before you say, "those are businesses", look carefully and you'll see that they're not all businesses. And even if they were, remember Gore uses a room in his 20 room 8 bathroom home as an office. Hell, if that doesn't satisy you, do a site search on TVA.gov via Google and see how much praise he gets for buying green power. The fact is that he hasn't been buying it long enough to get any recognition from the people who actually make the power. Weird isn't it?
3. I use dirty electricity. My electricity is made by coal. I never once said it was clean until Gore bought it did I?
Also, why keep ignoring the obvious on the carbon credits? Whatever you do, don't forget to defend Al Gore to the death for the simple fact that he is a Democrat. It's eerily similar to the Republicans who defend Bush on his failed policies. I couldn't care less if he paid a million dollars a month on credits. Do what you want the rest of us to do and actually reduce consumption rather than buy your way out of it. Why would anyone defend that? Why not actually conserve energy AND give all that money towards carbon credits for the people who aren't going to conserve and/or pollute the air? If it's really that important to him he would've already done it. Imagine how much respect he would get if he actually did "dramatically cut back on consumption" (his words, not mine). He also only started buying green energy recently but it's been available for some time. Also, I'm still waiting on an answer to my Paris Hilton analogy.
4. Contributions? Paying off his usage with money rather than inconveniencing himself and setting a good example? Like I said before, we know him here and if he would've won HIS OWN HOME STATE IN 2000, he'd have been President from 2000-2004 and maybe right now.
5. What energy conservation bills did Gore bring up while in office that the Republicans shot down? I'm very interested in an answer to this question if you don't mind.
6. I wasn't talking about personal charities ginger. I was talking about Federal monies.
7. Sure, I quoted them. What does it say in my first sentence though? it says, "I hope it isn't, but if this turns out to be true....". I realize that the Tennessee Center for Policy Research is obviously a right wing outfit - never claimed otherwise. However, the facts are indisputable aren't they? Can you prove otherwise?
8. You think Gore isn't biased? You think Bush isn't biased? You think Clinton isn't biased? You think Cheney isn't biased? You think most politicians aren't biased? Do be so blind as to think that a member of the Democratic party would ever do anything that wasn't biased.
And please don't give me the blah blah Al Gore is a huge promoter of conservation blah blah. I have said numerous times already that I agree with the message. This is not what the thread was about is it? It was about the hypocrisy of the messenger.
I think I answered all of your questions. Care to answer some of mine?
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Do you actually take photos anymore or do you just use this site as a soapbox for your rantings? |
1.Are you talking to me? Good grief, I post here about once twice a week, and don't visit here for months at a time, sometimes.. And don't look down - you are on a soapbox too.
Originally posted by dudephil:
The moral of the story is this: Don't act like a conservationist if you aren't going to conserve. Originally posted by dudephil:
Let's not forget his gas bill that supposedly equals $1080 per month as well. |
2.I have had gas bills of $800.00 a month in the winter up here in Vermont. And my house is 1/5 the size of Gore's. His house sounds fairly efficient. As if anybody should care.
And Al Gore has done more to promote conservation than anyone in America in the past ten years, I reckon. To fall for some disgusting right-wing hatchet job and come away with the idea that his contribution has just been "neutralized" is tragic.
Originally posted by dudephil:
Carbon credits are the biggest joke since knock knock was invented. Sure, he may purchase them but he still isn't conserving. He is just paying someone to plant trees to cover for his use of dirty electricity and private jet fuel. Let's change the person to, say, Paris Hilton. Let's say her "Hummer" gets 9 mpg. Now she could actually drive something different but she chooses to continue to pollute the air because she can afford, and buys, carbon credits. Does this make her a hero? No. Then why does Gore get a pass for the exact same thing? |
No person in the entire state pays any where near the green credits that Gore does. His payments alone have had a substantial impact on the ability of green energy producers to expand their infrastructure.
3. And what is this stuff about "dirty" electricity? You use it, I use it. But when Gore buys electricity suddenly its "dirty"?
