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12/06/2006 01:00:30 AM · #1 |
 "Market Man" re the Diagonal challange just ended
I am at a loss to why my image received 3-1's + 3-2's + 1-3 and 15-4's. What am I doing wrong..... I feel totally at a lose to why I don't have comments, along with these scores, to explain why. I can't learn to fix what is wrong, if no one tells me.
I was really proud of this "candid-emotive" image, as it was taken at the markets, with no set up plans, but as soon as I saw him, I knew what I wanted. One comment said, it was titled to much, but hey, it is a diagonal challange, and it is suppose to be tilted.
I am at a loss to what to say or do anymore, and feel so disponded.
I do thank the ones who gave me positive comments, and votes very much. i am very happy with how and where it finished, as it struggled each and every day to climb slowly up to the high 5's, and only today, into the low 6's. That really does help to make me feel a little better. I thank you.
Message edited by author 2006-12-06 01:02:51.
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12/06/2006 01:05:15 AM · #2 |
I voted relatively high on this one if its any consolation. I liked the detail you captured and I really did get a sense of emotion from it. In terms of being "tilted"? I liked the fact that you didn't include a lot of background and drew the focus to the face. He looks like he is just looking down. Only by looking at the background do you notice that this is tilted.
Anyways, to cut to the chase: I wouldn't let 22 people upset you. Especially when 37 people gave this an 8 or higher.
*edit* corrected typo
Message edited by author 2006-12-06 01:06:21.
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12/06/2006 01:06:43 AM · #3 |
First of all, excellent photograph!
Low votes can be for a lot of reasons that have nothing to with the quality of the image.
The only issues I possibly see is that the diagnonal may not be evident to everyone.
My therory these days is, if I can get a 6+ it has been a successful challenge.
This is an image to me proud of, so be proud and don't let the trolls get you down.
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12/06/2006 01:06:44 AM · #4 |
Thank you, as you are so right, but I just would have liked a comment to why, when they do this.....thats all.
Originally posted by Citadel:
I voted relatively high on this one if its any consolation. I liked the detail you captured and I really did get a sense of emotion from it. In terms of being "tilted"? I liked the fact that you didn't include a lot of background and drew the focus to the face. He looks like he is just looking down. Only by looking at the background do you notice that this is tilted.
Anyways, to cut to the chase: I wouldn't let 12 people upset you. Especially when 37 people gave this an 8 or higher. |
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12/06/2006 01:08:34 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by sherpet:
Thank you, as you are so right, but I just would have liked a comment to why, when they do this.....thats all. |
That discussion has been brought up very very lots of times.. the commenting reminder has been implemented, don't think there's much more they can do about it.
Hey, at least you got 12 comments, I got 5 ;-) |
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12/06/2006 01:08:54 AM · #6 |
| Me, I don't really like it. No offense, but I don't like the treatment much, and background is a little glarey and not OOF enough to be really pleasing, rather it distracts. It seems tilted for the sake of tilting and the angle you used it a bit awkward. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of your stuff, but not this. If I voted any more I'd probably have given it a 3 or 4. |
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12/06/2006 01:09:22 AM · #7 |
I wouldn't feel too despondent over any score over 6.0. I expected to come in here and see a score 5.3 or less! There's no accounting for taste. Take the 6.1 and run!
As for actual criticism, I think it would have scored higher if there was more light on his face, via fill flash or reflector, though that's tough to do with candids. Candids don't tend to do as well as staged shots around here in my experience, usually because there are variables you just can't control that people will pick on.
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12/06/2006 01:09:43 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by sherpet:
Thank you, as you are so right, but I just would have liked a comment to why, when they do this.....thats all.
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Perhaps you should refer to this thread... |
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12/06/2006 01:10:10 AM · #9 |
This would be a big indicator:
Avg (commenters): 7.3333
Its my theory that the longer someone looks at a picture the more they find to like about it. The trend I see (in my own pictures at least) is that the people who take time to comment also take time to really look at the picture. At least thats the theory anyways. I know that I vote this way myself. Now if people start taking pictures of shiny paper I am in big trouble :)
Message edited by author 2006-12-06 01:11:25.
