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 02/05/2007 06:27:45 PM · #51
Originally posted by posthumous:
One step at a time.


Yep. I tried two stepping. It was disastrous.

02/05/2007 06:30:17 PM · #52
I gotta agree with you ...

And honestly there are some agendas going on over at BET that I do not find "helpful" either ...

But ... I stand by my belief that at the core I find nothing wrong with the CONCEPT of BET... I think though the name is rather polorizing.

02/05/2007 06:31:01 PM · #53
Originally posted by kdkaboom:
Originally posted by posthumous:
One step at a time.


Yep. I tried two stepping. It was disastrous.


ROFL ... so did I ... at a CW bar... wow that was wild
02/05/2007 06:33:15 PM · #54
Originally posted by nomad469:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
The only thing more laughable than expecting history to be honestly documented is expecting anyone short of university history majors to have the time and interest to study it in the detail required to really derive any meaning from it.

Elementary and High School history classes are a 'best of' at best. Sounds to me like you just want more of the highlights to include one color or another. What's the point really.


Wrong answer... the point is if history was taught "without" the bias of one group over another BHM would not be needed.

I do not in any mannor say highlight one group over another just teach correct history not PC history

It may be the "best of" but what is being taught is not the correct version of the "best of"


Again then, what is it you want changed? Kids are given a highlight of historical events. So which events do they get taught? What criteria do you use to pick and choose? Some group of events that all reinforce an overarching ideal (eg, democracy and the American way triumphs in the end)? Or do you just sit down and take a semester's worth of time and divide it equally amongst asian, black, hispanic, european, 'american', etc events to make sure no one feels left out?

Here kids, as you can see we've now learned that at one time or another people with various colored skin did something notable throughout the course of human history.

I have to ask again, what is the point?

As I said already, focusing people on the acheivments of those who came before them who just happened to share the same skin color, religion, nationality, or what have you accomplishes nothing. The idea that should be given to people is that DESPITE their skin color, religion, or nationality they can make of their lives what they will and affect their world accordingly.

When you get out in the real world, no one cares (unless obligated to by legal mandate) what the rest of your race did before you arrived. You are judged on your own merits.

02/05/2007 06:35:56 PM · #55


Now, I am going to rant on odd thing. I don't usually like quotas, etc. But I do like a real fair balance. One thing in recent times has irked me with regards to race, and african-american relations and I am amazed that I've not heard a thing.

The new Battlestar Galactica series. I was a fan as a kid of the original. For raw fun I still enjoy the original more. But how did we go from a 1970's show like the original that featured a black as the Vice-Commander "Colonel Tigh" and one of the most popular secondary characters, the fighter pilot "Boomer".

Now fast forward 25 yrs or so into the next century. There are now supposed to be less taboo than there was then. Most shows today are fairly racially balanced. So what happens with the new Battlestar Galactica?

Not a single major character is black. A few minor characters had very minute screen presence. It wasn't until season three that the show raised one of the background characters to secondary status.

It just feels weird and unrealistic to me. Very similar to when I've visited regions or schools that had 100% white populations. Having always lived in multi-cultural areas I actual find a monoform ethnic base (be it church, school, city, whatever) to be unnerving. It just feels less natural. I am used to european, black, asian, hispanic, etc. all together.

But to me, Battlestar Galactica just re-inforced my feelings that we've taken steps backwards and that all this political correctness has left mandates but pushed back the knitting of hearts.

The truth is...we all need to forgive, not forget because we don't want to let the same mistakes re-occur. People talk about reperations for slavery. Okay, there is only one reperation for slavery that I am willing to make...that is as a human being, to STOMP IT OUT.

If this nation is to make reperartions for American Slavery. Let it make those reperations by dictating that whatever x billions of dollars should be used to stop slavery worldwide. In north Africa where slavery goes on in Sudan and elsewhere. Sex slavery, especially common in asia. Chinese slavery in the U.S. (yes, many of those you buy your Chinese take-out from are indebted servants/slaves - they sold themselves to get to the United States so their children would be free).