Originally posted by dudephil:
So as you can see, conservation, not buying your way out, is the key to "saving our planet". |
4.I think that the way to save our planet has less to do with what individuals do on a local level, and everything to do with policy on a national level. At least Gore is doing a lot to try to change policy (as well as his local contributions).
Originally posted by dudephil:
Let's not forget too that while GW Bush certainly isn't our hero in this fight, Al Gore had plenty of time while in office to make a difference. |
5.He also had a republican-controlled congress for almost all that time, and they squelched evrything they could. Keep your eye on the villians here, eh?
Originally posted by dudephil:
Heck, in his own state, he gave less money in 8 years to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park than Bush did in his first 6 months. |
6.Some how I would bet that he gave to other charities as well, likely to a much larger tune than Bush?? Or are you just cherry-picking something to smear Gore?
Originally posted by dudephil:
Now, once again, don't misunderstand me for some mindless sheep as I hardly consider Bush a model spokesman for the environment either.individual that practices what s/he preaches. |
7.Hey, you are the guy that quoted the 'Tennessee Center for Policy Research' like it was a credible source.
Originally posted by dudephil:
What we need is a likable, UNBAISED, well spoken individual that practices what s/he preaches. |
8.Why do you think he is biased?
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03/11/2007 01:25:20 PM · #27 |
Well, I guess you are right about me ranting. I stopped entering challenges a long time ago, and I do come here pretty much only to rant. I concede that point to you. Without any nut-kicking.
What I really don't understand is your anger and enormous feeling of betrayal toward Gore. Then again, I am sure you deal with every issue that may come up, as you live there.
But I will say one thing. If you are an avid The Tennessean reader, perhaps that is it. According to what I read today, it was that paper that decided to dig up these facts, and that they then gave the info to the Tennesse Center for blah-di-blah.
I gotta ask - WHY?? Surely the energy use of Tennessee politicians is not the usual fodder for the news. The fact that The Tennessean went looking for this tells me in no uncertain terms that they were looking to smear him. That they gave this info to a smear group is reprehensible, if true.
One wonders about the slant of the media you are constantly exposed to down there.
I just find it very curious indeed that you despise Al Gore so much, and yet say you are a staunch Democrat. The MSM has been dealing him dirty for the past ten years.
Shite like he said he invented the internet - never said it! And on and on and on and on.
Anyway, those of us outside Tennessee find him pretty darned impressive.
As far as this supposed energy scandal - some new stuff I read today.
Supposedly, Al Gore uses no "dirty" electricity. All the juice they buy is from Green sources. PLUS, they buy the carbon offsets to make up for that, on top of it!
The electric bill they have is 30-40% higher just because of the Green Energy electricity, and thn you need to add add the carbon blocks. What a hypocrite he is!! He pays through the nose for clean electricity, and THEN pays carbon offsets as well, on top of it. What a hypocritical maroon!!
And guess what? His electric use per square foot is actually slightly under the square foot average for the area. Amazing really, considering that he is running an international campaign against global warming out of his house. And his wife has a real office there too. And thay have office staff and security staff. And no doubt see and entertain a lot of people on a lot of occasions. My conclusion? - he IS conserving.
He uses compact flourescents, is retrofitting his house for solar, drives a hybrid - and he is NOT walking the walk?? He is doing a hellofalot more than I am - and I'll bet a lot more than you do, as well.
Now, I can't find the bloody article today - sorry - but yesterday I read quotes from the electric company he uses - a spokesman there said that he buys more carbon blocks than any other (household) customer. She said something like she wished everybody was like him.
Why don't YOU start buying carbon blocks now as well? Why not start inconveniencing yourself a little, and work to offset your own carbon footprint. When you purchase the blocks, you are paying for noncarbon electric generation. You aren't just paying your way out of some supposed moral hypocrisy. You are actually doing something about it. Whay not start holding yourself up to the same ridiculously high standard you hold Gore up to?
