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02/14/2007 12:47:22 PM · #26 |
For the life of me I can not understand why this in an issue.
options:
1. If you think the title shoehorns the image to fit the challenge, vote accordingly.
2. Don't read the titles if you don't want to.
3. Consider the title part of the presentation and a consideration in your voting, up or down.
Keep the titles.
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02/14/2007 12:49:06 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
For the life of me I can not understand why this in an issue.
options:
1. If you think the title shoehorns the image to fit the challenge, vote accordingly.
2. Don't read the titles if you don't want to.
3. Consider the title part of the presentation and a consideration in your voting, up or down.
Keep the titles. |
Nod nod
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02/14/2007 12:54:08 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
For the life of me I can not understand why this in an issue.
options:
1. If you think the title shoehorns the image to fit the challenge, vote accordingly.
2. Don't read the titles if you don't want to.
3. Consider the title part of the presentation and a consideration in your voting, up or down.
Keep the titles. |
Nod nod |
Nod |
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02/14/2007 12:55:02 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by alfresco:
Originally posted by idnic:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
For the life of me I can not understand why this in an issue.
options:
1. If you think the title shoehorns the image to fit the challenge, vote accordingly.
2. Don't read the titles if you don't want to.
3. Consider the title part of the presentation and a consideration in your voting, up or down.
Keep the titles. |
Nod nod |
You guys quit nodding off. We're having a discussion here.
Nod.
dammit.
Nod |
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02/14/2007 12:56:46 PM · #30 |
I've said it before and I will say it again. These threads leave a funny taste in my mouth. It always comes across to me "I want this, because it will help ME. Change this so I can score better".
As far as the wolf photo is concerned. The photog convince the voters the wolf was having a good laugh. All I have to say about that is: Photography is and always will be about deception. From framing and composition to title the deception must be complete. The wolf pulled it off.
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02/14/2007 01:01:19 PM · #31 |
I've always liked the idea of mixed "media". I think the best and most creative things happen on borders, all possible kinds of borders: between photo and film, film and music, music and sculpture etc.
it doesn't have to make things and art too complicated, but it gives a great ammount of depth.
all the languages (all possible interpretations of the word "language") have exciting histories.
like quotations, reminiscences and assosiations turn a text into a meta text, visual impulses combined with language create a kind of a "meta photo". so exciting!
well, just my opinion
:) |
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02/14/2007 01:02:24 PM · #32 |
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02/14/2007 01:02:38 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Titles used to be above the photos; they were move to below so users who didn't want to read (be influenced by) the titles wouldn't have to. I think that was a logical solution. I personally love to read the titles and if I think a title sucks it does affect my view of the image -- same with any titled piece of art. We should all choose our titles with care. |
Or not at all. IMO the dpc default to apply a title is a secondary & unnecessary function, a handicap & detracts from the primary purpose to simply enter an image to a specific challenge. I think the ability to inscribe an image with a title should never be abandoned, however the necessity to jump hoops not to include one is irritating. |
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02/14/2007 01:04:01 PM · #34 |
it is possible to enter a photo for a challenge without a title.
what's the fuss?
sorry, not relevant.
challenge without titles? ah well. not necesairy for me. sometimes I like the titles. I always read them.
Message edited by author 2007-02-14 13:09:00. |
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02/14/2007 01:04:29 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
For the life of me I can not understand why this in an issue.
options:
1. If you think the title shoehorns the image to fit the challenge, vote accordingly.
2. Don't read the titles if you don't want to.
3. Consider the title part of the presentation and a consideration in your voting, up or down.
Keep the titles. |
I'm a #2...
My opinion:
I don't look at titles unless I'm searching for an excuse to give an image a higher score.
I never fault an image because the title attempts to shoehorn it into the challenge or is just plain lousy. A good image deserves a good score no matter how poorly a photographer choses to title it. It is much the same as I feel about borders.
Message edited by author 2007-02-14 13:05:40.
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02/14/2007 01:04:31 PM · #36 |
| It does seem that some participants use the titles to explain their otherwise incomprehensible images. I would like to see an ocassional challenge without titles. I believe this type challenge would stimulate a better quality of entries as far as subject and composition goes. If the title is necessary to make the entry fit the challenge, then the photographer has not photographically met the challenge. |
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02/14/2007 01:12:29 PM · #37 |
Sheesh, it was just a suggestion to try one titleless challenge. Why not?
