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05/30/2003 10:50:05 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by Martus:
I am not one of those anti-cliche people. I love photographing flowers, animals, children, etc., but they don't belong in every challenge.
I still believe that the voters should request an image being DQ'ed, and that the DQ procedure should be different from DQ'ing an illegal image, but I stand to my point that non-challenge related shots should be DQ'ed. It won't happen a lot, I'm sure of that. Once people know that they can longer get away with submitting a cute kitten, when the challenge was to photograph misery, or a nice flower when asked to photograph road signs, they'll stop doing it.
Nobody wants to be DQ'ed, it's not a nice feeling, and I think it would be a sufficient deterant to stop these kinds of entries very quickly...I believe that many of the newer members look up to the more experienced members such as yourself (I know I do), and with comments like these they are influenced to vote in a certain way. Many newbies read every comment of the more experienced photographers, hoping to learn something, and I believe that in the end, many of them are influenced in their voting patterns. |
The problem is that it puts the burden of deciding/interpreting the photo onto some group of people...and they will be trashed no matter what they do because you are asking of a DQ based on an OPINION, not a rules violation like "no text in the border." It was precisely to avoid this additional burden that the rules were framed as they are, that you are free to request a DQ, but we will not do it if it is merely for "failure to meet the challenge." It was felt that the "punishment" of numerous low scores would be sufficient and educational for the photographer.
Why don't you email me links to a couple of photos you think didn't meet the challenge, and I will respond as I would if it were presented for DQ.
And I'm really not sure why people stretching the meaning of the challenge with their creativity is so bothersome to you. If the subject was "Beds" and I submitted my "Bed Of Roses" idea and you don't like it, why not just give it a 1 and move on? We are supposed to "use our creativity" as is often stressed in the challenge description; we are not typically on an assignment to shoot catalog product shots. |
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05/30/2003 10:51:46 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by autool:
If a persons world revolves around their flower garden and they interpret the challenge of say garbage with a picture of one of their beautiful flowers, then more power to them. |
Sounds like my photo for Garbage :) hehe, but my world doesnt revolve around flowers! Honest!
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05/30/2003 11:07:34 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by Konador:
Originally posted by autool:
If a persons world revolves around their flower garden and they interpret the challenge of say garbage with a picture of one of their beautiful flowers, then more power to them. |
Sounds like my photo for Garbage :) hehe, but my world doesnt revolve around flowers! Honest! |
Not pointing fingers here. |
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05/30/2003 01:59:46 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Martus:
Originally posted by e301:
So ... do we have an example of a photo not obviously related to the challenge getting a ribbon? Not that springs to my mind: that'll be it's own form of encouragement away from the forced title entries eventually.
Ed |
For some of us 50th place is just as important as 1st. It is just as big a milestone placing top 100 or top 50, as it is to win a ribbon. Being outdone by a photo that does not even meet the challenge is extremely demoralising. |
IMO, some people at dpc attach way to much importance to meeting the challenge. Sure, if you feel they don't meet the challenge, vote them down somewhat but given good photos 1s because the voter (who may be entirely wrong by the way) believes it doesn't meet the challenge seems ludicrous to me. The main emphasis should be on good photos and creativity. And perhaps a cleverly creative photo meets the challenge in such a fine subtle way that the perhaps not-so-clever voter is not able to comprehend.
And yes, there was a photo that won first prize and that really didn't meet the challenge. It was the Fear challenge and, as someone in the forums pointed out correctly, the image described fearless and not fear. |
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05/30/2003 02:18:51 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Journey:
[quote=Martus][quote=e301]IMO, some people at dpc attach way to much importance to meeting the challenge. |
I might not disagree with you, but the Rules of the Challenges state:
"While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."
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05/30/2003 02:51:17 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by inspzil:
I am wondering the same thing as John. I think if you were to do something like that, it should be like the pencil challenge. Additionally I think that there should be something in the wording of the challenge expressing the need for the camera for instance, to be the subject of the photo and not just be included in the picture somewhere. At least that's my interpretation of the subject - The main focal point or co-focal point. |
I take that into consideration in my voting - people who put the contest topic front and center in the starring role start from a higher score point than those who just throw it in randomly ... and have a higher maximum score as well (I never score anyone who put the contest topic in an incidental position higher than 8, and for THAT they'd have to completely blow me away with the image. More likely 5, even for a nice shot).