This IMHO would be the truest apology America could give to any man, woman or child who lived their life as a slave in this nation. The knowledge that we've learned from the mistake and endeavor to stamp out slavery where ever it resides and set the captives free.

02/05/2007 06:50:59 PM · #56
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Originally posted by nomad469:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
The only thing more laughable than expecting history to be honestly documented is expecting anyone short of university history majors to have the time and interest to study it in the detail required to really derive any meaning from it.

Elementary and High School history classes are a 'best of' at best. Sounds to me like you just want more of the highlights to include one color or another. What's the point really.


Wrong answer... the point is if history was taught "without" the bias of one group over another BHM would not be needed.

I do not in any mannor say highlight one group over another just teach correct history not PC history

It may be the "best of" but what is being taught is not the correct version of the "best of"


Again then, what is it you want changed? Kids are given a highlight of historical events. So which events do they get taught? What criteria do you use to pick and choose? Some group of events that all reinforce an overarching ideal (eg, democracy and the American way triumphs in the end)? Or do you just sit down and take a semester's worth of time and divide it equally amongst asian, black, hispanic, european, 'american', etc events to make sure no one feels left out?

Here kids, as you can see we've now learned that at one time or another people with various colored skin did something notable throughout the course of human history.

I have to ask again, what is the point?

As I said already, focusing people on the acheivments of those who came before them who just happened to share the same skin color, religion, nationality, or what have you accomplishes nothing. The idea that should be given to people is that DESPITE their skin color, religion, or nationality they can make of their lives what they will and affect their world accordingly.

When you get out in the real world, no one cares (unless obligated to by legal mandate) what the rest of your race did before you arrived. You are judged on your own merits.


So sad that we have to go here BUT

Originally posted by routerguy666:
When you get out in the real world, no one cares (unless obligated to by legal mandate) what the rest of your race did before you arrived. You are judged on your own merits.


BS... Yeah I dont like that but yeah they DO care...and YES you are PRE judged when you walk through the door to some extent. We all are...

Originally posted by routerguy666:
The idea that should be given to people is that DESPITE their skin color, religion, or nationality they can make of their lives what they will and affect their world accordingly.


I agree fully ... We are all freaking Americans ... I wish I could get that through some people's thick skull

Originally posted by routerguy666:
As I said already, focusing people on the acheivments of those who came before them who just happened to share the same skin color, religion, nationality, or what have you accomplishes nothing.


Then we should not read bible stories... because it accomplishes nothing ...

Originally posted by routerguy666:
Again then, what is it you want changed? Kids are given a highlight of historical events. So which events do they get taught? What criteria do you use to pick and choose? Some group of events that all reinforce an overarching ideal (eg, democracy and the American way triumphs in the end)? Or do you just sit down and take a semester's worth of time and divide it equally amongst asian, black, hispanic, european, 'american', etc events to make sure no one feels left out?


You are attempting to beat something in that I never said... I said teach CORRECT history not PC History...teach it COLORBLIND but teach it correctly not made up BS that trys to always make one side always just.


02/05/2007 06:54:47 PM · #57
Originally posted by theSaj:

The truth is...we all need to forgive, not forget because we don't want to let the same mistakes re-occur. People talk about reperations for slavery. Okay, there is only one reperation for slavery that I am willing to make...that is as a human being, to STOMP IT OUT.

If this nation is to make reperartions for American Slavery. Let it make those reperations by dictating that whatever x billions of dollars should be used to stop slavery worldwide. In north Africa where slavery goes on in Sudan and elsewhere. Sex slavery, especially common in asia. Chinese slavery in the U.S. (yes, many of those you buy your Chinese take-out from are indebted servants/slaves - they sold themselves to get to the United States so their children would be free).

This IMHO would be the truest apology America could give to any man, woman or child who lived their life as a slave in this nation. The knowledge that we've learned from the mistake and endeavor to stamp out slavery where ever it resides and set the captives free.


