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12/03/2006 07:31:55 PM · #1 |
This week there will be two shows posted with a special "Nudecast" which is now available.
In this special 1 hour+ episode the host (myself) explores the subject of nudity on DPC and whether or not nudity is scored fairly or is getting low voted due to a offended voters who find all nudity offensive. I speak with Manic from the site council regarding the site councils perspective on nudity and Manic clarifies the rules on nudity for challenges vs personal portfolios. I discuss my first ever nude entry which was submitted for disqualification and was validated by site council and get their view on the validation process. In the feature interview, I interview Judi from DPC who is well known on the DPC community for her nude challenge entries and portfolios. Judi discusses her views on nudity, low scoring voters, and gives helpful tips for working with models (particularly nude models).
Warning: This show contains adult subject matter and links provided in the show notes will link to nude photos discussed in the show. While the show primarily comes accross as pro nudity, a future special podcast plans to look at the other side of the coinâ€Â¦that is the viewpoint that DPC should be cleaned up and nudity curtailed or eliminated all together.
You can listen to the show and follow along with links to the photos we discuss at:
www.dpcpodcast.com
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12/03/2006 07:36:39 PM · #2 |
Oh and as always, PLEASE provide feedback on this thread if you listen to the show. Both myself and my guest interviews always enjoy hearing what people thought. It's the best part of the show for us. I'm looking forward to hearding comments and criticism.
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12/03/2006 10:58:44 PM · #3 |
You did well Lee. I can see where the skype cut out caused some volume difficulties...but aside from that...I think you put it together nicely.
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12/03/2006 11:00:08 PM · #4 |
Great interview with Judi. Interesting to me that there is so much hand wringing over this issue. I agree with most of what Judi had to say regarding the issue as it relates to this site, and nudity and nudism or naturism in general. I enjoyed her thoughts on weapons in photos, being evocative of violence and harm, and how interesting it is that more people are upset by pictures of the unclothed human form, than by weapons. I would take this further to point out that less people are offended by snuff pictures, and more by nudes. It almost seems to me that many people will trundle out the "what about the children" argument when a controversial nude appears, but don't make a peep when a blood-soaked snuff picture is posted. Disturbing.
Judi, you seemed slightly of two minds to me though, eschewing the genitals not just in challenge shots but in general as well, bluntly describing them as ugly. :) That's ok, but for me it felt that it went slightly against your discussion about the inherent beauty of the human form versus the ugliness of weapons, and weakened it slightly. I believe the human form cannot do without the genitals. :) Therefore they should be fair game.
I personally think they should be allowed in challenges, as it seems somewhat arbitrary not to allow them based on the potential for "disturbing" people somehow.
Interesting and engaging interview, the first I've listened to. |
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12/03/2006 11:28:52 PM · #5 |
Haven't listened yet, but reading Louis' comments, I would disagree with the idea that weapons and violence are ok but nudity is not. I would bet that people who find nudity offensive would also find graphic violence offensive. If you can find me anyone who says they are offended by nudity but not graphic violence (both as an art form), I might be swayed. Until then I think that is a baseless argument. Just my opinion though.
Anyway, I am not offended by nudity, but I am not comfortable with some displays of it in the presence of children. Same with graphic violence though. Again, my opinion and I'm not going to engage in trying to convince other people what they or their kids should or shouldn't view.
I would also not try to disparage anyone who is offended by any subject and chooses to vote low because of it. How many biased low votes do you think Woody shots get? ;-) I've also seen popular subject matter get higher scores also - not just my opinion - you can read it in the comments. Subject matter is part of the scoring and personal biases, good or bad, are part of that. Everyone wishes everyone else was as [insert favorite term here - i.e. "open-minded", "progressive", etc.)] as they were. LOL
Ok, off to listen to the podcast. ...wondering if Judi did the interview nude... |
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12/03/2006 11:44:34 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Louis:
... I would take this further to point out that less people are offended by snuff pictures, and more by nudes. It almost seems to me that many people will trundle out the "what about the children" argument when a controversial nude appears, but don't make a peep when a blood-soaked snuff picture is posted. ... |
Two points on the "snuff" pictures...
1) There aren't that many that show up here in challenges. There have been some heated "discussions" in forum threads in the past pertaining to suicide, weapons, and even drugs for that matter. Suicide being perhaps the biggest button pusher (photo of girl in bathtub with "bloody" water I think was a noisy one if I remember correctly).