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05/30/2003 03:53:57 PM · #32 |
Once again almost everybody missed the point of this thread, and my comments, entirely. Yes, I did state that I thought entries which did not meet the challenge in any way shape or form should be DQ'ed, but does this mean that creative interpretation goes out the window? I think not.
I don't want to single any photo or photographer out for missing the point of a challenge entirely, but we all know that they're out there. Also, people's creative interpretations are not what get on my nerves, but rather the instances where there have been a total disregard for the challenge description. I can see someone creatively interpreting "home sweet home" as meaning a place for something to live or interpretations there of, but how do you interpret "photograph the place you call home" as meaning anything but PHOTOGRAPH THE PLACE YOU CALL HOME?
Let me put it more plainly. If you were to enter a baby photo competition, using a photo of a toddler instead of a baby, nobody would have a problem. Would you win? Probably not. Would you be disqualified? Probably not. If you were to send in a photo of your new porche, I think it would end up in the waste paper basket.
The same should be used here. If the challenge simply stated take a photo of your baby, I would give the porche a great score (if it was a good photo of course). If the challenge description read submit a photo of an infant or small child, then I believe the porche should go in the waste paper basket.
Yes people would be sour at the site council for some decisions, but that's why you guys have the cool little purple icons, isn't it?
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05/30/2003 06:01:06 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Martus:
If the challenge simply stated take a photo of your baby, I would give the porche a great score (if it was a good photo of course). If the challenge description read submit a photo of an infant or small child, then I believe the porche should go in the waste paper basket.
Yes people would be sour at the site council for some decisions, but that's why you guys have the cool little purple icons, isn't it? |
Your example here illustrates why the challenge WOULD likely be worded "My Baby" -- precisely to allow the kind of creative interpretations you give. BTW: There is a very recent thread titled "My New Baby" and it does not concern a human infant...
And no, probably our main reason for having the purple icons is to answer questions and keep people from calling each other (and us) names.
It is still a matter of taste...for some a close relationship to the challenge is essential, for others less so, and for some it is sometimes invisible...but may nevertheless be present.
Think about the numbers...I've rarely seen a photo get more than six DQ reuests; usually it's one or two. That means some 100-odd voters have voted on the image, and found enough relationship to the challenge to assign it a reasonable score (and it is the rare photo indeed which averages less than 3). Why should your DQ request and the opinion of a majority of a very small group trump the opinions of all those other voters?
Message edited by author 2003-05-30 18:01:51. |
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05/30/2003 06:21:41 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
And no, probably our main reason for having the purple icons is to answer questions and keep people from calling each other (and us) names. |
And there's me thinking it was because you had bad fashion sense :p
Martus, my shot is very likely to be one of those you would have DQed. If you take the wording of the challenge literally it certainly does not meet it. A few people have commented that it doesn't meet the challenge at all in their opinion, I respect their honesty and their viewpoint. I expect many more have low-voted it without comment. No Problem. However, my score is doing quite well, so there must be just as many voters who do see the connection I have tried to make. I will explain it further in a comment on the shot after voting.
So who should decide what gets DQed? What if the group that decides share a similar viewpoint on meeting the challenge? What if their viewpoint is different to yours?
I think that letting the voters decide is the only fair way to judge. The challenge guidelines are not set in stone in the way the editing rules are so it would be impossible for a small subset of voters to decide fairly. And if anyone really is getting upset over finishing 51st rather than top 50 then they are placing *way* too much importance on the scores.
