Sensitive question - religious - DPChallenge Forums

02/09/2007 04:37:26 PM · #126

Originally posted by EvanH:

I think she's pointing out that the universe does not need to exist for God to exist.

the "she" you're referring to is indeed a he

haha

:)

LOL, sorry about that.

RonB

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

02/09/2007 04:38:18 PM · #127

Originally posted by Matthew:

In order to be "omni"-something, God would have to be able to reach *everything* at all times. God would have to be bigger than the universe, in order to reach out to all parts of it and then to have some kind of additional capability. In order for God to have such a power, he would have to be more complex than the universe. If we need god to explain the universe or any aspect of it, then it begs the question "who made god?" (he is, after all, more complex than the universe, the lesser complexity of which requires the invocation of god). This is the start of an infinite regression.

Consider Gravity. It is OMNI-, that is it exists at all points in the Universe at once; hence, is at least as big as, if not bigger than the universe. Does Gravity have additional capability? I don't know, since no one has ever probed the inside of a black hole.
So, I guess the question then becomes, who made Gravity?
For me, the questions are better phrased as "Is Gravity one of the essences of God?". "Is Light one of the essences of God?". "Is electromagnetism one of the essences of God?". "Is God the 'unified field theory' that Einstein was searching for?"

02/09/2007 04:38:36 PM · #128

Originally posted by EvanH:

So what was there before? So much for the Big Bang theory?

thats a pretty fun thing to think about. pretty hard to grasp the concept of nothing.

Its pretty interesting but in the scheme of things, it really doesn't matter

02/09/2007 04:39:57 PM · #129

Originally posted by Matthew:

Instead of being bigger than the universe, maybe God is the universe. That's an interesting thought.

nova

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 35mm f/1.4L USM

02/09/2007 04:46:57 PM · #130

Originally posted by formerlee:

... How is something created out of nothing? There has to be something there to create something else(science side)

So, did 'God' create matter to create the Big Bang and then the universe or was it divine intervention? I was taught the universe is infinite, so where was 'God' if the universe didn't exist? If he was always there, the universe must have existed?

I am curious, Lee, from whom were you taught that the universe was infinite? I'm pretty much a simpleton, but it is my understanding that science teaches that space and time are finite and for that matter aren't even constant. As for Christianity, Jesus taught that heaven and earth will pass away, but my Word will not pass away.

As for me, it would be much less impressive for the Creator to have created the universe out of something than nothing ;)

02/09/2007 04:56:28 PM · #131

Originally posted by nova:

Originally posted by formerlee:
... How is something created out of nothing? There has to be something there to create something else(science side)

So, did 'God' create matter to create the Big Bang and then the universe or was it divine intervention? I was taught the universe is infinite, so where was 'God' if the universe didn't exist? If he was always there, the universe must have existed?

I am curious, Lee, from whom were you taught that the universe was infinite? I'm pretty much a simpleton, but it is my understanding that science teaches that space and time are finite and for that matter aren't even constant. As for Christianity, Jesus taught that heaven and earth will pass away, but my Word will not pass away.

As for me, it would be much less impressive for the Creator to have created the universe out of something than nothing ;)

Hummm! It might sound stupid, but my science teacher stated this when trying to define the concept of the universe. I believed him absolutely, after all, he was my science teacher! And, no-one has ever put forward a good theory that states how big the universe is, where it starts and where it ends? If the universe has a beginning and an end, where are they? This is the science side again.

As for christianity, many words are uttered by false prophets. Most of the Bible was written 3/4 centuries after the death of 'JC', were they the words spoken at the time, or were they the words of a false prophet, manipulated to fit a doctrine?

02/09/2007 04:59:25 PM · #132

Originally posted by formerlee:

As for christianity, many words are uttered by false prophets. Most of the Bible was written 3/4 centuries after the death of 'JC', were they the words spoken at the time, or were they the words of a false prophet, manipulated to fit a doctrine?

They're the words deemed fit for the masses by the popes of the periods, and all of it was colored by and filtered through the politics and social norms of the times. You basically see what the Vatican wanted you to see.

02/09/2007 05:02:38 PM · #133

02/09/2007 05:04:59 PM · #134

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by formerlee:
As for christianity, many words are uttered by false prophets. Most of the Bible was written 3/4 centuries after the death of 'JC', were they the words spoken at the time, or were they the words of a false prophet, manipulated to fit a doctrine?

