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03/04/2007 10:16:07 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by super-dave:
do i think the first image looks amateur? no ...
do i think the first image looks porn-ish? yes ... a little, but i don't think that's a bad thing.
as i said before, fotomann is pointing out that there's a convention in DPC that nudes must conform to the dark, faceless, black and white shape nudes.
ribbons first, originality second. |
DPC does seem to favor the style of nude photography that fits the traditional conventions for the art form, but I think I would disagree with you that this necessarily precludes originality within the form. Also, you guys keep talking about your originality being constrained, but I'm not sure that footman's first picture--photographing a pretty, tattooed girl on a sheet in her underwear--is really all that original. It seems to be a pretty good (albiet better shot) example of the "new porn" conventions that can be found on some of the alternative nude sites such as Suicide Girls, which I see footman had done a study for in his portfolio. (To be fair, I don't think he claimed that it was original, just technically difficult, interesting, and fun; and I think it succeeds on all those levels.)
The traditional nude conventions do constrain what is acceptable (no color, for example), but I don't really see how this is that much different from the DPC challenge model as a whole. Every DPC challenge (except perhaps the Free Studys) present some sort of constraint on the photographer and the trick (one I have yet to master) is to try and do something interesting and/or original within that constraint.
And considering how much the nude has been done in photography/painting/art/etc., being truly original is incredibly difficult to achieve. |
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03/04/2007 11:00:11 AM · #27 |
| DRJones nudes don't seem to go for subtle - they drip sex. They are incredible photos and score very well. |
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03/04/2007 11:07:51 AM · #28 |
Even DrJones' highest scoring nude is what I would describe as a traditional nude.
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03/04/2007 11:16:37 AM · #29 |
| Yeahhh....but look at all those shadows ;) |
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03/04/2007 11:54:23 AM · #30 |
Maxim magazine has incredible photographers of woman, and they are quite edgey, but always well captured.
I mention this because I have witnessed a wide variety of photos that are recieved in high standards...I have to agree with the one gentlemen who says amateurish photos get related to porn. |
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03/04/2007 11:58:01 AM · #31 |
There are thousands of styles of photography that aren't accepted by DPC - so why should nudes be different?
Go ahead, enter a product shot that you made enough on to pay for your entire camera and studio - 5.0
Enter a shot that looks like its straight from Better Homes and Gardens (I didn't enter it, don't bother looking) - I could see the comments - too many blown highlights in the windows - 4.5
Enter something in the style of a pictorial from Vogue, Esquire, Reader's Digest for that matter. Doesn't have that "oomph", 5.0
Enter a photo you shoot for stock - 5.3. Goes on to sell for $950 on Alamy, but 5.3 here.
Super_dave says that photography is about breaking conventions. I would add that SOME photography is about breaking conventions - most is not. Try shooting products for a catalog and see how many conventions your paying client will let you break. "Just put it on white, light it flat, shoot it and let's move on".
When you've proven you can break conventions in just the right way, then you can shoot for Vogue and show us your bare bulb trailer park style - and won't care what score we give because you made $40,000/day shooting it.
So my response is "what else is new?". DPC is a maddening place of shifting whims and lottery-like predictability of scores because we let EVERYONE vote. My experience is it has little reflection on the "real" world of photography.
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03/04/2007 12:01:36 PM · #32 |
I guess the part that I object to is the lumping of DPC into a single philosophy about nudes. I'm glad  DrJones was brought up because the subject matter in many of his photos is something that doesn't really appeal to me; yet I love his work and spend lots of time admiring his portfolio, because they are so well done. Somehow I don't think I'm the only one;)
Yes, his highest scoring shot is an artistic nude; but a visit to his front page is all it takes to show that he has a broad spectrum of styles, all of which he has mastered, IMHO. It's clear that he pays great attention to detail, poses and lighting, and that he rarely uploads anything but the highest quality images.
Granted, this one didn't win a ribbon. But it came in 4th in a free study challenge. Right after a landscape and two birds. It's true that no naughty parts are showing, unless you consider being outside buck-naked as naughty;) But it seems to go against this "philosophy".
I believe a successful photographer is one who is able to communicate their message clearly and concisely. What are you trying to say with your first image? Is the message being misunderstood?
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03/04/2007 12:09:45 PM · #33 |
I decided to tweak Leroys photo to see if it could be presented more artistically. I used his modified image (already resized and edited) and came up with something that I think may be more accepted by dpc'ers.
Obvious a crop & conversion to B&W, I burned in some faint shadows that were in the color version and dodged the hair some. Border and framing seems to help some. Added some grain. Also, I did like the color version, don't get me wrong.