2) A big reason for noise about nude images is related to many at DPC that view/vote while using potentially monitored PC's (i.e. - workplace). Sadly, we're so desensitized to violence now that "snuff" images don't hit the radar screen at nearly the same level as nude images do in a workplace environment. Hence, a little bit less noise on complaints (along with the lesser frequency of appearance).
There are probably other factors but these are the first that come to mind. |
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12/03/2006 11:50:06 PM · #7 |
Louis, thanks for the first time listener comment. You gave a GREAT detailed opinion which is the kind of thing we podcasters dream about.
Art, yes, Judi did the interview nude. LOL
glad2badad, you make an interesting point. Most workplaces would probably be lax to reprimand someone for looking at a photo that depicted death in a challenge but would not hestitate to reprimand them for viewing nudity.
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to listen to the podcast and provide feedback. It's always appreciated.
As Judi pointed out, we had some technical difficulties during the interview and the last segment came out recorded at a higher volume level and I did a really bad job of catching it when I compiled the show. I could have fixed it but but the time I realized it the fix would have taken a long time and I was frankly lazy. Sorry!
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12/03/2006 11:51:49 PM · #8 |
the subject of nudity on DPC and whether or not nudity is scored fairly or is getting low voted due to a offended voters who find all nudity offensive.
I would just like to say, that we are all bios in some way or another, most of the shots entered get a ten from one person, and a 1 from another, there may be people who mark nudes lower, but there will also be those who love it, and mark it higher, and that goes for every subject.
If you had to chose between two equally good photos, one of a subject you liked and the other you did not, you would pick the one you liked, and that̢۪s the same for us all, and part of the challenge is to take a photo that will please the majority, so if you think that nude photos are not getting the votes, then you should consider a different subject.
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12/04/2006 02:13:34 AM · #9 |
Still having iTunes issues.
Will try again later. |
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12/04/2006 04:48:21 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Grandad:
the subject of nudity on DPC and whether or not nudity is scored fairly or is getting low voted due to a offended voters who find all nudity offensive.
I would just like to say, that we are all bios in some way or another, most of the shots entered get a ten from one person, and a 1 from another, there may be people who mark nudes lower, but there will also be those who love it, and mark it higher, and that goes for every subject.
If you had to chose between two equally good photos, one of a subject you liked and the other you did not, you would pick the one you liked, and that̢۪s the same for us all, and part of the challenge is to take a photo that will please the majority, so if you think that nude photos are not getting the votes, then you should consider a different subject. |
You're right, that exists with any subject but it's clear to me that nudity gets the biggest penalty by far. When was the last time you saw a nude photo win a ribbon that wasn't a nude specific challenge? It just doesn't happen. |
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12/04/2006 04:56:22 AM · #11 |
| They don't even do nude challenges anymore! |
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12/04/2006 06:00:38 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by yanko:
When was the last time you saw a nude photo win a ribbon that wasn't a nude specific challenge? It just doesn't happen. |
Could it be because out of the extremely few nudes you see in non-nude challenges, they just weren't as good as the ones that ribboned? The problem with nudes in non-nude challenges is that the photographers (or their cheering squad) will often claim that they didn't ribbon/score well/etc. because of voter bias. It's an easy out. As was briefly mentioned in the podcast, people have all kinds of biases they bring into the "voting booth". I would bet that babies and pets get hammered much worse than nudes. Where's our statistics people when you need them? LOL. |
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12/04/2006 06:11:30 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by yanko:
When was the last time you saw a nude photo win a ribbon that wasn't a nude specific challenge? It just doesn't happen. |
Could it be because out of the extremely few nudes you see in non-nude challenges, they just weren't as good as the ones that ribboned? The problem with nudes in non-nude challenges is that the photographers (or their cheering squad) will often claim that they didn't ribbon/score well/etc. because of voter bias. It's an easy out. As was briefly mentioned in the podcast, people have all kinds of biases they bring into the "voting booth". I would bet that babies and pets get hammered much worse than nudes. Where's our statistics people when you need them? LOL. |
I think there is a classic example this week in the Light on White challenge.. Whilst Alex Saberis' image was techincally pretty good, it got hammered by those who dont like nudity (although it recieved about a 1000 views duriung the challenge, oh my the hypocrisy).. Granted maybe it didnt deserve a ribbon, but really, look at some of the images in the 15-30 place bracket and his shot wipes the floor with them.