They're the words deemed fit for the masses by the popes of the periods, and all of it was colored by and filtered through the politics and social norms of the times. You basically see what the Vatican wanted you to see.

I totally agree. I would love to believe in something as defined as christianity, but cannot. Instead I have looked into more ancient belief systems that I feel fit my life. I know people suddenly convert when they have a crisis in their lives. I have battled cancer for two years, but still believe in the Pagan/Native American ways.

02/09/2007 05:05:28 PM · #135

Hummm! It might sound stupid, but my science teacher stated this when trying to define the concept of the universe. I believed him absolutely, after all, he was my science teacher!

If you believed your science teacher 500 years ago when he told you our solar system is the only solar system, you'd be believing something that is false

In another 500 years I'm sure many things written in our text books will be proven false

Message edited by author 2007-02-09 17:05:46.

nova

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 35mm f/1.4L USM

02/09/2007 05:05:29 PM · #136

Originally posted by formerlee:

Makes perfect sense to me, especially since your Science Teacher said so! But I'm being serious when I say that I'm not too smart about such things... anyone out there with a strong background in physics etc. that can help me out with this subject? Am I mischaracterizing or misunderstanding the theory of relativity and it's consequences? I thought that time, as constant as it seems in our daily life, was actually variable or relative,and that space has similar variable properties. We all know that the universe is constantly expanding according to Big Bang theory... expanding into WHAT?

Nevermind the religious overtones up to now. I'm just looking for information. Feel free to correct or confirm my understanding.

02/09/2007 05:10:29 PM · #137

Originally posted by EvanH:

I believe in a Creator, I also believe my 'Gods' are all around me all the time. My church is all around me, I just look at the sky, the trees the world around me, this is my church! I take what I need and give back to the spirits. I believe in a Mother Earth, my font, my giver...but I give back what I take. I respect all things. My beliefs encompass all, no matter what their title, colour or creed. If, when I meet my maker, I was wrong, then I have harmed no-one.

Message edited by author 2007-02-09 17:11:41.

02/09/2007 05:20:00 PM · #138

It does to me, this is why when I was about 19 I gave up on Christian ideas and spent the rest of my years so far looking at other belief systems, and also lost a lot of faith in science. How is something created out of nothing? There has to be something there to create something else(science side)

So, did 'God' create matter to create the Big Bang and then the universe or was it divine intervention? I was taught the universe is infinite, so where was 'God' if the universe didn't exist? If he was always there, the universe must have existed?

i see that your struggling with these questions, but lets pretend that God is real and Jesus is the way just for a second.

If its true and you spend your life struggling with a question that really has no relevance to the religion and that your never really gonna find the answer to (like what was there before the earth), then you're really just getting no where at all.

I believe in a Creator, I also believe my 'Gods' are all around me all the time. My church is all around me, I just look at the sky, the trees the world around me, this is my church! I take what I need and give back to the spirits. I believe in a Mother Earth, my font, my giver...but I give back what I take. I respect all things. My beliefs encompass all, no matter what their title, colour or creed. If, when I meet my maker, I was wrong, then I have harmed no-one.

okk...

im not really sure how that is a response to my response haha

the reason many people, most probably including christians, try to convert people or tell them about Jesus, is because they want them to be saved.

if you sit down and really REALLY think hard about forever, its scary. This is the main reason a lot of people come to faith. It was for me a little bit, but after you find Jesus you find a whole lot more than salvation.

anyways, what im getting at is that I think people get very distracted and pulled away from Jesus. Especially in these times where we have so many scientific/philosphical views and other religions fogging it up.

You say that when you die and meet your creator and it is Jesus, you won't be harming anyone...

thats true, but what about you?

an eternity is a long longgg time. not even a time technically but our minds can't wrap around that concept.

but the reason you find so many christians spreading the word of Jesus, whether it may offend some or not, is because they want you to have what they have.

salvation.

Message edited by author 2007-02-09 17:20:21.

RonB

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

02/09/2007 05:22:04 PM · #139

Originally posted by Matthew:

Hey - I understand what os meant by "science" - and I agree that the first is philosophical (I am not sure how it could be otherwise - so perhaps I agree with you there). However, without some further proof that would skew the odds, my second argument is a statistical argument (which, I believe, comes within the concept of science). If you start with an unfounded belief, then there is no more chance of it being correct than any other unfounded belief - they are all equally unlikely, and since there is an infinite number of possible unfounded beliefs, they are all almost infinitely unlikely.