Next time I go to Mystic I am going to stop by NH and buy you a beer !
 02/05/2007 07:06:38 PM · #58
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by bigalpha:

In order to stop the division of America, I feel that BET and BHM and all that jazz is bad. It's dividing certain people by race; what we don't want to happen.


Hey, I like Jazz.

:P

But to go on, I think what you're saying is this. There's "Country Music Television" (white hick), "Lifetime" (women), "SciFi" (geek), "BET" (black).

It doesn't really fit. This then forces me to ask "well, what is 'black entertainment'" However, if I as a white man were to take any answer given and then go say "such and such is black entertainment" I would find myself labelled as a racist.

It is not fair to put someone in an untenable situation in which they have to walk on egg shells to avoid being demonized.

Hey, if it was the "Rythm and Soul" station focusing R&B, Soul, Funk music, etc. Then I'd know what it is. Perhaps "Urban" is a better description. If that is what they're focusing on. As it is BET is designed to be an unknowable/unapproachable entity by it's title. Which is a shame because that unknowing, unapproachableness, compounded by fear becomes the heartbeat of the racial divide.

But even still, it becomes too easy to declare a style exclusive to an ethnicity and then further divide.

The idea is to be inclusive while maintaining out ethnic influences so that they all add flavor to the "stew".

:)


Yeah, pretty much. The only thing about TV channels that cater to a specific genre; i.e. CMT, Lifetime, SciFi, MTV -- they don't base their channel on RACE; they base it on genre. Does that make sense? That's the thing that I don't like about BET. It's geared towards black people -- it's not geared towards R&B/Rap music; know what I mean?

I know that there are always cultural differences between any race of people. That's cool; it's what makes the world go around, and I enjoy that. I just don't like it when things are done based on race.

02/05/2007 07:12:05 PM · #59
Originally posted by "nomad469":
I agree fully ... We are all freaking Americans ... I wish I could get that through some people's thick skull


I so so agree...

And you just gave me an idea. I wonder if we started a movement to add under race/ethnicity "American" (not native-american) just plain old "U.S. American".

It'd be an alternative for those who want to see us unify instead of dividing. In truth, as horrifying as this sounds, that was one aspect of 9-11 I so loved. It was like for a few weeks I saw many of the racial barriers that divide us dropped and everybody just embracing that they were Americans.

Why is it, that it takes such a horror to unite us past our blinders?

Originally posted by "nomad469:
Mystic & NH


Just give me a head's up, because 6 months ago I moved to York, Pennsylvannia after marrying this beautiful girl who for whatever reason fell in love with a silly goof like me.

:)

I am curious, you mention Mystic. And in your profile there is a photo that I presume is of you in front of a pair of wooden barrels in what looks to be almost 17th/18th century garb.

Now I'm curious. Do you do re-enactments? I see you're in Texas so to be familiar with Mystic would lean me toward thinking you've got an interest in sailing. Particularly the days when the ships were made of wood and the men were made of steel. ;)

I used to crew a 90ft schooner out of New Haven. And went to a high school that actually built boats. (In fact, several years after I graduated students from my school assisted in the building of the Armistad replica.) So I have a fondness for old wooden ships. :)

BTW,...if you're in NH there is a bar called Bar that has the Bru Pub (micro brew pub). Their "Ambar Ale" and "Damn Good Stout" are both quite good.

:)
 02/05/2007 09:39:14 PM · #60
Originally posted by thesaj:

And you just gave me an idea. I wonder if we started a movement to add under race/ethnicity "American" (not native-american) just plain old "U.S. American".


Best thing I've ever heard man. Damn good idea.

Message edited by author 2007-02-05 21:47:05.
 02/05/2007 11:46:48 PM · #61
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by "nomad469":
I agree fully ... We are all freaking Americans ... I wish I could get that through some people's thick skull


I so so agree...

And you just gave me an idea. I wonder if we started a movement to add under race/ethnicity "American" (not native-american) just plain old "U.S. American".