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05/30/2003 06:29:29 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by bod:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
And no, probably our main reason for having the purple icons is to answer questions and keep people from calling each other (and us) names. |
And there's me thinking it was because you had bad fashion sense :p |
In my own case, it may be because I can't usually tell the difference between blue and purple without a densitometer or REALLY good lighting and a lot of concentration. |
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05/31/2003 02:49:10 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by bod:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
And no, probably our main reason for having the purple icons is to answer questions and keep people from calling each other (and us) names. |
And there's me thinking it was because you had bad fashion sense :p
Martus, my shot is very likely to be one of those you would have DQed. If you take the wording of the challenge literally it certainly does not meet it. A few people have commented that it doesn't meet the challenge at all in their opinion, I respect their honesty and their viewpoint. I expect many more have low-voted it without comment. No Problem. However, my score is doing quite well, so there must be just as many voters who do see the connection I have tried to make. I will explain it further in a comment on the shot after voting.
So who should decide what gets DQed? What if the group that decides share a similar viewpoint on meeting the challenge? What if their viewpoint is different to yours?
I think that letting the voters decide is the only fair way to judge. The challenge guidelines are not set in stone in the way the editing rules are so it would be impossible for a small subset of voters to decide fairly. And if anyone really is getting upset over finishing 51st rather than top 50 then they are placing *way* too much importance on the scores. |
Bod, your comment illustrates my point to some extent. There have been so many threads on voting where people's opinions on voting have been criticised, sometimes to the point where comments turned into personal insults, that the mainstream of voters, who hardly ever make themselves heard except by casting their vote, have been so intimidated into not giving low scores for a technically sound photo, that the importance of the whole challenge idea has gone out the window.
I like the challenge aspect of DPC. If I wanted to showcase my technical abilities only, I would go to Bestphoto.com.
Like I said in my first post to this thread, I believe a challenge should attempt to get us out of our little comfort zones. That's how you learn new skills.
I would not change the DQ procedure drastically. Requesting an image DQ, on the grounds of not meeting the challenge, I would suggest that at least five voters should request the photo to be DQ'ed, and that the photographer should then be given a chance to explain his interpretation to the site council. If they find the association to be a stretch of the imagination, the image should be DQ'ed.
Maybe we should have a challenge where literal interpretations are not allowed. That should get artistic illiterates such as myself out of our comfort zones.
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05/31/2003 07:15:10 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by Martus:
Bod, your comment illustrates my point to some extent. There have been so many threads on voting where people's opinions on voting have been criticised, sometimes to the point where comments turned into personal insults, that the mainstream of voters, who hardly ever make themselves heard except by casting their vote, have been so intimidated into not giving low scores for a technically sound photo, that the importance of the whole challenge idea has gone out the window. |
I agree that those threads are bad, but I don't think the voters really are put off because unless they leave a comment their vote is anonymous.
I also don't think that the idea of the challenge has gone out the window because 90%+ of the entries play it safe. I do usually stick to the challenge, but every once in a while I like to throw something a little different in.
I knew very well what I was doing when I submitted. Anyone who stretches the topic and thinks they're not going to get 'doesn't meet the challenge' votes are really kidding themselves. They need to step back and think before venting in the forums.
I hope that any voters who have been scared to vote down for not meeting the challenge will see that we're not all going to kick off at them, and if they're worried about being attacked then just vote without comment.
I just think that the threat of a DQ is too harsh.
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06/02/2003 04:58:07 AM · #38 |
Hey I just thought of something! How about we form a small group (10 people?) and we try our best to manipulate FLOWER to fit whatever challenge the DPC throws at us everyweek? This sounds like fun! LOL
EDIT: The purpose for this small group is to contest who shoots the best Flower shots :) This offer is open to FLOWER photo professionals only! :P I guess I'm out.
Message edited by author 2003-06-02 05:00:58. |
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06/02/2003 05:24:17 AM · #39 |
| You should also check out this thread. |
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06/02/2003 06:28:34 AM · #40 |
I finally got round to voting on this challenge over the weekend and if you were to DQ shots that didn't meet the challenge "Photograph the place you call home" then about 20 of the 50 or so entries I've seen so far would have to be kicked out! :-/
I have yet to see a shot that didn't relate to "Home Sweet Home" though, so it all depends on how strict you want to be.
