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12/28/2006 03:28:49 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by karmat:
re: teaching my kids
When they reach the appropriate age to start making their life decisions, yes, but until then, it is my job, and privilege to teach them what I feel is right. And why I feel that way. What they do is up to them, and their responsibility. But at 5 and 2 (or 10 and 7, or 14 and 11) it is my responsibility.
And I am in no way trying to make you, anyone else, or a model see it otherwise. If someone asks me to shoot them nude (and it has happened), I simply tell them "no, I don't shoot nudes" but I will help you find someone reputable who does.
I feel that way I am able to hold true to my convictions without forcing them on someone who views them differently. |
Of course! I was only using that statement about your children as an example, and was in no way suggesting you should raise them nudist or anything ;)
Unfortunately, my original point got muddled.. which was that I just find it odd that you have this feeling that you are encroaching on someone's privacy when viewing a nude, when they have made that choice to share themselves. That's all. That's just not a concept I really understand. |
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12/28/2006 03:55:29 PM · #27 |
I think the vast majority of nudes are esthetic disasters. The subject overwhelms the photo. Look at the lengths that  silverfoxx goes to in order to add context to and even disguise or transform nudity. That is the sort of effort required, and outside of her photos, I almost never see a nude here that deserves over a 4. The same thing goes for jewelry and sculpture photos. The subject overwhelms the photo. My sense of morality is never invoked, except for the morality of making good art.
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12/28/2006 03:58:08 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Unfortunately, my original point got muddled.. which was that I just find it odd that you have this feeling that you are encroaching on someone's privacy when viewing a nude, when they have made that choice to share themselves. That's all. That's just not a concept I really understand. |
Maybe a non-nude example might clarify Karmat's point; I tend to fee that way when I happen to encounter some of the more ridiculous "reality" shows on TV. Some of them are obsessed with revealing what I consider to be intensely personal things to the public at large, and it makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to see these things, let alone examine them in detail. It doesn't matter to me one white that these people have signed contracts and are willingly revealing these things; I just don't think it's right. I think less of people who do it, and even less of people who are watchers of it. I'm not saying such shows should be banned, not at all, but I definitely AM entitled to my opinion and my standards.
If you live in a culture that frowns on nudity, as apparently Karmat's does (whether she's part of a larger culture and shares its values, or whether it's a personal culture I neither know nor care), then ANY public display of nudity will make you uncomfortable, regardless of how the displayer happens to feel about it.
I'm not sure what, if anything, this adds to the discussion, but I do find the discussion interesting.
R.
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12/28/2006 04:01:25 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think the vast majority of nudes are esthetic disasters. The subject overwhelms the photo. Look at the lengths that silverfoxx goes to in order to add context to and even disguise or transform nudity. That is the sort of effort required, and outside of her photos, I almost never see a nude here that deserves over a 4. The same thing goes for jewelry and sculpture photos. The subject overwhelms the photo. My sense of morality is never invoked, except for the morality of making good art. |
Good point. I have probably given higher scores to more nudes than sculpture shots. I have scored some of the nice "product" shots that are also jewelry pretty high, but most are just not that interesting. |
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12/28/2006 04:52:11 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by karmat:
... not everyone who is "anti-nude" thinks the body is ugly or should be hidden. |
Well ... you do think it should be hidden, but for different reasons.
Great post -- started one of the most cogent and coherent discussions on the topic I've seen. |
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12/28/2006 04:59:26 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by karmat:
... not everyone who is "anti-nude" thinks the body is ugly or should be hidden. |
Well ... you do think it should be hidden, but for different reasons.
Great post -- started one of the most cogent and coherent discussions on the topic I've seen. |
nah, i like to be nekkid. i'm just very selective around whom. :) |
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12/28/2006 05:00:16 PM · #32 |
I suppose from my portfolio it's obvious I don't consider the nude body as being sacred. But, I do agree with Palmetto_Pixels that we were created by God as nude beings. I also believe that it was our sin that made us ashamed of being nude and attempt to hide ourselves from God.
Eroticism? I separate that from nudity (although they are often not exclusive of each other). I do consider some erotic work as art. Also, some photos that some might think of as porn, I'd consider art. That being said, I HATE poorly photographed porn :-)
I do respect that some have reasons and beliefs about the subject of nude and erotic images. And, I greatly respect those (like Karmat) that allow others to have their own views.
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12/28/2006 05:04:26 PM · #33 |
| to continue what leroy is saying, i have seen fully clothed models in pictures that were clearly erotic. |
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12/28/2006 05:04:30 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Excellent posts, Karma and Lee. I tend to not like nude shots, and often score a 1-3 simply because they seem to be more about sex than art. I have seen some excellent artistic nudes and have scored them much higher, even though they are not of a subject I would choose. I think there is a difference in a tasteful nude and a shot that elicits erotic feelings, but I suppose everyone has their own limit on where to draw the line.
edit for spelling |
That's awfully ignorant. |
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12/28/2006 05:06:34 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by MrXpress:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Excellent posts, Karma and Lee. I tend to not like nude shots, and often score a 1-3 simply because they seem to be more about sex than art. I have seen some excellent artistic nudes and have scored them much higher, even though they are not of a subject I would choose. I think there is a difference in a tasteful nude and a shot that elicits erotic feelings, but I suppose everyone has their own limit on where to draw the line.
edit for spelling |
That's awfully ignorant. |
actually, i find it an opinion.
eta: and it all comes out in the wash, because I have read comments from people that voted a picture high JUST because the model had no clothes on.