Neither the Big Bang nor Intelligent Design is an "unfounded" belief. Lee Strobel shows quite clearly the foundation of belief in ID. Just because you do not choose to believe the arguments presented for ID does not make it an "unfounded" belief any more than my choosing to not believe the arguments for the big bang makes it an "unfounded" belief.

Originally posted by Matthew:

The big bang theory is different because there is evidence (and reasonably strong evidence at that) as to how it happened. It is not based on unfounded belief.

You're right - the big bang theory IS different. But not for the reasons you state. The big bang theory only attempts to explain what is and how it got here. It offers NO explanation of why the universe works the way it does, or what it was or where it came from prior to the moment of origin. Intelligent Design, on the other hand, explains both the origin of the universe and why it works the way it does ( hint: it was designed and put into motion by [an] intelligent designer(s)).

Originally posted by Matthew:

However, unless there is some way to see past it (which seems unlikely), then we will not know what came before/outside it (if that is a meaningful question). God is just as likely as any other supposition.

With God, we CAN see what came before/outside the universe. The origins are detailed in the Bible. It even explains how visible matter was created ( hint: it was created from dark matter ).

Originally posted by Matthew:

The almost infinitely complex god complication only really arises if you suppose some element of "omni-something" - which most religions do, but most sciences do not.

Are you saying that science does NOT support the supposition that gravity is omnipresent in the universe? That light is not omnipresent in the universe? That electromagnetism is not omnipresent in the universe? If so, then how can we possibly hope to measure the "echo of the big bang" that you referred to earlier?

Message edited by author 2007-02-09 17:25:54.

02/09/2007 05:41:16 PM · #140

Originally posted by formerlee:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by formerlee:
As for christianity, many words are uttered by false prophets. Most of the Bible was written 3/4 centuries after the death of 'JC', were they the words spoken at the time, or were they the words of a false prophet, manipulated to fit a doctrine?

They're the words deemed fit for the masses by the popes of the periods, and all of it was colored by and filtered through the politics and social norms of the times. You basically see what the Vatican wanted you to see.

I totally agree. I would love to believe in something as defined as christianity, but cannot. Instead I have looked into more ancient belief systems that I feel fit my life. I know people suddenly convert when they have a crisis in their lives. I have battled cancer for two years, but still believe in the Pagan/Native American ways.

I think that's fine. I'm Catholic, but I'm also a realist about faith. Most Catholics I know aren't terribly literal about anything in the Bible and have some of the most liberal views with regards to its teachings - which is funny considering that we have a reputation for being totally buttoned up and repressed. I think that as long as you (figurative, not specifically you) should be allowed to believe whatever you like, so long as it's not pushed upon anyone else or hurting anyone else to do so.

Truthfully, I cringe whenever the more evangelical sects try to recruit recruit recruit and "save" people. I figure if someone wants to be a Christian, they will be, and any pressure you put on them to do it is going to make any resulting conversion disgenuine. Believe because you want to believe, not because of peer pressure. I also object to proselytization because it espouses the idea that there is only one true way, a concept with which I completely, wholeheartedly disagree. My way is just as good as yours, and I wholly resent being told otherwise.

Personally, I explored a lot of different earthy religions in college, and later delved a bit into Buddhism, and I took a lot away with me from all of them, and I feel as though they've deepened and strengthened my catholicism - even though I'm not what they call "practicing". I feel like the quality of my "worship" is much greater when I'm out in nature with my camera experiencing the awe of the mountains and wildflowers than it is kneeling in a badly dated church, and I don't feel like God is going to smite me for that. I feel as though there are little pieces of "truth" in everything. Involve God in your life to whatever degree you like - there's no one right answer, and no sense in arguing about it, really.

Another thing:
To me, the Muslim extremists you see blowing up cafes in Iraq and wherever aren't true Muslims, since true Islam as I understand it is actually a very peaceful religion - look at how many lives Islam turned around in the 1960s, a lot of out of control young black men going to prison and coming out converted and turning into good upstanding members of society (this was actually discussed a lot in a black literature class I took way back). Look at Senator Ellison (I think that's the name) and tell me he isn't a man of peace! Those other folks out there with the bombs are brainwashed, psychotic, or both - but not true Muslims, no matter what they think.

Message edited by author 2007-02-09 17:45:56.