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06/02/2003 07:00:17 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by bod:
I finally got round to voting on this challenge over the weekend and if you were to DQ shots that didn't meet the challenge "Photograph the place you call home" then about 20 of the 50 or so entries I've seen so far would have to be kicked out! :-/
I have yet to see a shot that didn't relate to "Home Sweet Home" though, so it all depends on how strict you want to be. |
Many of the shots in Home Sweet Home are a bit of a stretch, which is why I continually used this challenge as an example. Normally the problem is not as accentuated as it is here.
I would probably not have requested that many DQ's, I have not finished voting yet, but I have only seen ± 5 entries, which IMO, take artistic interpretation to a whole new level.
I am probably going to regret this, but I've been leaving comments on all the entries I feel do not meet the challenge, and have been voting these shots a 1. I will do this every challenge from now on, that I am able to vote on. I will be more than willing to reconsider any vote if the photographer can convince me that his/her entry was infact not deserving of the low score.
Message edited by author 2003-06-02 08:17:28.
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06/02/2003 09:50:34 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Martus:
I am probably going to regret this, but I've been leaving comments on all the entries I feel do not meet the challenge, and have been voting these shots a 1. I will do this every challenge from now on, that I am able to vote on. I will be more than willing to reconsider any vote if the photographer can convince me that his/her entry was infact not deserving of the low score. |
Could you please tell me how you decide for people what they call there own home?
I mean, is'nt my town me home? or am I getting far away from the challange?
I'm not sure, and I think I could argue this for a long time...
v. |
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06/02/2003 10:30:58 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by vjoz:
Originally posted by Martus:
I am probably going to regret this, but I've been leaving comments on all the entries I feel do not meet the challenge, and have been voting these shots a 1. I will do this every challenge from now on, that I am able to vote on. I will be more than willing to reconsider any vote if the photographer can convince me that his/her entry was infact not deserving of the low score. |
Could you please tell me how you decide for people what they call there own home?
I mean, is'nt my town me home? or am I getting far away from the challange?
I'm not sure, and I think I could argue this for a long time...
v. |
Actually I agree with you that a Home Town, would meet the challenge. There are however some photos in this challenge which in my opinion do not meet the requirement of "photograph the place you call home".
The kinds of photos which I feel should not have been entered in this challenge are discussed at length in the rest of the thread.
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06/02/2003 10:43:09 AM · #44 |
| For some of us, this would have been a good time to take a shot of our computer monitor, right up there where it says "My Home" |
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06/02/2003 02:09:03 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
For some of us, this would have been a good time to take a shot of our computer monitor, right up there where it says "My Home" |
Just be careful you don't get disqualified for literaly representing a piece of art :)
Well, I finished voting, ended up with 14 entries which I unfortunately could not relate to the challenge. All of these were very nice photos and it was no fun giving them low scores. As stated previously I have left comments on all of these photos, so that the photographer at least knows why he received a 1 from me. I just hope a voting pattern will eventually emerge, which will strongly discourage people from submitting borderline photos.
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06/02/2003 03:23:45 PM · #46 |
It seems that the assumption some people make when you argue that photos should meet the challenge is that you're requiring a hyper-literal interpretation. There are lots of pictures in the Home Sweet Home challenge that aren't houses, but I'm happily accepting as meeting the challenge, because either the image or the title at least hints at it being someplace someone calls home - or in some cases things that make their home "sweet". It's pictures that are not personal where I'm starting to draw a line. This is *so* hard to discuss in any direct way while the challenge is on without singling out specific photos, which I don't want to do. Just please believe me - I'm not (and I don't think Marcus is) calling for hyper-literal interpretations of every challeng. Back to his original post, he was just requesting a single or occasional challenge like that. (At least, that's what I thought it sounded like...)
A few posts back in the thread (about the top of the second page), Marcus raised the example of the baby photo contest, and this raised what I think is a primary cause of all the confusion and ill will on this matter. The example was a challenge titled "My Baby", with a description to take a picture of an infant or toddler. Based on the title alone, there's a wide variety of interpretations (almost wide enough to just have a challenge titled "Anything You Like"), but when you add the description, there's now a limit to what can be interpreted as "My Baby". Home Sweet Home was the same way - the title alone allows a very broad interpretation, but the description places a limit on the interpretation. And there's where the arguements start.