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12/06/2006 01:16:12 AM · #10 |
Thank you again, this is what I want people to tell me, so I can learn to do better next time if possible. I thank you so much for you honesty.
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
I wouldn't feel too despondent over any score over 6.0. I expected to come in here and see a score 5.3 or less! There's no accounting for taste. Take the 6.1 and run!
As for actual criticism, I think it would have scored higher if there was more light on his face, via fill flash or reflector, though that's tough to do with candids. Candids don't tend to do as well as staged shots around here in my experience, usually because there are variables you just can't control that people will pick on. |
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12/06/2006 01:17:16 AM · #11 |
Anything over 6.0 is a decent score nowadays.
89% ? Nothing to complain about really.
Regarding why it wasn't higher? I personally feel the post-processing is harsh in some areas, and perhaps too noise-reduced/neat-imaged in others like his skin - cracks remained, but the texture was lost. A slight drop in Cyan saturation would have brought his beard into a more white realm, rather than the blue tint. Perhaps a sligtly tighter crop, getting less of his hat and getting his eye closer to the golden rule of thirds point may have helped the composition a tad more. I also think the voters may have thought this as an image that was simply rotated to fit into the challenge.
Just a couple thoughts anyway.
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12/06/2006 01:29:05 AM · #12 |
Again, I thank you, as what you say does make a lot of sense.....
I am very pleased with this image, but really wanted to know why some people didn't like it, and dont explain why..... I really appriciate the support this image did receive, so again I thank you all, for listening to me gripe, and I als appriciate the support that I do get from so many.
Originally posted by BradP:
Anything over 6.0 is a decent score nowadays.
89% ? Nothing to complain about really.
Regarding why it wasn't higher? I personally feel the post-processing is harsh in some areas, and perhaps too noise-reduced/neat-imaged in others like his skin - cracks remained, but the texture was lost. A slight drop in Cyan saturation would have brought his beard into a more white realm, rather than the blue tint. Perhaps a sligtly tighter crop, getting less of his hat and getting his eye closer to the golden rule of thirds point may have helped the composition a tad more. I also think the voters may have thought this as an image that was simply rotated to fit into the challenge.
Just a couple thoughts anyway. |
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12/06/2006 01:37:57 AM · #13 |
One of the first things I learnt on DPC was that not everyone will like everything you do. In fact, some people will hate it, for their own reasons. That's fair enough. I dish out 1's and 2's to shots I don't like as well.
And if I don't feel like leaving the comment 'I don't like it', then I won't. In fact, I gave up leaving comments on my 1,2, and 3 votes. Once bitten, twice shy.
I was sick of getting PMs for being honest in my comments. |
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12/06/2006 02:07:57 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
And if I don't feel like leaving the comment 'I don't like it', then I won't. |
I would have to agree with that. I see no obligation to leave a comment with a 1, 2 or 3 any more than with a 8, 9 or 10.
I think it's reasonable to post a challenge entry after the challenge and ask "how could this have done better" (which is essentially what the topic says), but then to complain that you got no comments with the low scores is not - well, I won't say it's unreasonable, but I will say it's unrealistic. Accept that, other than the perceived Troll votes, some folks look at it and just think "hate it" for no particular reason. To each his own. Let's stop trying to control how people vote and comment. Just my take on it anyways.
Sherryl, you got an excellent score and solid finish - be proud of it. I didn't vote on it, but I like it a lot! Love the detail. Smile and don't fret about a few low scores. :) |
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12/06/2006 03:23:31 AM · #15 |
What's wrong here? In a word ... Nothing. Lots of individuals looked at the image, some liked it, others didn't -- as long as the vote cast reflects how they felt about the image everything is fine.
My view of it.
The strong diagonal carries a lot of visual impact -- and yes it is strong, the leading line of his hat's seam can hardly be considered subtle. This leading line takes me straight to his eyes and the rich 'story lines' around them -- but the textures that connect the 'stories' are missing and the eyes obscured. It is a rare portrait, in which the eyes don't play a major role. But these eyes are hidden in half-shut lids and shadow, looking away ... down to something. That something, however, is completely absent from the image -- there is no context to give so much as a hint of what could have his attention.