I like the bit about a "cheering squad". I bet a nude would score a lot better if one of the "darlings" of DPC went nude (Idnic etc). But thats a whole different issue with this place anyway... :-) |
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12/04/2006 06:39:05 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by marksimms:
Granted maybe it didnt deserve a ribbon, but really, look at some of the images in the 15-30 place bracket and his shot wipes the floor with them. |
You could say that about a lot of images in every challenge.
Also-- Kid, Pet, and Woody photos that suffer from voter bias don't enjoy the artificial inflation that the nudes get from voters "offsetting" the low votes.
As for number of views vs. score - I'm not sure how you claim hypocrisy when it is more likely that the people who liked the image are the ones going back and viewing it, IMO.
Again, I have nothing against nudes in any challenge - I just think the claims of biases are no more of a real issue than any other biases - they are just an inherent part of the voting scheme.
edit to add: What I meant by "cheering squad" was those who advocate for the submitter of the nude after the challenge. Not because of any friendship or that sort of thing. That's a different issue as you mentioned and another one I chalk up to part of the makeup of the voting populous.
Message edited by author 2006-12-04 06:45:43. |
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12/04/2006 06:58:05 AM · #15 |
Good stuff in this podcast, even if I think my voice sounds weird ;o) One or two little things - there's a few skype (or other IM) noises going on in the background, and at about 67:30 the conversation jumps a little as though there's a question omitted (plus the volume jumps up too). Otherwise, it's all good :o) When's the other (non-nudie)cast due?
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12/04/2006 07:07:49 AM · #16 |
One final observation about the podcast - Lee, you seemed to be indicating initially that your entry was unfairly voted low because of these nudity biases, then towards the end of the interview, you admit yourself that you didn't find the image appealing. I read the comments on it and many of them were fairly articulate about the flaws with the model and the image. And the "message" you were conveying with the image was, by your own admission, highly contrived and some even said it was a stereotype image - not a tribute of sorts. If all you were trying to represent was the year you were born, why not pick something that has something to do with you? Even if you wanted to use that event to represent the year, it could have been done with a more appealing and less charicature-ish image.
Maybe some of you see the nudity bias as something more because it provokes more direct comments and you equate that to the lower-than-you-think-it-deserved score? When compared to the other biases I mentioned, that perception is probably bolstered by the fact that very few people would bother to leave negative comments about someone's kid or dog while voting it down.
I also agree with whoever posted earlier about Judi's credibility is questionable when she extols the beauty of the human form, but describes genitals as "ugly". Seems very selective - and like you are the one who gets to decide where lines are drawn. No offense intended, just stating how I perceive your statements. |
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12/04/2006 07:10:47 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by Manic:
Good stuff in this podcast, even if I think my voice sounds weird ;o) One or two little things - there's a few skype (or other IM) noises going on in the background, and at about 67:30 the conversation jumps a little as though there's a question omitted (plus the volume jumps up too). Otherwise, it's all good :o) When's the other (non-nudie)cast due? |
I heard bubbles - like from a fish tank or water cooler - a couple times. ...and I agree, Manic, your voice sounds weird. ;-) j/k You did an excellent job, as did Lee and Judi. Although it would have been more interesting to have included someone representing the opposing view. |
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12/04/2006 07:19:00 AM · #18 |
They don't even do nude challenges anymore!
I am new to this site, and find the standard overall very high, so I̢۪m not really qualified to say too much on this subject, unless I go do some research, and I don̢۪t get a lot of spare time, I can not deny there is a certain beauty in the human body, but as with everything, there are only so many angels, and when you have seen it, it̢۪s kind of, bin there dun that, and becomes less interesting, if you won a ribbon with a shot of the empire state building, it̢۪s unlikely to win a number of ribbons, in the near future, even taken from different angels, and the more shots of the same become les and les interesting. I̢۪m only guessing here so I might just be wrong.
If I sound as though I̢۪m against nudity, I do not mean to, I am middle of the road, some I like, some I don̢۪t.
(I would take this further to point out that less people are offended by snuff pictures, and more by nudes. It almost seems to me that many people will trundle out the "what about the children" argument when a controversial nude appears, but don't make a peep when a blood-soaked snuff picture is posted. Disturbing.)