Harrumph!! |
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03/11/2007 03:54:55 PM · #28 |
Jesus Christ.
Where are you getting your information? I never said I was a staunch Democrat. I'm not a Republican either. Why do you still not answer a single one of my questions yet go off into a political tangent expecting more answers from me?
Like I said, it's like getting kicked in the boys. You refuse to have a discussion on points other than the sources. I asked you to find information to help sway my opinion and you have presented nothing. ALL of my questions below have went unanswered. Why is that? Because you assume more than you actually know.
You have succeeded in doing nothing but wasting time. Until you decide to answer my questions I see no need in going any further. My nuts are too sore for more of this.
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03/11/2007 05:16:14 PM · #29 |
Your whole argument is that Gore is a hypocrite, and you base that on stats from the article you posted.
I countered that his energy use per square foot is lower than the average in that area. That pretty much negates your whole bloody argument, I should think.
Here is the link to that info, which comes withn a free rant about people with your attitude, which you will no doubt find completely unreadable.
//www.anonymousliberal.com/2007/02/gores-energy-use.html
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03/11/2007 06:00:22 PM · #30 |
Anybody know how many days out of that year Gore's house was occupied? It seems to me they do quite a bit of traveling. When I leave the house I cut back on the heating and cooling. I guess they may have a few servants that remain there.
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03/12/2007 07:50:41 AM · #31 |
| Supposedly they run two decent-sized offices there, with staffs, plus a security detail . Supposedly. :) |
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03/12/2007 09:26:34 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
1. Yes, I'm talking to you. You don't enter challenges and just about all of your posts are in the rant forum.
2. Your gas bills of $800 a month have nothing to do with anything no matter how large or small your home is. His home is in Tennessee, where my home is, and we just don't have $1,000 per month gas bills. Once again, my point is that he isn't conserving. And as far as the "falling for a right wing hatchet job" - I'm not falling for anything other than fact. Show me where he uses less electricity than was reported and we'll discuss it. I have nothing else to base my opinions on. Do you?
No person has paid more than Gore for green credits? Click me and look to the right. See "business supporters"? Now click each link and find me Al Gore's name. Now before you say, "those are businesses", look carefully and you'll see that they're not all businesses. And even if they were, remember Gore uses a room in his 20 room 8 bathroom home as an office. Hell, if that doesn't satisy you, do a site search on TVA.gov via Google and see how much praise he gets for buying green power. The fact is that he hasn't been buying it long enough to get any recognition from the people who actually make the power. Weird isn't it?
3. I use dirty electricity. My electricity is made by coal. I never once said it was clean until Gore bought it did I?
Also, why keep ignoring the obvious on the carbon credits? Whatever you do, don't forget to defend Al Gore to the death for the simple fact that he is a Democrat. It's eerily similar to the Republicans who defend Bush on his failed policies. I couldn't care less if he paid a million dollars a month on credits. Do what you want the rest of us to do and actually reduce consumption rather than buy your way out of it. Why would anyone defend that? Why not actually conserve energy AND give all that money towards carbon credits for the people who aren't going to conserve and/or pollute the air? If it's really that important to him he would've already done it. Imagine how much respect he would get if he actually did "dramatically cut back on consumption" (his words, not mine). He also only started buying green energy recently but it's been available for some time. Also, I'm still waiting on an answer to my Paris Hilton analogy.
4. Contributions? Paying off his usage with money rather than inconveniencing himself and setting a good example? Like I said before, we know him here and if he would've won HIS OWN HOME STATE IN 2000, he'd have been President from 2000-2004 and maybe right now.
5. What energy conservation bills did Gore bring up while in office that the Republicans shot down? I'm very interested in an answer to this question if you don't mind.
6. I wasn't talking about personal charities ginger. I was talking about Federal monies.
7. Sure, I quoted them. What does it say in my first sentence though? it says, "I hope it isn't, but if this turns out to be true....". I realize that the Tennessee Center for Policy Research is obviously a right wing outfit - never claimed otherwise. However, the facts are indisputable aren't they? Can you prove otherwise?