Dr. Jones has mastered light and shadow. That's where the success is, in my opinion. Would also like to add that this is a lovely model!! Nothing wrong with her at all. Gorgeous.
Message edited by author 2007-03-04 12:29:58. |
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03/04/2007 12:43:14 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by CalliopeKel:
I decided to tweak Leroys photo to see if it could be presented more artistically. I used his modified image (already resized and edited) and came up with something that I think may be more accepted by dpc'ers.
Obvious a crop & conversion to B&W, I burned in some faint shadows that were in the color version and dodged the hair some. Border and framing seems to help some. Added some grain. Also, I did like the color version, don't get me wrong.
Dr. Jones has mastered light and shadow. That's where the success is, in my opinion. Would also like to add that this is a lovely model!! Nothing wrong with her at all. Gorgeous. |
To be honest I like that much better than the original. Neither one feels pornographic to me, but in the original the combination of the color, composition, and light really don't do it for me. |
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03/04/2007 01:37:46 PM · #35 |
Just to add a couple more cents to the discussion -
DPC seems to me to place a huge emphasis on learning, and learning, in art, is typically a study of convention. The theory being that once convention is mastered, one can then start breaking it. So, with an emphasis on learning, the conventional is going to be favored. Which isn't a bad thing! Structure is often a good thing. We all know there are some very unstructured sites out there (I'm sure everyone just thought of one) and a good chunk of folks don't want to see that here.
In addition, on the topic of nudes, you're dealing with a society that has a thing against nudes as it is, so any nude pictures are going to have to have some element to them that screams "this is not dirty!" Moody lighting, conventionally a very 'artistic' thing, is the viewer's first cue that they're looking at art and not pornography. I think the trick here is to learn these cues and then start playing with them.
I think it would be very interesting to see a study of nudes using only one element. The two pictures you used were quite different, but perhaps in the first one, if she had been in similar lighting and pose as the second, but her original background, etc., there may be a different reaction. Studying those reactions would be a good way to learn how to stretch those boundaries.
(sorry so long!) |
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03/04/2007 02:28:38 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by CalliopeKel:
I decided to tweak Leroys photo to see if it could be presented more artistically. I used his modified image (already resized and edited) and came up with something that I think may be more accepted by dpc'ers.
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No offense to your great PP Kelly (and I do like the conversion), but that just screams at me "I'm gonna make this art!" It's just a bit forced IMO :-)
I'm more interested in Pinup than traditional art nudes. And I draw a lot of inspiration from Americana, although I am quite fond of Victorian nudes.
To me, "traditional" B&W nudes have become more cliche than flowers :-)
What really strikes me as funny is that DPC is by far a "pop art" site with every other genre. Nudes are the only genre here that are expected to be "fine art" .
Message edited by author 2007-03-04 14:29:35.
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03/04/2007 03:18:54 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
There are thousands of styles of photography that aren't accepted by DPC - so why should nudes be different?
Enter a photo you shoot for stock - 5.3. Goes on to sell for $950 on Alamy, but 5.3 here. |
You may be right about the other things you listed but this one you're way off. Stock images rule DPC. You just have to make sure it's not boring. ;)
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
To me, "traditional" B&W nudes have become more cliche than flowers :-)
What really strikes me as funny is that DPC is by far a "pop art" site with every other genre. Nudes are the only genre here that are expected to be "fine art" . |
I totally get what you're saying. I think that is because many are really closet conservatives, just a little more liberal than the staunch conservatives who don't want to see any nudity period.
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03/04/2007 04:01:08 PM · #38 |
| What!! the great nakedness debate and Judi is nowhere to be seen? **i bet shes hiding somewhere, ready to pounce at any moment** |
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03/04/2007 04:07:04 PM · #39 |
I have been reading this debate and feel that at this stage there isn't anything else that I can say that hasn't either already been said, or, I haven't said before. I have spoken my mind on many previous occasions and it hasn't changed the way the nudity is received...so why would it now.
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03/04/2007 04:26:16 PM · #40 |
| What I find ironic, is that in spite of this debate in regards to whether or not dpchallenge is more accepting of one type of nude over another, overall, any nude image still gets butt-loads more views than most other images. :oP |
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03/05/2007 09:39:58 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by Brielle:
What I find ironic, is that in spite of this debate in regards to whether or not dpchallenge is more accepting of one type of nude over another, overall, any nude image still gets butt-loads more views than most other images. :oP |
Oh I SOOOOOO agree with you on that! I uploaded my first shot in the nude gallery last week, and it's not even the best shot from the shoot I did (not even close). It is very quickly becoming my most-viewed image by far. A few of the posters here commented on it (thanks)--in fact, I think Leroy proposed to her LOL!! You can talk all day long about shadow, light, composition, angles, etc etc, but the bottom line is, if your shot has boobies, it'll get attention--lots of it. Not saying that's such a bad thing, but people will pay a LOT more attention to it. I put up two more shots of the same model (clothed), and they are pretty much getting ignored, even though I personally like them better than the topless photo.