Message edited by author 2006-12-28 17:10:03. |
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12/28/2006 05:09:25 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by MrXpress:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Excellent posts, Karma and Lee. I tend to not like nude shots, and often score a 1-3 simply because they seem to be more about sex than art. I have seen some excellent artistic nudes and have scored them much higher, even though they are not of a subject I would choose. I think there is a difference in a tasteful nude and a shot that elicits erotic feelings, but I suppose everyone has their own limit on where to draw the line.
edit for spelling |
That's awfully ignorant. |
I don't think so. She clearly states that she sees them as more about the sex than art. I personally feel the same way about other gratuitous subjects that seem to appear time and time again on this site.
Nude or no, a photograph must have some photographic merit to get a high score from me, no matter how I feel about the subject.
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12/28/2006 05:15:19 PM · #37 |
I agree with your sentiment, but I go with the opposite decision. I love artistic (and otherwise) nudes. There are very distinct differences between erotic art, artistic nude and porn.
I think that the body, and even sex, can be very artistic and moving. Porn is moving, but in a completely different manner. :p
I definitely agree that it's not a medium that everyone likes to work in, or even see, but it is very popular with both consumers and producers for a variety of artistic and monetary reasons.
Eventually having a reputation as an enlightened photographer of artistic (and even erotic) nudes has always been a background goal for me, but to date I have enough anxiety following up with regular models. That'll happen when it happens. |
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12/28/2006 05:17:43 PM · #38 |
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12/28/2006 05:19:45 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by karmat:
nah, i like to be nekkid. i'm just very selective around whom. :) |
I gotta investigate this... |
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12/28/2006 05:34:04 PM · #40 |
thank you so much Don! ( posthumous)
I do agree with the sacred body idea.
and I don't like looking at "bold" nude photos.
 karmat, I have exactly the same thoughts about children (though I don't have any yet:)
but a body for me has many meanings and "layers".
there is also body as a thing, an object. there is no eroticism there, nothing seductive, nothing sexy - only a thing to investigate:
what is it?
I use it this way quite often. maybe it's a habit from my drawing courses and interest in Leonardo.
I don't know how to explain it, I don't make "bold" nude photos (well, I made some I though were artistic:), I use bodies as objects for something else.
sometimes objects become subjects, subjects become objects...
self portraits are such an interesting thing, you never know what is what.
but it's another story. |
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12/28/2006 05:38:14 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by MrXpress:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Excellent posts, Karma and Lee. I tend to not like nude shots, and often score a 1-3 simply because they seem to be more about sex than art. I have seen some excellent artistic nudes and have scored them much higher, even though they are not of a subject I would choose. I think there is a difference in a tasteful nude and a shot that elicits erotic feelings, but I suppose everyone has their own limit on where to draw the line.
edit for spelling |
That's awfully ignorant. |
How many people get tired of seeing cats, dragonflies, flowers or any other "overused" subject and start voting very low every time the see another one pop up? I, for one, do not like photos that are about sex or nudes for the sake of nudity or shock value. I use my vote to let these people know I did not appreciate their efforts. For me, it ceases to be about the art of presentation and becomes a "sex sells" issue. I also stated earlier that I have seen some very well done nudes and voted accordingly. |
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12/28/2006 05:48:49 PM · #42 |
While I understand your view point, I don't feel the same way. A body is a sculpture, not much more. To me it's just another form of expression of art.
Although I too don't really feel like parading around waving my panties over my head going "look I'M NAKED!!" if it's done tastefully I have no problem viewing it as a piece of art, a sculpture.
Now, the touchy part. You brought religion into this, to which my initial reaction is, "Oh, she doesn't like naked people because of religion." However, I can get past that automatic thought. Still, it makes me wonder, what if people who feel the same as you weren't raised with any bias on the subject matter...?
One more thing: It's very sweet to say that your body belongs to your husband and his yours, but it gives the impression that everyone else who is showing off their body is essentially...a whore.
Sorry, I must be in a bad mood today, but that's how I feel. I don't have a problem with you sharing your opinion (in fact, that's a good thing) but I suppose I disagree with how you worded it. |
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12/28/2006 05:51:11 PM · #43 |
YAY to Karmat for stating her position clearly and cohesively. There are probably LOTS more people that have very similar opinions / beliefs, but as is proven time and again by the "enlightened, open-minded artists" here, there is much hostility toward anyone whose opinion differs from their view of nudity. The hypocracy on this issue staggers me sometimes.
My opinion on nudity is somewhat divided - the artistic nudity doesn't bother me, but I am not particularly impressed by it with a few notable exceptions.