I mean, it would be a challenge to communicate purely through the photo. Just like normal challenges that push you to communicate through the photo and the title.
Not "delete all titles" but "try an occasional challenge without titles."
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02/14/2007 01:15:05 PM · #38 |
I think that some people are missing the point of the original suggestion. The suggestion wasn't to remove all titles from all challenges. It was to have an occasional challenge (like once a month) where titles aren't allowed. This isn't to say that there isn't a place for titles. I totally agree. Titles are relevant and can nudge the viewer in the right direction sometimes by simply providing a bit of context.
There are challenge photos on the other hand, that would have a totally different title had they been in a different challenge. (Or even outside of a challenge for that matter).
I think the idea is a good one. I think the suggestion is somewhat akin to the minimal editing rules. Its a specialized rule to put in place for some challenges.
Its a challenge idea like any other challenge idea. If the suggestion had been "we need a bee challenge" no one would be debating this idea.
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02/14/2007 01:16:10 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
It does seem that some participants use the titles to explain their otherwise incomprehensible images. I would like to see an ocassional challenge without titles. I believe this type challenge would stimulate a better quality of entries as far as subject and composition goes. If the title is necessary to make the entry fit the challenge, then the photographer has not photographically met the challenge. |
I would like to see the default changed. Currently it is implied that titles are mandatory, it should be the reverse. |
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02/14/2007 01:21:07 PM · #40 |
MY opinion, for what it's worth, is that DPC already suffers from a bad case of "the obvious". The prevailing mentality seems to be that the challenge topic is an "assignment" to produce a cover photo for a magazine on that topic, basically. By far the majority of the entries in a given challenge represent "obvious" responses to that challenge.
There are a lot of reasons for this; in no particular order, they include —
1. Entries that use the challenge topic as a springboard to a technical exercise (the photographer is working on basic skills, and made no attempt to cerate a more unusual take on the challenge)
2. Lack of imagination in general (very few of us are able to conceptualize and execute like, say,  scalvert or  coley)
3. DPCers have learned that the site is extremely tolerant of the well-executed, banal image and extremely INtolerant of most off-the-wall approaches to the topic
I could go on, but you get the idea.
In any case, for those of us who like to cruise the fringes of topics, seeking obscure connections, metaphorical alignments, and the like, the removal of titles would be a travesty. YOUR "shoehorning" is MY attempt to alert you that I'm approaching the topic from an angle, that I'm using my artistic license.
I never cease to be AMAZED at how fervent some people can get on this subject, as if somehow the very IDEA of "shoehorning" undermines the integrity of the challenge or something. I think that's utterly ridiculous. I don't want to have to look at hundreds of entries that are virtually the same (there are enough of those anyway), I want people to be ENCOURAGED to be more creative, more whimsical, more angular in their approaches to the challenge.
And the bottom line is, if you think the entry doesn't fit, then just give it a low score! Why do you care about the title? If an image that, to you, seems shoehorned in receives a high score or even a ribbon, WHY DO YOU CARE? The voters, as a group, were satisfied. It's very rare for a "real" shoehorn to ribbon anyway. Do you honestly believe your own, personal standards/interpretations are so much better-developed than the group's, that your POV should take precedence?
I tell ya, if I was setting up a "dictatorship of me" to shape this site into what *I* believe, in my great wisdom, that it should be, then the "problem" of shoehorning is way, way down on my list :-)
Robt.
ETA: this is in response to people who are lashing out at titles in general, and shoehorning. It is not intended for the OP, whose original idea was to have an occasional "titleless" challenge. I got no problem with that :-)
Message edited by author 2007-02-14 13:23:29.
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02/14/2007 01:25:00 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by fkahhaleh:
Originally posted by jimmyjazz78:
Hi, I'm new here, but this topic caught my attention. I voted for many photos yesterday and had the experience that many shots didn't fit, or were a real stretch. I found myself doing what RobMcGee suggests, by commenting on the quality, but rating on appropriateness. On the other hand, as Falc says, there are some pictures that would not have made sense to me if it weren't for the title, yet once I read the title i was amazed rather than annoyed. One such entry was Sunshine86's third place "Good" photo, entitled "A Good Laugh": 
It is an amazing shot, and very candid once paired with the title. Maybe the idea should be to open a new "untitled" challenge category, with the same method of theme assignments being used. This way, the bar will be raised for those photographers up to the challenge of letting the picture do the talking...possibly viewed as an "advanced" contest. Just some thoughts people might want to run with... |
Hmmmâ€Â¦. I disagree with what was said here, and I think it is totally the opposite. This is one photo that does not have to do anything with "Good". The title reads "Good laugh", but since when do Wolves laugh, Hyenas do, wolves don't; and this particular wolf may have been yawning; and definitely not laughing.
