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02/28/2007 09:10:58 AM · #1 |
OK, I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find anything specifically about it in the forums.
What about letting people unsubmit their photos from a challenge after voting has started? (And I don't mean the way the rules are now, with just one opportunity to do that.)
With the size of the challenges these days, wouldn't that help somewhat to kind of "blow out the chaff"?
Now, understand that I am NOT in ANY WAY denigrating anyone's work, I'm just saying that we all have entered photos that were...last minute, or that we knew weren't really all that great, but we just HAD to enter something, then we regretted it, and would really just like to delete it.
I know that when I start getting a really crappy score, I just want to delete the thing and be done with it. (Yes, like now!! haha!)
I have no idea what this would mean as far as the complexity of the issue for the site, so that alone might make it not feasible.
So...what would be the reasons for allowing or NOT allowing this? Why would it be a good/bad idea?
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02/28/2007 09:13:09 AM · #2 |
| Personally, I could see me getting annoyed that I voted on a bunch of photos that were later removed. |
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02/28/2007 09:14:31 AM · #3 |
| I am against it. BTW i score sub 5 alot but still feel it would hurt the site. once every 25 challenges seems like enough to me. |
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02/28/2007 09:17:04 AM · #4 |
| So if everyone that doesn't like their score is allowed to unsubmitt, then all challenges would consist of 5 or 10 shots by final day.... that would suck. :( |
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02/28/2007 09:17:49 AM · #5 |
@TechnoShroom: Personally, I could see me getting annoyed that I voted on a bunch of photos that were later removed.
Yeah, I thought about that, but I decided that I could live with that.
But, I also thought that I would have the tendency to comment more if there were less entries. Sometimes I want to comment, but I look at a challenge with 400-500 entries and don't even bother because I know I don't have the time to wade through so many.
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 09:20:11. |
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02/28/2007 09:20:47 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by idnic:
So if everyone that doesn't like their score is allowed to unsubmitt, then all challenges would consist of 5 or 10 shots by final day.... that would suck. :( |
LOL, yeah it would, but I couldn't see that happening! |
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02/28/2007 09:23:06 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by LindaLee:
@TechnoShroom: Personally, I could see me getting annoyed that I voted on a bunch of photos that were later removed.
Yeah, I thought about that, but I decided that I could live with that.
But, I also thought that I would have the tendency to comment more if there were less entries. Sometimes I want to comment, but I look at a challenge with 400-500 entries and don't even bother because I know I don't have the time to wade through so many. |
I think that many people would wait till the last day to unsubmit so you would still have to vote and comment on just as many photos to in the end have them disappear. |
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02/28/2007 09:23:42 AM · #8 |
You really should be able to unsubmit because people make mistakes and stuff.
Like for instance; I submitted a picture for the Low Key challenge only to realize that I totally had leaped a big leap over my walls of stupidity. I entered the picture accidentally into the Acronym challenge...
Really dumb, but a silly mistake! |
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02/28/2007 09:23:44 AM · #9 |
IMO I think allowing people to delete their entry after voting has started would be a negative rule. DPChallenge is a learning site. It's very easy to feel as if we are learning when we have an entry that is scoring well but the truth is that we learn more with an entry that scores lower.
Also we would have a site that would be six and above scores because photographers would want to delete their entry just to keep their average high.
Even though our scores are dear to us learning and mentoring should be the drive behind every submission, vote, and comment. Pulling entries just because they are scoring low would undermined the purpose of DPChallenge.
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02/28/2007 09:28:44 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by bergwalters:
You really should be able to unsubmit because people make mistakes and stuff.
Like for instance; I submitted a picture for the Low Key challenge only to realize that I totally had leaped a big leap over my walls of stupidity. I entered the picture accidentally into the Acronym challenge...
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This would be the only reason for me for a self DQ. And I'd do it if I were you.
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02/28/2007 09:29:20 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
It's very easy to feel as if we are learning when we have an entry that is scoring well but the truth is that we learn more with an entry that scores lower.
Even though our scores are dear to us learning and mentoring should be the drive behind every submission, vote, and comment. Pulling entries just because they are scoring low would undermined the purpose of DPChallenge. |
Thank you for the reminder, Scott. I am currently scoring below 4.75 in the Ice challenge, and feeling very despondant; I shall try and learn from the experience, and try and give my photo a brutal self-critique. |
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02/28/2007 09:45:40 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by LindaLee:
@TechnoShroom: Personally, I could see me getting annoyed that I voted on a bunch of photos that were later removed.
Yeah, I thought about that, but I decided that I could live with that.
But, I also thought that I would have the tendency to comment more if there were less entries. Sometimes I want to comment, but I look at a challenge with 400-500 entries and don't even bother because I know I don't have the time to wade through so many. |
I think that many people would wait till the last day to unsubmit so you would still have to vote and comment on just as many photos to in the end have them disappear. |
AH...good point, I hadn't even thought of that! I was thinking more along the lines of... OK, day 1, horrible score, scrap that!...
Honestly, this alone pretty much convinces me that it's not a good idea, 'cause I could see that happening. |
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02/28/2007 09:52:20 AM · #13 |
Linda I couldn't agree with you more.