Three things that bother me the most about it:
- The fact that children will end up seeing things on this site that I would not want my children seeing - and I'm not talking about artistic nudes, but other things that I think convey a twisted message about sex - that's why I don't share DPC with my kids, but that's my choice and my responsibility and not subject to debate here, but I don't try to push my views on anyone who is ok with their kids seeing certain things. AND yes, I know I post non-nudity-related things kids probably shouldn't see either - but I go back to my point that I really don't consider this a kid-friendly site anyway.
- The second thing that bothers me is what I mentioned above - that people are ridiculed for taking offense to it, or the Eurosnobbish attitudes that because many people in America in general hold certain beliefs or attitudes that differ from theirs that we are prudish, medeival, whatever. This issue really sticks in my craw.
- Last one is the people entering nudes, then complaining that they got low scores because of the prudish trolls, etc. It's an easy copout to put in a contraversial subject and whine about it not doing well because of the subject matter. While it is true that people vote low on subjects they are offended by, repulsed by, or otherwise dislike, it is true of all subject matter and I would venture to guess it is more true of other subjects.
There, I've said my piece. Thanks to Karmat for bringing this up. It would be interesting to see a poll and find what the numbers show in terms of attitudes about nudity on this site - not an actionable poll, but just to see how many people have differing opinions. |
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12/28/2006 05:54:40 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
One more thing: It's very sweet to say that your body belongs to your husband and his yours, but it gives the impression that everyone else who is showing off their body is essentially...a whore. |
That's quite a stretch to derive that implication, IMO. Just because someone believes something applies to them, doesn't automatically imply a judgement on others who don't subscribe to that belief. :) |
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12/28/2006 05:59:08 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
One more thing: It's very sweet to say that your body belongs to your husband and his yours, but it gives the impression that everyone else who is showing off their body is essentially...a whore.
Sorry, I must be in a bad mood today, but that's how I feel. I don't have a problem with you sharing your opinion (in fact, that's a good thing) but I suppose I disagree with how you worded it. |
See, now you're gonna make her mad. And I'm fixing to go home to a mad wife. Thanks a freaking lot. :) |
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12/28/2006 06:01:03 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
One more thing: It's very sweet to say that your body belongs to your husband and his yours, but it gives the impression that everyone else who is showing off their body is essentially...a whore.
Sorry, I must be in a bad mood today, but that's how I feel. I don't have a problem with you sharing your opinion (in fact, that's a good thing) but I suppose I disagree with how you worded it. |
See, now you're gonna make her mad. And I'm fixing to go home to a mad wife. Thanks a freaking lot. :) |
sorry for the ripple effect :)
I tend to offend a lot of people...oh well. |
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12/28/2006 06:01:16 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by nards656:
See, now you're gonna make her mad. And I'm fixing to go home to a mad wife. Thanks a freaking lot. :) |
Go home nude :-)
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12/28/2006 06:23:33 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
- The second thing that bothers me is ... the Eurosnobbish attitudes that because many people in America in general hold certain beliefs or attitudes that differ from theirs that we are prudish, medeival, whatever. |
That's only a problem if you buy into the negative connation you believe attaches to the word "prude" -- it's really just a shorthand way of generally describing (stereotyping) a group of commonly-held views regarding nudity.
There's nothing "wrong" about being a prude, any more than there is in being a vegetarian, opera buff, or Republican -- you are free (in the USA, so far) to act in accordance with your own values/belief system, so long as you don't try to impose them on unwilling others.
Maybe you need to print up some Prude & Proud![/i] or [i]I'm A Prude And I VOTE! bumper stickers ... : ) |
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12/28/2006 06:35:26 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
While I understand your view point, I don't feel the same way. A body is a sculpture, not much more. To me it's just another form of expression of art.
Although I too don't really feel like parading around waving my panties over my head going "look I'M NAKED!!" if it's done tastefully I have no problem viewing it as a piece of art, a sculpture.
Now, the touchy part. You brought religion into this, to which my initial reaction is, "Oh, she doesn't like naked people because of religion." However, I can get past that automatic thought. Still, it makes me wonder, what if people who feel the same as you weren't raised with any bias on the subject matter...?
One more thing: It's very sweet to say that your body belongs to your husband and his yours, but it gives the impression that everyone else who is showing off their body is essentially...a whore.
Sorry, I must be in a bad mood today, but that's how I feel. I don't have a problem with you sharing your opinion (in fact, that's a good thing) but I suppose I disagree with how you worded it. |
Quite frankly, yes, you must be in a bad mood because you are reading far more into what I posted than what I posted. :)
Religion -- Yes, I brought religion into it. To say that is the entirety of why I believe what I do is just plain wrong. I think if you will read it again, you are assigning my beliefs to my religious convictions, something I didn't do in my postings.
Where you got that I was calling someone a whore is ludicrous. I merely stated my opinion that governs what I do. I think I even addressed that nudity is generally accepted in the art world, it is just something that I have reasons for not liking.
You didn't disagree with how I worded it, you disagree with my opinion however I worded it. That is fine. Just make sure you are actually disagreeing with what I wrote, and not with what you implied that I wrote. 'kay? :)
Leroy -- He had clothes on when he came home. :( I, however, had just gotten out of the shower. Who was happy then? |
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12/28/2006 06:35:53 PM · #50 |
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