So here we have an example of a caption that steered voters in a direction which I am not so sure was the right one. |
LOL :P No I am QUITE sure he was laughing, I heard his best friend the Bald Eagle tell him the joke...ALL the animals in the zoo were laughing, you should have seen it!
OH OH had to add this, because TIHADI would NEVER do anything like what he is trying to criticize... 
Message edited by author 2007-02-14 17:15:29. |
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02/14/2007 01:33:02 PM · #42 |
To the OP's original suggestion, I *personally* think that it would be a fun challenge to know up-front that I needed to communicate solely with the image, that no title would be displayed during voting. I think it's a fine idea, and a suggestion that I haven't seen throughout the multi-threaded history of the "significance of the title" arguments. It would have to be done as "Extra Rules" and would require additional coding, though.
With regard to "A Good Laugh," sure, wolves (probably) don't laugh. So what? Its called anthropomorphizing. Attributing human emotions or characteristics to non-human subjects. The result can be a strong image that is greatly enhanced by its title, as this one was. It's not shoehorning, IMO. And believe me, I've shoehorned ;-)
As Robert pointed out, a title often does help the connection to the challenge, by giving cues that the challenge is being approached obliquely, instead of smacking the voter head-on. Again, one man's creative interpretation is another's shoeehorn. |
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02/14/2007 01:36:53 PM · #43 |
| Reminder to all participants to assume good faith in form posts. Personal attacks are not permitted, nor is baiting. THadi's example of the wolf image was in-bounds and on-topic, even if you don't agree with his conclusion... as I personally don't. |
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02/14/2007 01:42:24 PM · #44 |
| kirbic, now it looks like i was cursing him out lol :P |
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02/14/2007 01:44:58 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Sunshine86:
kirbic, now it looks like i was cursing him out lol :P |
You're right... better? |
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02/14/2007 01:48:17 PM · #46 |
yup, ty
BTW, I agree it would be fun to have a specific challenge with added rules for no title. |
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02/14/2007 01:56:18 PM · #47 |
I personally think that the reason that this subject has been brought up again for the 1000th time, is that the site has it backwards on this issue. "Enter Title" is shoved down one's throat at the time of entering a challenge. It is not necessary to do so and there is a method to not enter a title, however the implication to most entrants it is necessary to create one. As others have said - a title often requires some thought.
Kirbic and Bear_Music have provided some good & worthy reasons to create a title, unfortunately the challenge photograph is the primary consideration, and a title is frosting ideally made while the cake is being baked, but it is never applied till the cake is cool.
The continued site default emphasis and endorsement to include titles with a submission is flawed. |
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02/14/2007 02:38:14 PM · #48 |
[quote=kirbic] To the OP's original suggestion, I *personally* think that it would be a fun challenge to know up-front that I needed to communicate solely with the image, that no title would be displayed during voting. I think it's a fine idea, and a suggestion that I haven't seen throughout the multi-threaded history of the "significance of the title" arguments. It would have to be done as "Extra Rules" and would require additional coding, though.
Thank you |
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02/14/2007 02:39:32 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Reminder to all participants to assume good faith in form posts. Personal attacks are not permitted, nor is baiting. THadi's example of the wolf image was in-bounds and on-topic, even if you don't agree with his conclusion... as I personally don't. |
And thank you agian. |
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02/14/2007 03:07:49 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
[quote=scarbrd]
I never fault an image because the title attempts to shoehorn it into the challenge or is just plain lousy. A good image deserves a good score no matter how poorly a photographer choses to title it. It is much the same as I feel about borders. |
What if the image is absolutely fantastic but doesn't meet the challenge at all? What if they have to use a title to try and make it fit. Do you still give them a great score because the image is great. If that's the case, lets just make everything a free study. |
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