8. You think Gore isn't biased? You think Bush isn't biased? You think Clinton isn't biased? You think Cheney isn't biased? You think most politicians aren't biased? Do be so blind as to think that a member of the Democratic party would ever do anything that wasn't biased.
And please don't give me the blah blah Al Gore is a huge promoter of conservation blah blah. I have said numerous times already that I agree with the message. This is not what the thread was about is it? It was about the hypocrisy of the messenger.
I think I answered all of your questions. Care to answer some of mine? |
1. I thought this thread was about personal attacks on Gore...
2. He lives in a mansion with two offices, his utility bills are going to be higher than yours. There's plenty of information out there on what he is doing to conserve energy. Compared to other estates that size, he's doing a great job.
Since when is the TVA the only place to buy credits!
3. It doesn't matter what political party he belongs too, I defend him because he's making a difference. If Paris Hilton traveled the world promoting the environment she would get the same respect.
I don't understand why you keep knocking carbon credits. Maybe your hatred for Gore is bleeding over to them? Buying carbon offsets (credits) are extremely important since most governments are addicted to dirtier energy. For example, wind energy companies often sell carbon offsets. The wind energy company benefits because the carbon offsets it sells make such projects more economically viable. The buyers of the offsets benefit because they can claim that their purchase resulted in new non-polluting energy, which they can use to mitigate their own greenhouse gas emissions.
4. I think he's more than inconveniencing himself by traveling the world to spread the message and by having to deal with the nay sayers who try to trash him. His "paying off his usage with money" is important as it helps develop the green technology.
5. I'm Canadian so someone else can talk about this
6. Once again I don't follow US politics closely enough
7. Those facts are spun in a negative way to smear Gore. Very fair of them to leave out the rest.
8. All politicians are assholes which is probably why you hate Gore so much. Try to separate the politician from the man. |
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03/12/2007 09:35:14 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Anyway, those of us outside Tennessee find him pretty darned impressive.
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That should read "some of us outside Tennessee .. .."
Of course, I grew up only 20 or so miles from the TN line, so maybe that makes me part TN-ian. |
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03/12/2007 10:27:10 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by poonaka:
Blah blah blah |
I'm going to reply to the entire post as quickly as possible since it was pretty much about carbon credits and Gore the man.
I'm not knocking carbon credits. You two are reading what you want and ignoring the rest. The fact (and the entire gist of this thread) is this: Don't preach less consumption to me when you use more than most and buy your way out of it via carbon credits. Just because he can afford to pay more for his consumption you are willing to call him a conservationist? R I D I C U L O U S
Now as for Gore the politician vs Gore the man. They're both the same person. I hate to disappoint you but he doesn't take his batman suit off at night. Do some research on his many different stances on tobacco usage and, here's a real big one since he is such the environmentalist, pollution of the pigeon river (Do a wikipedia on "Pigeon River (Tennessee - North Carolina)" and read the last paragraph).
We know him here guys. Like I said, if he had won his home state in the 2000 election things would've been much different for him. When a Presidential candidate can't carry his own state don't you think that's a sign of Gore the man, Gore the politician, Gore the Conqueror or whatever the sheep want to call him?
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03/12/2007 10:41:21 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by This Whole Thread:
Blah blah blah |
sheesh
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03/12/2007 10:42:52 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by poonaka:
Blah blah blah |
Now as for Gore the politician vs Gore the man. They're both the same person. I hate to disappoint you but he doesn't take his batman suit off at night. Do some research on his many different stances on tobacco usage and, here's a real big one since he is such the environmentalist, pollution of the pigeon river (Do a wikipedia on "Pigeon River (Tennessee - North Carolina)" and read the last paragraph).
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I live in Canton (the NC source of the Pigeon), and we could go on and on about his "efforts" to shut down the papermill.