02/09/2007 05:48:49 PM · #141

Involve God in your life to whatever degree you like - there's no one right answer, and no sense in arguing about it, really.

what if that isn't correct though? what if that isn't the way?

i see a lot of people kind of making up their own way into heaven.

doesn't make a lot of sense.

02/09/2007 05:50:36 PM · #142

Originally posted by EvanH:

And how do you know you have the right way? You don't. No matter what you claim, you cannot positively 100% know you are right. If you do, then you're deluded, because even your pastor will probably agree with me if pressed a bit. So essentially, your way is no better or worse than mine. The only difference is that I admit to the possibility and think people should be free to make up their own minds on the matter.

Honestly, do you really think that God is going to condemn the Dalai Lama to hell? I mean, he hasn't come to Jesus, after all. He hasn't been saved... never mind that he's adored the world over for his dedication to good and peace. Is he making it up too? Is he wrong? (I know this analogy isn't perfect, since Buddhism doesn't believe in heaven, so no need to point it out - but is this really the sort of man who isn't going to make it into heaven by Christian standards? C'mon...)

Keep your faith. Keep to the way you think is right. I'll keep to the way I think is right. As I said, no sense in arguing it when no one really does know the truth.

Message edited by author 2007-02-09 17:55:04.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

02/09/2007 05:56:58 PM · #143

Involve God in your life to whatever degree you like - there's no one right answer, and no sense in arguing about it, really.

what if that isn't correct though? what if that isn't the way?

i see a lot of people kind of making up their own way into heaven.

doesn't make a lot of sense.

And how do you know you have the right way? You don't. No matter what you claim, you cannot positively 100% know you are right. If you do, then you're deluded, because even your pastor will probably agree with me if pressed a bit. So essentially, your way is no better or worse than mine. The only difference is that I admit to the possibility and think people should be free to make up their own minds on the matter.

Keep your faith. Keep to the way you think is right. I'll keep to the way I think is right. As I said, no sense in arguing it when no one really does know the truth.

im not arguing. i thought we were having a conversation haha. im not sure why people get so offended over the matter.

i'm not sure why you think my pastor would agree that Jesus is not the way, when clearly he believes Jesus is the way haha.

and i never said i knew the way. i THINK i know the way, and i truly believe the way I think is correct, but i don't have evidence to support the fact 100%

im just stating things that open up on the conversation.

like...

if everyone makes up their own way into heaven...that doens't really make a lot of sense if you believe the word of God is true.

UNCLEBRO

Canon EOS-30D

02/09/2007 06:00:12 PM · #144

I've read most of this thread, so forgive me if this has been asked.

I see people asking what was before the "big bang" and the start of the universe, as it had to have been made from something.

But has anyone asked who made god, where did god come from or what was before god?

I know the "cop-out" answer is that "god has always existed".

But why can't the other be true and say that the universe has always been in existence and always will be.
And therefore the question of what was before the big bang becomes moot.
Maybe the oscillating universe theory is true.?

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II

02/09/2007 06:04:23 PM · #145

Muppet

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

02/09/2007 06:15:42 PM · #146

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Honestly, do you really think that God is going to condemn the Dalai Lama to hell? I mean, he hasn't come to Jesus, after all. He hasn't been saved... never mind that he's adored the world over for his dedication to good and peace. Is he making it up too? Is he wrong? (I know this analogy isn't perfect, since Buddhism doesn't believe in heaven, so no need to point it out - but is this really the sort of man who isn't going to make it into heaven by Christian standards? C'mon...

i have two verses here for you, just to emphasize the "Christian standars":

John 3:16; For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 14:6; Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

that said, i should probably leave this forum before i get mauled for what others would assume is bashing on their beliefs. just putting in my two cents! :-)

edit: God won't condemn him, but rather because the dahli lama didn't accept Him, the dahli lama accepted the alternative

Message edited by author 2007-02-09 18:21:04.

02/09/2007 06:16:36 PM · #147

Originally posted by UNCLEBRO:

It does beg the question, doesn't it? This why faith and science aren't mutually exclusive.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

02/09/2007 06:19:19 PM · #148

UNCLEBRO

Canon EOS-30D

02/09/2007 06:20:16 PM · #149

Originally posted by EvanH:

it still doesn't push God out of the picture

of course it doesn't.

But if god has always been in existence, then can't the universe have always been in existence too?

David Ey