It'd be an alternative for those who want to see us unify instead of dividing. In truth, as horrifying as this sounds, that was one aspect of 9-11 I so loved. It was like for a few weeks I saw many of the racial barriers that divide us dropped and everybody just embracing that they were Americans.

Why is it, that it takes such a horror to unite us past our blinders?

Originally posted by "nomad469:
Mystic & NH


Just give me a head's up, because 6 months ago I moved to York, Pennsylvannia after marrying this beautiful girl who for whatever reason fell in love with a silly goof like me.

:)

I am curious, you mention Mystic. And in your profile there is a photo that I presume is of you in front of a pair of wooden barrels in what looks to be almost 17th/18th century garb.

Now I'm curious. Do you do re-enactments? I see you're in Texas so to be familiar with Mystic would lean me toward thinking you've got an interest in sailing. Particularly the days when the ships were made of wood and the men were made of steel. ;)

I used to crew a 90ft schooner out of New Haven. And went to a high school that actually built boats. (In fact, several years after I graduated students from my school assisted in the building of the Armistad replica.) So I have a fondness for old wooden ships. :)

BTW,...if you're in NH there is a bar called Bar that has the Bru Pub (micro brew pub). Their "Ambar Ale" and "Damn Good Stout" are both quite good.

:)


Yeah ... I grew up pretty much on the Chesapeake Bay (actually DC but was at Sandy point every time I could get a chance) ... I lived in OC and Cape May for a while...

And I have done my share of sailing... Mystic is one of my favorite places on the planet! Been ther more times than I could count...
On the reinactments ... no not really but I have told a tall tale or two and a ren faire here and there

Bar in NH rings a bell it has been there for a while hasn't it?

And dont get me started about York and some of the Amish baking that I have gotten in between there and Lancaster (yummy stuff)

Dave

02/06/2007 02:44:14 AM · #62
I am amazed this thread has held together, albeit after a rocky start. I always like to think that the sooner we all get over the past, while still learning from it, the better off we will all be.

On most of the issues brought up, this is where I am at:
BET - NO
African American - NO (as mentioned, it is innacurate much of the time)
Rewrite the history books? - I am ok with adding in the inclusion of contributions that people of all races (and genders) have made, but I am not for tearing down foundations. There seems to be a tendency to swing the pendulum in the opposite direction, to the extreme to "make up" for inaccurate characterizations of any given group - black, white, native, etc. Not useful, IMO, and if anything, it serves to create greater anomosity and excuses and serves no productive purpose.

My background relative to race: My brother in law is black. Divorced now, but I have a niece who is mixed. My wife grew up in Flint, MI in the 60's, went to almost all black school and was beaten, harassed and threatened on a daily basis for being white. I grew up in mostly white environment, but the few black people in my high school were almost treated like celebrities - at least by fellow students. They may have gotten stares or something out and about in white suburbia for all I know, but they never got beat up that I can recall.

I spent 10 years in the Navy, had black friends, roommates, bosses, coworkers - I got to where I couldn't believe any racism really existed, although I know it did. One observation I made while serving onboard a Destroyer for 3 years - at mealtime, most everyone that worked together tended to sit together - i.e. us techie types, the deck types, gunners, etc. BUT, most (like 99%) of the black crewmembers staked out their own table where they all sat together regardless of what dept they worked in. And this is not meant to be a racial stereotype of any kind, but they were by far, the loudest group in the galley. One time, when there were no seats available in the area I normally sat, I just plopped down at "their" table - I really didn't even think about it frankly. The silence was deafening. But only for a few seconds, then we all just carried on - no problem. Seemed like self-imposed segregation to me and nobody ever talked about it.

I don't have any good answers, but am encouraged by the responses in this thread.

As a related side note, I heard Bush was criticized by Black leaders today because he said Barak Obama was "articulate" - so just so the rest of you white folks know, the "a" word is also off limits.
 02/06/2007 03:28:30 AM · #63
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
As a related side note, I heard Bush was criticized by Black leaders today because he said Barak Obama was "articulate" - so just so the rest of you white folks know, the "a" word is also off limits.