VotoBooth let's you pull your submission anytime you want - doesn't seem to crumble the foundation of society over there -
In reality, how much "learning" takes place after the first day of voting? I have a 5 in LowKey right now - I get it - y'all don't like it. It's all I really wanted to know. NOBODY is commenting on WHY they don't like it - midrange votes, no comments - I'm done. Let me off this ride please.
After the challenge, how many people even review images past page, say, 4? Or above the last page? So there's 50 images that are looked at - I only look at the last page to feel good about my 8th page finish - there, I said it.
So really, the top 40 I may learn something from - the one I pulled I learned in the first day nobody really liked so I need to rethink that approach, so LOTS of learning still happening here - and people voting on day 2 - 7 don't have to keep beating my dead horse
We would have a streamlined voting process - because people would decide when they had the input, the Learning, they wanted, and withdraw.
Your votes and comments don't have to be "lost" - we could have it so the photo remains on the site with the voting and comments remain intact - everybody wins!
We could have it so the photog's score at time of withdrawal still figured into their overall average. It's a web site folks - flexibility is it's middle name.
You could even have a "big baby" statistic that shows how many challenges the person has withdrawn from - that would show THEM!
Let's do it like the other changes to the site - let's do a front page poll and see what the masses really think - let's have a trial challenge where it's possible to see how many actually withdraw - let's see if civilization crumbles when they do withdraw -
This works on so many levels and I'm always surprised to see how closed people are to it.
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 10:02:37.
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02/28/2007 10:12:41 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
Linda I couldn't agree with you more.
VotoBooth let's you pull your submission anytime you want - doesn't seem to crumble the foundation of society over there -
In reality, how much "learning" takes place after the first day of voting? I have a 5 in LowKey right now - I get it - y'all don't like it. It's all I really wanted to know. NOBODY is commenting on WHY they don't like it - midrange votes, no comments - I'm done. Let me off this ride please.
After the challenge, how many people even review images past page, say, 4? Or above the last page? So there's 50 images that are looked at - I only look at the last page to feel good about my 8th page finish - there, I said it.
So really, the top 40 I may learn something from - the one I pulled I learned in the first day nobody really liked so I need to rethink that approach, so LOTS of learning still happening here - and people voting on day 2 - 7 don't have to keep beating my dead horse
We would have a streamlined voting process - because people would decide when they had the input, the Learning, they wanted, and withdraw.
Your votes and comments don't have to be "lost" - we could have it so the photo remains on the site with the voting and comments remain intact - everybody wins!
We could have it so the photog's score at time of withdrawal still figured into their overall average. It's a web site folks - flexibility is it's middle name.
You could even have a "big baby" statistic that shows how many challenges the person has withdrawn from - that would show THEM!
Let's do it like the other changes to the site - let's do a front page poll and see what the masses really think - let's have a trial challenge where it's possible to see how many actually withdraw - let's see if civilization crumbles when they do withdraw -
This works on so many levels and I'm always surprised to see how closed people are to it. |
I'm not understanding your logic on this.
If I'm wrong please enlighten me. But it sounds to me that the only reason for pulling your submission and not caring if the picture and comments remain on the site is to wash the bad score. If that is the purpose of pulling the picture? If so, wouldn't that be giving you a false average. Would you be apposed to keeping your entries current score and having it averaged into your all time score when you pull the picture?
If you don't want to watch you entry you can just turn off updates in your settings area.
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02/28/2007 10:14:21 AM · #15 |
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02/28/2007 10:15:17 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
Linda I couldn't agree with you more.
VotoBooth let's you pull your submission anytime you want - doesn't seem to crumble the foundation of society over there -
In reality, how much "learning" takes place after the first day of voting? I have a 5 in LowKey right now - I get it - y'all don't like it. It's all I really wanted to know. NOBODY is commenting on WHY they don't like it - midrange votes, no comments - I'm done. Let me off this ride please.
After the challenge, how many people even review images past page, say, 4? Or above the last page? So there's 50 images that are looked at - I only look at the last page to feel good about my 8th page finish - there, I said it.
So really, the top 40 I may learn something from - the one I pulled I learned in the first day nobody really liked so I need to rethink that approach, so LOTS of learning still happening here - and people voting on day 2 - 7 don't have to keep beating my dead horse
We would have a streamlined voting process - because people would decide when they had the input, the Learning, they wanted, and withdraw.
Your votes and comments don't have to be "lost" - we could have it so the photo remains on the site with the voting and comments remain intact - everybody wins!
We could have it so the photog's score at time of withdrawal still figured into their overall average. It's a web site folks - flexibility is it's middle name.
You could even have a "big baby" statistic that shows how many challenges the person has withdrawn from - that would show THEM!
Let's do it like the other changes to the site - let's do a front page poll and see what the masses really think - let's have a trial challenge where it's possible to see how many actually withdraw - let's see if civilization crumbles when they do withdraw -
This works on so many levels and I'm always surprised to see how closed people are to it. |
I have to say that I do agree with this line of thought. And it's especially good to hear that it's being done somewhere else WITHOUT negative results.