One of the things that never really saw a lot of press during the "trials" and what not (and this took place in the mid-80s, so forgive me for not showing the documentation), is that while he was all over Champion Paper for cleaning up the Pigeon, he never, never addressed the pollution of the French Broad (which joins the Pigeon near the state line), or the continued pollution of the Pigeon within the TN line. At one point, near Newport, TN, the Pigeon was a popular dumping ground for old and trashed cars. This has continued recently, within the past 10 years.
Also, we never heard of his attempting to clean up TN's papermills and rivers. So, to this NC-ian, it really did appear a political move more than an environmental one. A move based more on political jockeying and $$$ than on trying to clean up the water.
Sorry if I'm not all for this poster boy. I just don't trust politicians, in general, enough to believe that they do anything that isn't a boost to their career, or more importantly, their pocketbook.
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03/12/2007 11:18:42 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Sorry if I'm not all for this poster boy. I just don't trust politicians, in general, enough to believe that they do anything that isn't a boost to their career, or more importantly, their pocketbook. |
That's perfectly fine. I don't trust most politicians either. The point is he's spreading a good message and I applaud him for that. I could care less if it's motivated by $$$, or power, I'm just glad the message is getting out there. I still think this follows the same analogy of people who go door to door for charities. If they don't donate 100% of their income to the charity does that mean the work they do is invalid? Should we mock them? |
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03/12/2007 11:32:36 AM · #38 |
unfortunately, though, if you don't trust the messenger, the message may come out wrong.
I'm all for conserving energy, reducing global warming and conservation, in general. But, when Al Gore stands up and says, "Do this." it makes me wonder what the hidden agenda is.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is, IF my mind weren't already "made up" about the issue, having Al Gore be the spokesman definitely wouldn't win me to the cause. I would simply think that he is doing/saying whatever he needs to do to get elected/line his pocketbook. |
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03/12/2007 09:14:11 PM · #39 |
Everything you've said is true. Like you said, he seemed to not worry about our papermills and pollution but had a vendetta against the one in Canton UNTIL Terry Sanford (D North Carolina) and Jamie Clarke (D North Carolina) asked him to chill out on it. After that, he wrote the EPA opposing tighter pollution control from the Canton mill that he previously pursued.
Originally posted by karmat:
I live in Canton (the NC source of the Pigeon), and we could go on and on about his "efforts" to shut down the papermill.
One of the things that never really saw a lot of press during the "trials" and what not (and this took place in the mid-80s, so forgive me for not showing the documentation), is that while he was all over Champion Paper for cleaning up the Pigeon, he never, never addressed the pollution of the French Broad (which joins the Pigeon near the state line), or the continued pollution of the Pigeon within the TN line. At one point, near Newport, TN, the Pigeon was a popular dumping ground for old and trashed cars. This has continued recently, within the past 10 years.
Also, we never heard of his attempting to clean up TN's papermills and rivers. So, to this NC-ian, it really did appear a political move more than an environmental one. A move based more on political jockeying and $$$ than on trying to clean up the water.
Sorry if I'm not all for this poster boy. I just don't trust politicians, in general, enough to believe that they do anything that isn't a boost to their career, or more importantly, their pocketbook. |
Couldn't have said it better myself (and obviously didn't though I did try). I think I've said twice (or more) in this thread that my intent was not to discredit the message but for everyone to watch out for the messenger. It doesn't take a Republican to see that he has had a real problem with hypocrisy. It only takes someone who knew this man quite awhile before he became VP in 92.
Originally posted by karmat:
unfortunately, though, if you don't trust the messenger, the message may come out wrong.
I'm all for conserving energy, reducing global warming and conservation, in general. But, when Al Gore stands up and says, "Do this." it makes me wonder what the hidden agenda is.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is, IF my mind weren't already "made up" about the issue, having Al Gore be the spokesman definitely wouldn't win me to the cause. I would simply think that he is doing/saying whatever he needs to do to get elected/line his pocketbook. |
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