Articulate being the "a" word? If it is, maybe it's late, maybe it's the hydrocodone but I don't see how being articulate is not good thing?
 02/06/2007 03:33:08 AM · #64
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
As a related side note, I heard Bush was criticized by Black leaders today because he said Barak Obama was "articulate" - so just so the rest of you white folks know, the "a" word is also off limits.


Articulate being the "a" word? If it is, maybe it's late, maybe it's the hydrocodone but I don't see how being articulate is not good thing?

Neither do I.

It's a minefield out there. :/
 02/06/2007 08:38:58 AM · #65
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
As a related side note, I heard Bush was criticized by Black leaders today because he said Barak Obama was "articulate" - so just so the rest of you white folks know, the "a" word is also off limits.


Articulate being the "a" word? If it is, maybe it's late, maybe it's the hydrocodone but I don't see how being articulate is not good thing?

Neither do I.

It's a minefield out there. :/


Which I believe was the kind of thing that started this thread to begin with.

BTW, having been raised by a very compassionate mother who adamantly instilled in her children that EVERYONE was equal, I attended Junior High (in Flint Mi) with a very "mixed" student body, during that most tumultuous time (the late 60's). Unfortunately for me, not all the other students were taught the same "all are equal" in their homes and subsequently a very rude awakening came my way when I discovered that all are not equal. The "blacks" were the most racist, with some sections of the school very risky for "non-blacks". The students pan handling in the cafeteria, or the ones stealing items off your lunch tray were the bullies that I'm sure are in every school. However, in this school (in Flint Mi) they were black. In High school (in Flint Mi) it was the same. College was very different (in Flint MI) with a true liberal sense about it and much anti-war protesting/free love/everyone is your brother mindset. The work force (in Flint Mi) has been a true education on the scope of how different groups are treated differently. Although I have strived my entire life to uphold the ideals that my mother taught me, life's realities have been much different (in Flint Mi).
 02/06/2007 10:26:08 AM · #66
Originally posted by "nomad469":
Bar in NH rings a bell it has been there for a while hasn't it?


I think Bar & Bru Room have been there for about a decade or so now. Maybe longer.

I've only been in York for about 6 months. Haven't encountered much Amish. I think they're more over in Lancaster.

Okay, so you grew up in the DC/Chesepeak Bay area. How did you wind up in Arlington, Texas?

Originally posted by "Art Roflmao":
I am amazed this thread has held together, albeit after a rocky start. I always like to think that the sooner we all get over the past, while still learning from it, the better off we will all be.


As long as we learn from it and don't repeat it.

Originally posted by "Art Roflmao":

As a related side note, I heard Bush was criticized by Black leaders today because he said Barak Obama was "articulate" - so just so the rest of you white folks know, the "a" word is also off limits.


I can hear Bush fuming to Laura at home. "I !@#$% call the guy articulate and am labelled a racist. I'm called inarticulate all the time. So the fact that I envy the Barack's ability to be articulate and be a good communicator instead of mashing words like I do makes me racist."

I remember reading an article on the whole Live8 concert and the guy organizing heard a bunch of the musicians trashing President Bush. He told them to stop, he didn't want to hear any of it because President Bush has done more for Africa and AIDS in Africa than any prior U.S. president. And has called for even more support.

02/06/2007 10:41:06 AM · #67
Well, I'm pretty glad that there are some other people that can see where I'm coming from. At first, I was thinking maybe I was a racist, lol.

I kinda wish we could go back to (immediate) post-9/11 time. Boy, did we have a real America again. Shame, though, that it takes something like a terrorist attack for it to happen.
 02/11/2007 04:37:56 AM · #68
Originally posted by bigalpha:
No, of course not.

But, if I started WET (White entertainment Channel) I'd be a racist. Or if I wanted White History month; I'd be a racist.