This point I find disturbing, and at a time when the theme of the next challenge is death, I̢۪m a cab driver, and work the night shift, last night I was driving along a country road, and come upon an accident, a car had hit a deer, the front of the car was smashed, and covered in blood, the deer was half under the back of the car and the bumper was just behind the car, I stopped to see if I could help, and actually thought of taking a shot for that challenge, it̢۪s not a pleasant sight, and I just did not want to photograph it, it could be an opportunity missed, but not what I would consider very good taste, if I think it would be in bad taste, I think others possibly would, the last thing I want is to offend any one.
I have not had time to see the shows, so can only comment on what I have read here.
Thanks for listening. Ken
te]
Message edited by author 2006-12-04 07:20:59.
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12/04/2006 07:20:29 AM · #19 |
We're not allowed to represent artworks here, so here's a link to the Classical Attitude.
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12/04/2006 07:49:04 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by raish:
We're not allowed to represent artworks here |
If it's your own artwork, you're allowed to put it in your portfolio, that's not an issue. If it's a photo of someone else's artwork, you can still put it in your portfolio, as long as it's not a challenge entry (or for sale on DPCPrints I think).
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12/04/2006 08:35:20 AM · #21 |
To clarify my position regarding my own photo:
No, I do not think my picture was remotely close to a ribbon shot. However, I also do not think it was deserving of twelve "1" votes. Only one other photo of mine has received more "1" votes than this and that was a horrible photo I took which scored 3.8. I'd expect that many "1"s there. This picture scored a 5.7 and I thought it was technically pretty good. Personally, I think twelve "1"s indicates that some voters were trying to tank the photo to send a message. And that's ok. I'm not upset. I was simply saying that I wished I knew if the score reflected a bad photograph (meaning poor lighting and composition) or if the score is reflecting poor choice of subject matter. I'd be curious to know what the score would be if those votes who just tried to tank it were removed and those votes who voted high just to try and bump me were removed. I'm curious which camp votes more (those that want to tank a photo or those who want to bump it). From the majority of comments I received, I'd say the low scores are not all because the photograph was poor quality but because the voter was offended.
Regarding sound quality issues:
I need to find a setting in skype that won't play sounds if I'm in a live chat. I was getting personal messages from someone while I was doing the interview with Judi so you hear the little bubble sounds as messages were popping up. I'll try and fix that in the future. Also, Judi and I had a dropped connection twice during the interview and admittedly we did not resume exactly where we left off (we forgot where we left off) so there probably is a little jump in the questions. I tried to do the best I could. Also the sound level on the last segment was a bit louder and, while I could of leveled it out, I got lazy and didn't go back to fix it. Sorry about that one.
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12/04/2006 09:58:44 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by lkn4truth:
Regarding sound quality issues:
I need to find a setting in skype that won't play sounds if I'm in a live chat. I was getting personal messages from someone while I was doing the interview with Judi so you hear the little bubble sounds as messages were popping up. I'll try and fix that in the future. Also, Judi and I had a dropped connection twice during the interview and admittedly we did not resume exactly where we left off (we forgot where we left off) so there probably is a little jump in the questions. I tried to do the best I could. Also the sound level on the last segment was a bit louder and, while I could of leveled it out, I got lazy and didn't go back to fix it. Sorry about that one. |
Nah worries, it was more of a FYI for future 'casts than a real gripe :o) The quality is definitely becoming more consistent now, which is a great sign. So... when's L2's podcast being released? *prod*
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12/04/2006 10:02:30 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Grandad:
the subject of nudity on DPC and whether or not nudity is scored fairly or is getting low voted due to a offended voters who find all nudity offensive.
I would just like to say, that we are all bios in some way or another, most of the shots entered get a ten from one person, and a 1 from another, there may be people who mark nudes lower, but there will also be those who love it, and mark it higher, and that goes for every subject.
If you had to chose between two equally good photos, one of a subject you liked and the other you did not, you would pick the one you liked, and that̢۪s the same for us all, and part of the challenge is to take a photo that will please the majority, so if you think that nude photos are not getting the votes, then you should consider a different subject. |
You're right, that exists with any subject but it's clear to me that nudity gets the biggest penalty by far. When was the last time you saw a nude photo win a ribbon that wasn't a nude specific challenge? It just doesn't happen. |
'Rollerball' by Ian Flemming... Published 1961
the year you were born. very taste fully done to
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12/04/2006 11:06:00 AM · #24 |
| The second podcast with Laurie's conducting a sepcial interview should be published later tonight. |
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12/04/2006 11:09:04 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Manic:
about 67:30 the conversation jumps a little as though there's a question omitted
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OMG they've discovered the missing 18 minutes!
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