So my suggestion is: either get rid of the descriptions and let the titles stand on their own (and thereby pretty much open the floodgates for any subject in any challenge), or be more specific in the descriptions and make it a more prominent, stated possition of the site that voting should reflect the description.
BTW, I wonder how many people never even read the descriptions? That would certainly explain the (IMO) poor interpretation of challenges like Home Sweet Home. Maybe placing the description on the front page would help - putting it right up front, so there's no question about it.
I don't think we need a "compliance police" kind of deal, with DQs for not meeting the challenge - that's just a war waiting to happen, not to mention way too much work for the mods. But if the official policy of the site were that voting should reflect the meeting of the challenge (which by Jak's post, it sounds like it is - just not very vocally reinforced in the forums), maybe that would free up voters to follow their own interpretation of the photo and the challenge.
And, voters who are "not-so-clever" were denegrated for their inability to "get" a clever interpretation of a challenge - I would argue that if us unenlightened slobs don't get it, then maybe the "clever" photographer didn't do their job of communicating their idea, and deserve a lower score on that point alone.
I dunno, maybe that doesn't really change anything. All I know is that the complaining on all sides is as annoying, if not more so, than looking at flowers/pets/kids for every challenge (which, actually, I mostly don't notice as much while voting as while reading the forums).
Oh, and Bod took the example of placing 50th extremely hyper-literally, and closed mindedly ;-), instead of understanding that the intent of the comment was that it's frustrating to try to be creative in finding or creating a shot that matches the challenge (which to me is far more creative than ignoring the guidelines and titling any picture you want to try to make it fit), and thereby maybe be a little less technically perfect in the shot, just to have a bunch of slick, non-related shot do better than you.
EDIT: Oh, and BTW, one more note in an already way-to-long post - I personally don't automatically give a 1 to a photo that I feel doesn't meet the challenge; I do, however tend to have a loose "cap" of around 4 or 5, and at the very least I might look at it the other way around and deduct 2-3 points from the score I might otherwise give it. Ultimately, I think as long as you're consistent in how you vote, it all washes out to some degree in the end...
Message edited by author 2003-06-02 15:32:20. |
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06/02/2003 04:33:02 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
BTW, I wonder how many people never even read the descriptions? |
Me too! I did actually read it at the start of the challenge but by the time I took my shot it had become a little 'fuzzy' to say the least. :-/
When I came to submit I realised the shot didn't fit the description, but there is a point behind the shot that ties it to the challenge so I went with it.
I think I have more "doesn't meet the challenge" comments (4 or 5) on this entry than I've had on all my previous entries put together so this isn't something I make a habit of.
Originally posted by ScottK:
Oh, and Bod took the example of placing 50th extremely hyper-literally, and closed mindedly ;-) |
Touché.
Yeah, sorry about that : )
Martus, I am one of your 14, thanks for the comment. I do hope nobody gives you any grief about them.
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06/02/2003 06:07:33 PM · #48 |
| All right - my two cents as a brand new member ( this week ) as well as a recently DQed submitter because I used filters (didn't read far enough along in the rules). Perhaps adding a new subclass for the challenges: the literal interpretation and the figurative, not competing against each other. DQing may be too hard, but judging submissions fairly is important too... |
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06/02/2003 06:13:03 PM · #49 |
It is worth remembering that no-one gets DQed for failing to meet the challenge. The consequences of "failing to meet the challenge" are purely in the hands of the voters.
Message edited by author 2003-06-02 18:13:21.
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06/02/2003 09:00:36 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Think about the numbers...I've rarely seen a photo get more than six DQ reuests; usually it's one or two. That means some 100-odd voters have voted on the image, and found enough relationship to the challenge to assign it a reasonable score (and it is the rare photo indeed which averages less than 3). Why should your DQ request and the opinion of a majority of a very small group trump the opinions of all those other voters? |
This doesn't necessarily mean the 100-odd voters who don't request DQ believe the photo is legal. Maybe I'm not the only one here who doesn't want to cause others the embarassment of disqualification. |
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