This is where the image falls apart for me. With no context to give the pose meaning and without the eyes to see into the character of those 'stories', the image dissolves into an abstraction of texture and color. That his face is the main element of the abstraction becomes irrelevant.
The treatment (as it was referred to earlier) it was given in post processing further aid that abstraction by emphasising color and texture while providing no conveyance for the 'stories'. The abstraction is complete; several strong elements that instead of working together to form a compelling image instead bicker amoung themselves stripping the image of meaning and leaving it with just hollow impact.
At least that is how I see it -- but, as always, it is just the view from my perspective.
Just as surely as a telephone pole growing from someones head, there are simply too many element working against each other without any visible purpose for any of them for me to give it a high score. I didn't vote -- simply don't have the time I use to -- but you are likely glad I didn't. If I had voted I would have likely given it a 3. You asked for reasons behind low scores, so I present you with this view of what would have been a low score if I had more time.
I hope you can find what you are looking for in it.
David |
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12/06/2006 03:33:31 AM · #16 |
I don't think anything went wrong with that photo. Your score was pretty respectable, in the context of this site and it's scoring mentality.
Maybe some day I will be able to get a 6+ score and wonder what went "wrong" with it.
Seriously, you have nothing to worry about.
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12/06/2006 03:41:17 AM · #17 |
I actually appriciate all that has been said here, and feel so much better, re my inadequate feelings that I had, not knowing what I did wrong by some of the lower votes that I received.
Yes, I am very pleased with what I did do, and only wanted to know how could it have been better. Thank again, as I do appriciate all comments given.
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12/06/2006 03:47:59 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by sherpet:
"Market Man" re the Diagonal challange just ended
I am at a loss to why my image received 3-1's + 3-2's + 1-3 and 15-4's. What am I doing wrong..... I feel totally at a lose to why I don't have comments, along with these scores, to explain why. I can't learn to fix what is wrong, if no one tells me. |
First, you got an average score over 6. In DPC land, and only in DPC land, that is considered a good score. So there is nothing wrong with your image. Chances are that if you knew the reasons for the low scorers it would contribute nothing to improving this image, so don't sweat it.
Second, You should always expect a nice bell curve of scores. The bell curve usually has tapering "wings" on either side. Yours is unusual, not because there are low scores, but because instead of giving you 3s some voters went even lower to 2s and 1s.
There are a number of possible technical reasons for the low scores:
1-Oversharpening.
On my 17" monitor the beard looks slightly oversharpened. Because it contains so much fine detail some voters may have found that a major distraction (I'm just talking about the occasional 'odd' voter, not 'normal' voters)
2-The lavender collar clashes with the rest of the image.
3-Oversaturated colors.
4-Beard half in shadow, half in direct sunlight. That would be a distraction to some viewers.
5-The white leaf, or whatever it is, just below the brim of the hat. That acts as a distraction.
However, I think the "real" reason, combined with one of more of the above items, that actually got you those 2s and 1s is this:
6-Challenge Nit Pickers!
This is a diagonal challenge and there are those who would automatically give a low score to any image that they could discern as not being a natural 45 degree angle. Those are the nit pickers!
Item 5 draws attention to the cacti that clearly show, as one commenter noted, that your image is NOT 45 degrees to the horizontal. Nit pickers noticing that would feel that you 'faked' the 45 degree angle just to shoehorn your picture into the challenge, so they punished you for it.
Nit pickers live for that sort of thing. :)
Message edited by author 2006-12-06 03:56:36.
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12/06/2006 05:43:56 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
First, you got an average score over 6. In DPC land, and only in DPC land, that is considered a good score. |
StDavidson, you really wouldn't enjoy the English education system! In secondary and higher education a 6 out of 10 is a decent mark; also, the organisation I work for uses a scoring system for promotions and appointments - 6 out of 10 is classed as suitable with no caveats...
Sherpet, I really liked this photograph. I thought the diagonal was strong and appropriate, and at first look I didn't even realise it had been tilted. On a more critical note, the lack of texture in part of the skin is at odds with the beard and cap. As David C notes, the hidden eyes do mean that you need some context to the gaze - and as the photo was actually tilted, this wouldn't be possible.