Just my long-winded way of agreeing with you. :o) |
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03/05/2007 11:13:23 AM · #42 |
I totally agree that some types of styles are more accepted here at dpc. I used to think that this site was a good random cross-section of the audience in the actual world. No it's not.
Your 1st one could use some more artistic expression, without being like the 2nd. Maybe some more post-processing can give it a different implied feelings or perception. Perception is everything. No it's only porn style. It's not as emotive or moody as the 2nd. Emotive, moods, statements, messages, all the great characteristics of photos, can be captured in Living-Color. It's like comparing the ancient evolution of Playboy-vs-Penthouse, photography. Some butts are more acceptable, even in Sun-Tan lotion billboards.
If you took the best of both Dr Jones and Fotoman and combined them, that might be excellent. |
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03/05/2007 11:33:13 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by Brielle:
What I find ironic, is that in spite of this debate in regards to whether or not dpchallenge is more accepting of one type of nude over another, overall, any nude image still gets butt-loads more views than most other images. :oP |
Yes, indeed!
 - 1239 views
- 978 views
My third place - 156 views.
And they're FAR from being that good :-)
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03/05/2007 11:42:16 AM · #44 |
Nude legs and nude shoulder blades??!! Oh yes! ... How controversial and pertinent to this discussion ... bleh ...
It cannot only be me that thinks this is a total waste of attempt at defending ANYTHING.
Not to mention ... I think that the processing on the first is eye-catching, artistic and unique and that the tonal quality of the second one is exceptional.
That, of course, is just my humble opinion. I don't think they are "FAR from being that good" at all!
Message edited by author 2007-03-05 11:46:46.
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03/05/2007 11:54:02 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by Judi:
I have been reading this debate and feel that at this stage there isn't anything else that I can say that hasn't either already been said, or, I haven't said before. I have spoken my mind on many previous occasions and it hasn't changed the way the nudity is received...so why would it now. |
I think that that Judi's definition of what is and what is not acceptible as photographic art in the nudity department is very close to mine ... but that is not to say that an incredible image of a woman's genital labia, coming along, that was so sensitive and artistic as to stun you with its visual art and technical skill could not possibly make us change our perception of what is art and what is gratuitous nudity.
But ... there are exceptions to every rule ...
Message edited by author 2007-03-05 11:55:04.
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03/05/2007 11:58:44 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by Greetmir:
Nude legs and nude shoulder blades??!! Oh yes! ... How controversial and pertinent to this discussion ... bleh ...
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I was fully aware that some people had foot fetishes, but shoulder blade fetishes... I guess to each his own :-) LMAO
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03/05/2007 12:01:47 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
I was fully aware that some people had foot fetishes, but shoulder blade fetishes... I guess to each his own :-) LMAO |
Believe me when I say there are far stranger fixations out there. :oP |
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03/05/2007 01:01:57 PM · #48 |
The following was a fun colorful nicely done nude.
Here is a racy/flirty one with strong eye contact.
I don't think that color or eye contact is really the issue. In the two examples I found the first to be cluttered busy and to have noticeable flaws. Felt more snap-shottish.
The latter shadowed image was not only more artsy but I felt it was better composed utilize lighting more strongly and made for a more interesting subject.
It wasn't the content but rather the caliber of the two photos that differed.
Also, personal preference makes a big difference. Some like sexy pin-up style photos which convey racy sexiness. Personally, I don't find these all that interesting. I prefer softer feminimity in photos. The quality of such photographs can be on par but the appeal for me will not be. That's just personal preference.
7th Place (racy/colorful)
They're not bad photos...few would argue the above isn't an excellent photo. The color capture is quite nice. But I just tend to prefer a different style. Hence the following are my favorite nudes.
(just love the lines, the tones, the detail, the facial expression, the sensual innoncence, and the gorgeous beauty of the model in the water)
(loved this shot, and it was a self-portrait to boot)
(hey, even a racy style shot can be done so exceptionally well as to be breath-takingly artsy.)
Message edited by author 2007-03-05 13:03:06. |
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