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02/28/2007 10:22:23 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
But it sounds to me that the only reason for pulling your submission and not caring if the picture and comments remain on the site is to wash the bad score. If that is the purpose of pulling the picture? |
Read the bold dude - it's bolded for you! :-)
In summary:
If someone decides to pull a photo:
1- The score at time of pulling is calculated into their overall score
2- The photo remains on the site as if it completed the challenge with comments in tact
3- A new section is added to the end of the challenge (a yellow section for the chickens :) ) that would show all those who chose to withdraw
4- A new stat would appear on the profile page showing number of challenges withdrawn
How YOU win:
1- if you vote after the withdrawal - you have fewer photos to vote on!
2- If you place well in the challenge, you still have 400 photos "behind" you in the finish - 400 losers you can feel good about beating! (said tongue in cheek :-)
How YOU lose:
I can't even see one thing to get bent out of shape about in this scenario - really - why would you care if I pull my photo now if I have all that "bad" stuff happen listed above?
I think what I'm advocating here is the ability to further customize a person's DPC experience. If I feel I've gotten enough "learning" I should be able to end it - like college - you pay to learn - but sometimes you just want to cut class and go enjoy the spring weather - y'know?
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 10:23:03.
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02/28/2007 10:25:08 AM · #18 |
| What about the person who gets their first vote, and it's a 9 or a 10? Then they withdraw. You're saying this should be averaged into their score? I think the better pictures would be getting pulled just as fast as the lower end. JMO |
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02/28/2007 10:26:31 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
What about the person who gets their first vote, and it's a 9 or a 10? Then they withdraw. You're saying this should be averaged into their score? I think the better pictures would be getting pulled just as fast as the lower end. JMO |
Who would withdraw a high scorer? And why? |
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02/28/2007 10:27:26 AM · #20 |
and who cares about their overall average that much?
Is there a cash prize for overall score that I'm missing out on?
honestly, if someone wants a really high overall score, and they pull every entry that starts off with an 8 - and they have an overall average of 7.8, but a page of yellow images that have been withdrawn - would you REALLY care?
Wouldn't the yellow section show you that there have been shenanigans afoot?
Or you could just set a rule that you HAVE to have 50 votes before you can withdraw.
See, flexibility - let's not try to shut it down cause you don't like it! Let's see how it can work for everyone. Can't we all just get along?
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 10:33:01.
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02/28/2007 10:31:56 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
and who cares about their overall average that much?
Is there a cash prize for overall score that I'm missing out on? |
Originally posted by LindaLee:
Who would withdraw a high scorer? And why? |
There are plenty who talk about their overall average (not me, I'm quite at the low end).
And of course there is no cash prize, just like there is no real prize for anything on here! It doesn't stop people from cheating (on occasion) to get it.
And people know that their score won't stay at a 9 or 10, why not withdraw one to show that type of score? |
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02/28/2007 10:33:49 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
And people know that their score won't stay at a 9 or 10, why not withdraw one to show that type of score? |
And that hurts you, um, how?
Like I said before
"Or you could just set a rule that you HAVE to have 50 votes before you can withdraw. "
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 10:35:18.
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02/28/2007 10:34:05 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
In reality, how much "learning" takes place after the first day of voting? I have a 5 in LowKey right now - I get it - y'all don't like it. It's all I really wanted to know. NOBODY is commenting on WHY they don't like it - midrange votes, no comments - I'm done. Let me off this ride please.
After the challenge, how many people even review images past page, say, 4? Or above the last page? So there's 50 images that are looked at - I only look at the last page to feel good about my 8th page finish - there, I said it.
So really, the top 40 I may learn something from - the one I pulled I learned in the first day nobody really liked so I need to rethink that approach, so LOTS of learning still happening here - and people voting on day 2 - 7 don't have to keep beating my dead horse
snip... |
This is where I am coming from and I totally agree with these thoughts. |
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02/28/2007 10:36:37 AM · #24 |
It doesn't. I could care less. I've even pulled two photos before. We do have the option, just not on a large scale. I'm just saying why bother if it's going to stay there and you're going to get credit anyway? The two I removed, are removed. I didn't like them, I didn't want the image to remain. That was the whole purpose of removing it.
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 10:37:55. |
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02/28/2007 10:36:55 AM · #25 |
I think that allowing retractions is a good idea, but I would limit the time frame to the first 24 hours of a challenge. After that then the current rules regarding self DQ should apply.
Having the option to retract an entry would be an encouragement for new arrivals to give challenges a try. It would also help reduce the numbers of total images that need to be reviewed and voted on - some of these challenges are getting quite large, and I'm sure that trend will continue for a long time.
I would add a suggestion that challenge results include a folder of "Withdrawn Images". I could imagine a helpful member making it a point to comment on images located there thus increasing the learning / teaching aspect of DPC without making those photographers feel so bad about a low score.
Everyone is different, and some people do take it very very hard when their score is below a certain level. Others don't. I see no harm in giving folks a chance to opt out at the last minute.
BTW, this was a hilarious idea, dk:
Originally posted by digitalknight:
...You could even have a "big baby" statistic that shows how many challenges the person has withdrawn from - that would show THEM!...
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