Message edited by author 2006-12-06 05:44:52. |
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12/06/2006 05:49:43 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
This would be a big indicator:
Avg (commenters): 7.3333
Its my theory that the longer someone looks at a picture the more they find to like about it. The trend I see (in my own pictures at least) is that the people who take time to comment also take time to really look at the picture. At least thats the theory anyways. I know that I vote this way myself. Now if people start taking pictures of shiny paper I am in big trouble :) |
I tend to look quite hard at the photos before voting, sometimes, you find things to like, but other times you find things to dislike, at first glance it looked as though the man was looking down, maybe counting some money, then you notice that the background is tilted as well, so realy the diagenal, is simply the camera being tilted, had the camera been level, and the man looking down, this could have had a better score, if I just looked quickly, I would have scored 9, or even 10, it's a realy good shot, with lots of detail, I actualy voted 6, I would like to see some comments from the voters who scored 1s and 2s, with there views, I don't see any justification for such low scores, with such a good photo, some one scored a 1 on my diagenal shot as well, and I had comments on the spelling, not one of my strong points, and I put signet, instead of cygnet, I'm here to lern, I find the comments helpfull, there's no point in worreing about the votes, nearly every shot gets a 1, even some of the riboners, just have to live with it.
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12/06/2006 01:46:09 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
First, you got an average score over 6. In DPC land, and only in DPC land, that is considered a good score. |
StDavidson, you really wouldn't enjoy the English education system! In secondary and higher education a 6 out of 10 is a decent mark; also, the organisation I work for uses a scoring system for promotions and appointments - 6 out of 10 is classed as suitable with no caveats... |
Where I come from in the United States if you score below 75% on the written portion of your driving test you fail and cannot get your driver's license until you retake the written portion again and pass and go on to pass your driver's test.
I have spent a career working closely with educators in the American K-12 educational system. In graded workshops and classes that I have personally taught I expect and demand the highest level of performance from my students, and when they are challenged they deliver. I almost always have to give As and Bs, and that is on a much tougher standard than England's. I apply that same high standard to my DPC evaluations.
Message edited by author 2006-12-06 13:49:21.
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12/06/2006 02:00:07 PM · #22 |
You need to just ignore those scores. I've ribboned with a much worse showing in the 1-4 range.
You:
3,3,1,15
Me (yellow ribbon):
7,3,8,24
It's an excellent shot. You can't please everybody all the time. Don't try.
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12/06/2006 02:02:42 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
First, you got an average score over 6. In DPC land, and only in DPC land, that is considered a good score. |
I actually regularly participated in an online photo contest before DPC (it's now defunct) where a five score was good. I think I saw only a few 6+ scores ever.
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12/06/2006 05:13:36 PM · #24 |
I really so appriciate everyones responses, and thank you all so much.
I must have been a litle sensitive yesterday, and now have things more in perspective.
I think you are all right, and now know not to let my scores get to me, re the 1's 2's & 3's. Life is like that, but all I really wanted was a comment explaning why, when one get a low score, so as to improve myself, where ones goes wrong in the eyes of the voter.
Thanks.....
Please consider this thread closed, re my side of the story.
Message edited by author 2006-12-06 17:13:47.
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12/07/2006 12:08:54 AM · #25 |
Sherpet, I'm pretty new to DPC as well as photography. For me, it's something that I'm doing because I am also learning as I go. I thought that this may be a good way to get some constructive critism in order to learn.
But, I am an artist (paint, pastels, graphite.....not photography) and I always find that in any form of art, there are always going to be those who like something because it hits them on one level or another and some who are going to hate it for that very reason. It's all very "subjective". That's the hard part of any type of art. I've seen what I'd consider "Masterpieces" be torn to shreds while I've seen literal stick figures get rave reviews! Go figure.
You could have the most technically correct photo, but someone else has a less impressive technical aspect yet, it hits others on some level that causes them to think it's wonderfully done.
Take it in stride Sherpet. I think that your score is good........look at what other have said in here. And, what do I know? I'm just learning too. |
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