Things like BET and Black History Month only breed division in our country.

Really pisses me off.


I don't think you're a racist bigalpha... maybe just a little ignorant. Or perhaps you're just looking at things from a present prespective. I don't think you've ever really asked yourself why there is even a Black History Month or how it got started. You haven't asked, "why is there a BET? Why did anyone feel a need to have such a station?"

People these days are often victims of not using their brain long enough to seek out the real answers to their own questions. Most people have enough trouble dealing with the issues of their own lives than to seek out the vast and the simple questions that creep up in our minds. Instead of being pissed off and pointing fingers about divisions and their causes Big Al, do a simple google search: Reason Black History Month. I'm sure you'll come up with something (something = 8,930,000 results). I'm sure in that something the answer will come through. BUT, in case you don't have the time I'll give you the short and sweet version of the answers to the questions you didn't ask.

****

Contrary to popular belief, BHM is in February not because it is the shortest month of the year but, because of the tremendous number of African-American pioneers and institutions born in this month (from W.E.B. Du Bois and Langston Hughes to the NAACP and the first Pan African Congress). The father of black history was Dr. Carter G. Woodson. Dr. Woodson didn't graduate high school until he was 22 years old. However, he recieved his Ph.D. from Harvard in 1912, becoming the second African-American to do so.

Dr. Woodson was convinced that the role of black people in America was being ignored and/or misrepresented historically. He made it his mission to educate America about the accomplishments of black Americans.

"In 1915, Woodson founded the Association for the Study of Negro Life and History. He realized the need for special research into the black American's life and history. The association began pressing for a âNegro History Weekâ as a way to explore the contributions of African Americans.

This dream became reality in 1926. In 1976, the renamed Association for the Study of Afro-American Life and History expanded Black History Week into Black History Month.

In his book âThe Mis-Education of the Negro,â Woodson wrote: âWhen you control a man's thinking you do not have to worry about his actions. When you control a man's thinking you do not have to worry about his actions. You do not have to tell him not to stand here or go yonder. He will find his 'proper place' and will stay in it. You do not need to send him to the back door. He will go without being told. In fact, if there is no back door, he will cut one for his special benefit. His education makes it necessary.â

Woodson fought for the education of black people and the celebration of black culture. His idea of taking time to acknowledge blacks' accomplishments is as relevant today as it was 70 years ago." (By Darrell Bowling MSNBC Updated: 6:04 p.m. CT Feb 1, 2006)

As far as BET is concerned... it was originally started by Robert L. Johnson on January 25, 1980 (hmm... a few days shy of being in February). It started out as a weekly, Friday night, 2 hour block of programming on USA Network from 11pm to 1am EST in order to create an outlet for an untapped market in the cable industry: African-Americans. This was not a prime time slot but, over the next couple of years it gained a great amount of popularity. In October of 1983, the Home Box Office (HBO) gave additional funding to BET which they used to create a 24 hour schedule with a veiwership of 7.6 million cable subsribers.

Today, BET has grown beyond the hip-hop lifestyle and R&B music videos. But, if you were not aware the hip-hop lifestyle alone represents all persons... not just black americans. Yet, BET still devotes the bulk of its energy to black American interests (like preventing the spread of HIV/AIDs in the African-American community and raising over $11 million dollars in a relief concert for Hurricane Katrina survivors).

Big Al, you may not feel that there is a need for a things like Black History Month because you know so much about black history... and you may feel that stations like BET are no longer relevant in American society and only serve to divide us as a people. However, the reality is the opposite. BHM not only teaches about the history of black people but about the tollerance and acceptance of other cultures and backgrounds. BET not only shows programs that black Americans have interests in, but programs that all people have interest in. And, they support programs, institutions and global efforts that aid all ethnicities of people.


02/11/2007 04:49:43 AM · #69
Hegemony....
explore the denotation and connotation of that word.
specifically "cultural" hegemony
 02/11/2007 09:56:07 AM · #70

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